3 ms·

I’m partial to sticking them to carbon atoms for storage (methane). How would this compare?

artemonster 1y ago
Lets go further and synthesize them to even longer and more complex carbohydrates so that they will be liquid at normal temperature and smell nice!
- troymc 1y ago
  Essential oils from plants (terpenes/terpenoids) are hydrogen-rich hydrocarbons and they smell nice. Menthol is an example, with a hydrogen mass fraction of about 12%. For comparison, water has a hydrogen mass fraction of about 11.2%. If you abandon the "smell nice" constraint, you can get an even higher hydrogen mass fraction. For example, n-pentane has a hydrogen mass fraction of about 16.8% and it's liquid at a pressure of 1 atmosphere and a temperature of 25 degrees Celsius, but it evaporates rapidly, so you need to keep it in a container. If you don't mind pressurizing the container a bit, you could put ammonia in there, and it has a hydrogen mass fraction of about 17.6%.
  - artemonster 1y ago
    It was a joke about gasoline
    - ricardobeat 1y ago
      Smells nice?
      - SoftTalker 1y ago
        Some people actually think it does. Especially before it had so much ethanol added. I don't think it smells particularly nice but it is definitely a memory trigger of being a small kid helping my dad get the lawn mower ready to cut the grass.
        toast0 1y ago
        Ethanol free gas definitely has a more enjoyable smell than gas with ethanol, but nice is maybe the wrong word.
  - bilsbie 1y ago
    I didn’t realize the mass fractions were that low. Is that correct??
    - philipkglass 1y ago
      Yes, because hydrogen atoms are so light. It takes 12 hydrogen atoms to equal the mass of a carbon atom and 16 hydrogen atoms to equal the mass of an oxygen atom.
      - bilsbie 1y ago
        It’s a surprisingly good rocket fuel to be mostly carbon then.
ViewTrick1002 1y ago
Carbon is annoying (expensive) to collect from the atmosphere. To work with a circular system you would need carbon collection on all combustion engines. Try fitting one on a plane. And now we’re down the path of fossil industry talking points where they will ”soon” implement carbon capture and storage. Another option is ammonia. The maritime industry is particularly interested in that one due to hydrogen taking up too much space if you want to go across oceans.
- chii 1y ago
  > need carbon collection on all combustion engine why not simply centralize the carbon collection and synthesis in some area (preferably where the sun shines a lot), then pipe/transport the resulting hydrocarbon fuel to where it is needed?
  - crote 1y ago
    Because centralized carbon collection isn't simple. About 0.0427% of the atmosphere is CO2, getting rid of the other 99.9573% you don't want to capture is rather tricky*. The most efficient way is probably by using plants - but that doesn't really scale. On the other hand, the output of a methane-powered fuel cell is 33% CO2 and 66% H2O - with the water being rather trivial to filter out. Even a dirty regular combustion engine outputs about 14% CO2.
- bilsbie 1y ago
  Check out terraform industries for some ground breaking concepts and prototypes on this.
- loeg 1y ago
  > To work with a circular system you would need carbon collection on all combustion engines. Try fitting one on a plane. Why would you need the carbon collection on planes? Surely a ground station would be equivalent and more sensible.
  - ViewTrick1002 1y ago

Lets go further and synthesize them to even longer and more complex carbohydrates so that they will be liquid at normal temperature and smell nice!

troymc 1y ago
Essential oils from plants (terpenes/terpenoids) are hydrogen-rich hydrocarbons and they smell nice. Menthol is an example, with a hydrogen mass fraction of about 12%. For comparison, water has a hydrogen mass fraction of about 11.2%. If you abandon the "smell nice" constraint, you can get an even higher hydrogen mass fraction. For example, n-pentane has a hydrogen mass fraction of about 16.8% and it's liquid at a pressure of 1 atmosphere and a temperature of 25 degrees Celsius, but it evaporates rapidly, so you need to keep it in a container. If you don't mind pressurizing the container a bit, you could put ammonia in there, and it has a hydrogen mass fraction of about 17.6%.
- artemonster 1y ago
  It was a joke about gasoline
  - ricardobeat 1y ago
    Smells nice?
    - SoftTalker 1y ago
      Some people actually think it does. Especially before it had so much ethanol added. I don't think it smells particularly nice but it is definitely a memory trigger of being a small kid helping my dad get the lawn mower ready to cut the grass.
      - toast0 1y ago
        Ethanol free gas definitely has a more enjoyable smell than gas with ethanol, but nice is maybe the wrong word.
- bilsbie 1y ago
  I didn’t realize the mass fractions were that low. Is that correct??
  - philipkglass 1y ago
    Yes, because hydrogen atoms are so light. It takes 12 hydrogen atoms to equal the mass of a carbon atom and 16 hydrogen atoms to equal the mass of an oxygen atom.
    - bilsbie 1y ago
      It’s a surprisingly good rocket fuel to be mostly carbon then.

ViewTrick1002 1y ago

Carbon is annoying (expensive) to collect from the atmosphere. To work with a circular system you would need carbon collection on all combustion engines. Try fitting one on a plane. And now we’re down the path of fossil industry talking points where they will ”soon” implement carbon capture and storage. Another option is ammonia. The maritime industry is particularly interested in that one due to hydrogen taking up too much space if you want to go across oceans.

chii 1y ago
> need carbon collection on all combustion engine why not simply centralize the carbon collection and synthesis in some area (preferably where the sun shines a lot), then pipe/transport the resulting hydrocarbon fuel to where it is needed?
- crote 1y ago
  Because centralized carbon collection isn't simple. About 0.0427% of the atmosphere is CO2, getting rid of the other 99.9573% you don't want to capture is rather tricky*. The most efficient way is probably by using plants - but that doesn't really scale. On the other hand, the output of a methane-powered fuel cell is 33% CO2 and 66% H2O - with the water being rather trivial to filter out. Even a dirty regular combustion engine outputs about 14% CO2.
bilsbie 1y ago
Check out terraform industries for some ground breaking concepts and prototypes on this.
loeg 1y ago
> To work with a circular system you would need carbon collection on all combustion engines. Try fitting one on a plane. Why would you need the carbon collection on planes? Surely a ground station would be equivalent and more sensible.
- ViewTrick1002 1y ago