6 ms·

It's the EU way - "We will keep holding the vote until we get the result that we want."

by gadders 1y ago

justinclift 1y ago
That approach has spectacularly backfired for the UK, as they used to do the same thing too. ;)
- cynicalsecurity 1y ago
  UK is much worse than EU in terms of privacy and encryption.
  - graemep 1y ago
    It will not be if chat control passes, and I am not sure it was true most of the time before (there was no significant change between Brexit and the Online Safety Act) There were similar problems in areas other than privacy and encryption, or indeed technology.
    - nickslaughter02 1y ago
      See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45274678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45274678
      - graemep 1y ago
        Key disclosure was law at least a decade before Brexit, so was compatible with EU law, and the other change (the chat control like one) was in the Online Safety Act (and has not been enforced so far because its not technically feasible), so that does not contradict my claim (if that was your intention).
  - Xelbair 1y ago
    It is, but i would rather take toothless UK's one over EU's Orwellian nightmare. UK's one is easily avoided. But reality is that NONE of those options should be even considered.
    - fluxusars 1y ago
      It might be easily avoided now, but it's easy for them to tighten the reins in the future.
  - hardlianotion 1y ago
    how so?
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  What do you mean by backfire?
  - anticensor 1y ago
    A massive unrest and protests.
  - tonyhart7 1y ago
    as another comment suggest "A massive unrest and protests." but not for chat control but another things, they have going much worse
aleph_minus_one 1y ago
> It's the EU way - "We will keep holding the vote until we get the result that we want." Exactly. There is a reason why more and more EU-skeptical movements gain traction in various EU countries.
- delusional 1y ago
  EU skepticism is at a 15 year low, and general approval hasnt been higher since 2007. Europeans in general like or is indifferent towards the EU.
  - aleph_minus_one 1y ago
    > EU skepticism is at a 15 year low, and general approval hasnt been higher since 2007. My observations are different.
    - danieljacksonno 1y ago
      Your clique might be more skeptical. Statistics show the population at large is not.
    - cianmm 1y ago
      Here’s some data. Skepticism is pretty low and approval is pretty high https://www.statista.com/statistics/1360333/euroscepticism-european-union-public-image/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1360333/euroscepticism-e...
      - graemep 1y ago
        Do those numbers include the UK when it was in the EU? Obviously removing a large pool of sceptics would shift the numbers. The "positive" number has recovered from a low in the wake of the Eurozone crisis but is still fallen significantly from the pre-crisis level of around 50%. It would be interesting to see a breakdown by country - The EU's own report suggests very big variations between countries: https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/90578b87-539a-11ef-acbc-01aa75ed71a1/language-en# https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/905...
yohannparis 1y ago
And who runs the EU? The MEPs and members of the countries government. It's not like it's a different country imposing their way onto us. Talk/contacts your ministers and MEPs if you want your voice to be represented.
- FpUser 1y ago
  >"Talk/contacts your ministers and MEPs if you want your voice to be represented." And be told to sod off. From Wikipedia: [0]-"Currently, there is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state." [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission
- Eddy_Viscosity2 1y ago
  > And who runs the EU? How difficult is it to run? How much money do you need? What are the barriers to success? Is it set up so that only the already rich and powerful can run and win (and therefore they are just pushing their own interests), and if not do you need considerable financial support (and therefore are beholden to the already rich and powerful who funded your campaign)?
  - Jensson 1y ago
    There are people with no backing, not even existing parties, that get elected as EU representatives. So its not that difficult to run if you have a platform some people care about. It is much easier to break into EU than the local governments, since EU has so much less power, so you have more weird people there.
- like_any_other 1y ago
  The problem is the indirection. Only the European Commission can propose legislation [1], so the legislative direction of the EU is entirely determined by them - MEPs can only slow it down. And citizens don't vote for the Commission directly, meaning there's a lot of backroom dealing in its selection. [1] Which also covers, I think, the act of repealing prior legislation.
bluecalm 1y ago
Don't forget "if we let people vote by some misfortune and their vote is opposite of what we wanted we will overrule it anyway".
p0w3n3d 1y ago
It's Not Who Votes That Counts, It's Who Counts The Votes - J.Stalin
- Y_Y 1y ago
  > In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes. - Mogens Jallberg Regarding your Stalin "quote", please see https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/stalin-vote-count-quote/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/stalin-vote-count-quote/ .
munksbeer 1y ago
> It's the EU way - "We will keep holding the vote until we get the result that we want." Please inform yourself or you're in danger of letting things happen through your ignorance. The commission is not pushing this. They're acting on instructions from a certain number of elected politicians. And, you're misleading others when you post stuff like this. None of us posting in these topics wants this proposal to pass. And in order to fight it, you've got to be correctly informed.
moffkalast 1y ago
Yeah the Commission really needs to go, MEPs need to be able to propose laws. That's really all there is to it to fix the entire situation.
- jonp888 1y ago
  Every country in the world has a "Commission". It's no different to the UK Civil Service or the various US Federal Governments. If it didn't exist then the EU would be unable to implement any of it's policies. Can you explain how MEP's directly proposing laws would affect this? I really don't get it. In parliamentary systems it's normal that virtually all legislation originates in the executive. In the British parliament at least, that a law is privately proposed and then becomes law is rare and normally restricted to very simple legislation on specific issues.
  - moffkalast 1y ago
    The EU doesn't implement any of its policies by itself, ergo it should not require an executive branch of its own. There is no EU army, no EU police. We already have an instance of that in each member state which is required to implement EU laws on its territory, the Council of Ministers coordinates on that afaik. The general process is a bit like this, simplified: - the Council of heads of state appoints the Commission - the Commission proposes laws - the Parliament approves laws - the Council of ministers implements them - the Court blocks any unconstitutional laws The problem has been for the longest time that the Commission appointments are not elected, somewhat mired in cronyism, and they keep proposing nonsense laws while the elected parliament can just stand there and vote no while not being able to suggest any legislation we actually need.
Flatterer3544 1y ago
While the EU foundation was laid out in a time much different to our modern times and the faults that rise with it, especially that the majority of the EU doesn't have the sway as a union should and that a single state can block all others. But at least when it comes to Chat Control, it is not EU level, it's member states pushing for it and at least for now EU blocking it, so at least for once it is a good thing and the minority of ~8 states can still block it for the majority, block it for all 27 states..
SAI_Peregrinus 1y ago
Not exclusive to the EU, the US does the same, as does the UK.

It's the EU way - "We will keep holding the vote until we get the result that we want."

justinclift 1y ago

That approach has spectacularly backfired for the UK, as they used to do the same thing too. ;)

cynicalsecurity 1y ago
UK is much worse than EU in terms of privacy and encryption.
- graemep 1y ago
  It will not be if chat control passes, and I am not sure it was true most of the time before (there was no significant change between Brexit and the Online Safety Act) There were similar problems in areas other than privacy and encryption, or indeed technology.
  - nickslaughter02 1y ago
    See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45274678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45274678
    - graemep 1y ago
      Key disclosure was law at least a decade before Brexit, so was compatible with EU law, and the other change (the chat control like one) was in the Online Safety Act (and has not been enforced so far because its not technically feasible), so that does not contradict my claim (if that was your intention).
- Xelbair 1y ago
  It is, but i would rather take toothless UK's one over EU's Orwellian nightmare. UK's one is easily avoided. But reality is that NONE of those options should be even considered.
  - fluxusars 1y ago
    It might be easily avoided now, but it's easy for them to tighten the reins in the future.
- hardlianotion 1y ago
  how so?
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
What do you mean by backfire?
- anticensor 1y ago
  A massive unrest and protests.
- tonyhart7 1y ago
  as another comment suggest "A massive unrest and protests." but not for chat control but another things, they have going much worse

aleph_minus_one 1y ago

> It's the EU way - "We will keep holding the vote until we get the result that we want." Exactly. There is a reason why more and more EU-skeptical movements gain traction in various EU countries.

delusional 1y ago
EU skepticism is at a 15 year low, and general approval hasnt been higher since 2007. Europeans in general like or is indifferent towards the EU.
- aleph_minus_one 1y ago
  > EU skepticism is at a 15 year low, and general approval hasnt been higher since 2007. My observations are different.
  - danieljacksonno 1y ago
    Your clique might be more skeptical. Statistics show the population at large is not.
  - cianmm 1y ago
    Here’s some data. Skepticism is pretty low and approval is pretty high https://www.statista.com/statistics/1360333/euroscepticism-european-union-public-image/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1360333/euroscepticism-e...
    - graemep 1y ago
      Do those numbers include the UK when it was in the EU? Obviously removing a large pool of sceptics would shift the numbers. The "positive" number has recovered from a low in the wake of the Eurozone crisis but is still fallen significantly from the pre-crisis level of around 50%. It would be interesting to see a breakdown by country - The EU's own report suggests very big variations between countries: https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/90578b87-539a-11ef-acbc-01aa75ed71a1/language-en# https://op.europa.eu/en/publication-detail/-/publication/905...

yohannparis 1y ago

And who runs the EU? The MEPs and members of the countries government. It's not like it's a different country imposing their way onto us. Talk/contacts your ministers and MEPs if you want your voice to be represented.

FpUser 1y ago
>"Talk/contacts your ministers and MEPs if you want your voice to be represented." And be told to sod off. From Wikipedia: [0]-"Currently, there is one member per member state, but members are bound by their oath of office to represent the general interest of the EU as a whole rather than their home state." [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Commission
Eddy_Viscosity2 1y ago
> And who runs the EU? How difficult is it to run? How much money do you need? What are the barriers to success? Is it set up so that only the already rich and powerful can run and win (and therefore they are just pushing their own interests), and if not do you need considerable financial support (and therefore are beholden to the already rich and powerful who funded your campaign)?
- Jensson 1y ago
  There are people with no backing, not even existing parties, that get elected as EU representatives. So its not that difficult to run if you have a platform some people care about. It is much easier to break into EU than the local governments, since EU has so much less power, so you have more weird people there.
like_any_other 1y ago
The problem is the indirection. Only the European Commission can propose legislation [1], so the legislative direction of the EU is entirely determined by them - MEPs can only slow it down. And citizens don't vote for the Commission directly, meaning there's a lot of backroom dealing in its selection. [1] Which also covers, I think, the act of repealing prior legislation.

bluecalm 1y ago

Don't forget "if we let people vote by some misfortune and their vote is opposite of what we wanted we will overrule it anyway".

p0w3n3d 1y ago

It's Not Who Votes That Counts, It's Who Counts The Votes - J.Stalin

Y_Y 1y ago
> In democracy it's your vote that counts; In feudalism it's your count that votes. - Mogens Jallberg Regarding your Stalin "quote", please see https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/stalin-vote-count-quote/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/stalin-vote-count-quote/ .

munksbeer 1y ago

> It's the EU way - "We will keep holding the vote until we get the result that we want." Please inform yourself or you're in danger of letting things happen through your ignorance. The commission is not pushing this. They're acting on instructions from a certain number of elected politicians. And, you're misleading others when you post stuff like this. None of us posting in these topics wants this proposal to pass. And in order to fight it, you've got to be correctly informed.

moffkalast 1y ago

Yeah the Commission really needs to go, MEPs need to be able to propose laws. That's really all there is to it to fix the entire situation.

jonp888 1y ago
Every country in the world has a "Commission". It's no different to the UK Civil Service or the various US Federal Governments. If it didn't exist then the EU would be unable to implement any of it's policies. Can you explain how MEP's directly proposing laws would affect this? I really don't get it. In parliamentary systems it's normal that virtually all legislation originates in the executive. In the British parliament at least, that a law is privately proposed and then becomes law is rare and normally restricted to very simple legislation on specific issues.
- moffkalast 1y ago
  The EU doesn't implement any of its policies by itself, ergo it should not require an executive branch of its own. There is no EU army, no EU police. We already have an instance of that in each member state which is required to implement EU laws on its territory, the Council of Ministers coordinates on that afaik. The general process is a bit like this, simplified: - the Council of heads of state appoints the Commission - the Commission proposes laws - the Parliament approves laws - the Council of ministers implements them - the Court blocks any unconstitutional laws The problem has been for the longest time that the Commission appointments are not elected, somewhat mired in cronyism, and they keep proposing nonsense laws while the elected parliament can just stand there and vote no while not being able to suggest any legislation we actually need.

Flatterer3544 1y ago

While the EU foundation was laid out in a time much different to our modern times and the faults that rise with it, especially that the majority of the EU doesn't have the sway as a union should and that a single state can block all others. But at least when it comes to Chat Control, it is not EU level, it's member states pushing for it and at least for now EU blocking it, so at least for once it is a good thing and the minority of ~8 states can still block it for the majority, block it for all 27 states..

SAI_Peregrinus 1y ago

Not exclusive to the EU, the US does the same, as does the UK.