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The Biden administration brokered and pressured Israel into a ceasefire that asymmetrically disfavored them. Israel exchanged 30 Hamas militants per Israeli hos

by Aunche 1y ago

The Biden administration brokered and pressured Israel into a ceasefire that asymmetrically disfavored them. Israel exchanged 30 Hamas militants per Israeli hostage. The ceasefire outlined a permanent resolution to the conflict, including Israel's full withdrawal from Gaza. They also pressured Israel to keep aid channels open during the war, which is exceptionally obvious now given significantly longer blockades and that famine broke out under Trump. The 2006 withdrawal from Gaza and Oslo Accords were also brokered by America. Israel would not have agreed to any of this without any security reassurances in the form of military aid. On the other hand, there is no guarantee that completely cutting off ties with Israel, would make anything better for Gazans. While it's possible there would be fewer civilian casualties, it's also possible there would be more if Israel switched to from precision strikes to ground invasions and dumb weapons.

isr 1y ago
[flagged]
Aeolun 1y ago
Like this whole thing has gone for 70 years in Israel. We already know what comes of the same strategy that was followed for all that time. Doubling down on it now isn’t going to change anything.
- Aunche 1y ago
  What are you talking about? The Camp David Accords and Israel–Jordan Peace Treaty were resounding successes. The Oslo Accords achieved mixed results but was still a major improvement. If there is a lesson to be learned, it is that requiring for Israel to unilaterally withdrawal was hopelessly naive.
  - aprilthird2021 1y ago
    Oslo was not an improvement. Palestine (the PLO/PA) gave up deterrence and renounced violence and the West Bank is now being annexed by far right Israelis. What did Israel give up in Oslo? Nothing
    - Aunche 1y ago
      This is incorrect. In 1992, the PLO had little military presence and were exiled abroad. The West Bank was governed by Israel. The Oslo Accords allowed the PLO to return and govern their people, including the establishment and expansion of their security forces.
      - aprilthird2021 1y ago
        They had little "declared" presence. But obviously, as anyone can tell you, the Palestinian militant movements are very guerilla and very grassroots, and renouncing violence in order to govern and have "security forces" while their enemies did not promise any such thing is not an improvement. The most obvious proof of this is the intifiada which followed Oslo
- SilverElfin 1y ago
  It has gone on and the people occupying Gaza and the West Bank rejected several two state solutions. And when given the right to vote, they placed Hamas into power and began an Iran backed rocket crusade against Israel. It was capped off by October 7. What solution can work except to let the one democratic society take over the entire region?
  - FireBeyond 1y ago
    I wonder if that had anything at all to do with the Israeli right backing Hamas at the time, because they were being shamed internationally (haha) by the previously militant PLA/PLO being more and more willing to negotiate. Netanyahu and his ilk didn't like the awkward questions of why the terrorists were negotiating but they weren't. So they started propping up Hamas. > And when given the right to vote, they placed Hamas into power and began an Iran backed rocket crusade against Israel. "They" started firing rockets, or Hamas? Hamas who is 30,000 of Gaza's 2.5M? Just when was that last election, again?
    - tguvot 1y ago
      Nobody in Israel propped up Hamas to win elections. Palestinian elections in 2006 were forced by USA (because democracy and stuff) despite objections from Israel and PA who were afraid that Hamas will win. When Hamas won elections and assembled government, USA sponsored coup executed by PLO. Coup succeeded in West Bank and failed in Gaza.
  - ngcazz 1y ago
    The people "occupying" Gaza and the West Bank are the Israelis, and the Palestinians rightfully refuse any agreements which strip them of their rights under the guise of generosity. Stop with the ahistorical equivocation.
  - isr 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
lokar 1y ago
They are using the “smart” bombs to precisely target and collapse civilian apartment buildings and hospitals on the thinnest pretext. How would “dumb” bombs be worse?
- klipt 1y ago
  It's very easy to kill people with dumb weapons especially in a dense city. Syria killed 10,000s of civilians in just a few weeks using only dumb artillery to shell a city: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacre The American incendiary bombing of Tokyo killed 100,000 people in a single night of bombing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_(10_March_1945) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_(10_March_194...
  - lokar 1y ago
    Yes, or course. And it’s also easy to kill them with smart weapons. It’s not ant all clear they care either way.
- LorenPechtel 1y ago
  Once again, that word "civilian". "Civilian" is defined by usage, not by original intent. And many of the apartment buildings that collapsed were because their foundations failed from the collapse of Hamas tunnels. Standard construction techniques are extremely vulnerable to damage from being undermined. Look at the pictures of the devastation--earlier on you could see the lines. Since then it has become far more blurred as Hamas tends to occupy or booby-trap just about everything. And it's not a thin pretext--every hospital is a Hamas base. Remember all the rejection of the idea that Hamas HQ was in bunkers under the main hospital? Repeated denials that any such bunkers existed. Israel had a very simple response: we built the bunkers, we know they exist. If hospitals were acting as they should be they would be open territory--the IDF could simply walk in and look around. Yet every time it's been a big fight. And I remember a supposed "hospital" strike where they actually hit a tunnel--got the commander they were after and got secondaries. A bomb that simply explodes underground isn't going to cause secondaries, so clearly they hit a tunnel that supposedly did not exist.
aprilthird2021 1y ago
> On the other hand, there is no guarantee that completely cutting off ties with Israel, would make anything better for Gazans. I agree with everything you said about Biden being practically better for Palestine, but this is nonsense. Israel would be a completely isolated state without US support. Even North Korea has China. The last completely isolated state in the world was South Africa whose apartheid ended as a result. It's not crazy to think Israelis might realize forcing people who have lived in the same country for generations to be stateless and voteless to preserve a "pure", "Jewish" state is not a worthwhile gamble if it costs them any connection to the outside world.
- SilverElfin 1y ago
  What do you mean by “pure Jewish state”? Israel has a 21% Arab population that is thriving and happy. In addition to 6% other non Jewish groups. So nearly 30% of the county isn’t Jewish.
- Aunche 1y ago
  Getting the Western world to agree to South Africa style sanctions towards Israel to their response to an attack is another level of unrealism over ending America's military and intelligence partnership. Even if that occurred, Israel is quite friendly with India that has only strengthened with October 7, and is capable of building a similar relationship with China.
istjohn 1y ago
Biden doesn't get credit for a few weeks of ceasefire after materially supporting the genocide for over a year.
- octopoc 1y ago
  Also, Biden explicitly stated that he is a Zionist[1]. [1] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/05/12/joe-biden-a-proud-zionist-since-1973_6671216_4.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/05/12/j...

by Aunche 1y ago

isr 1y ago

[flagged]

Aeolun 1y ago

Like this whole thing has gone for 70 years in Israel. We already know what comes of the same strategy that was followed for all that time. Doubling down on it now isn’t going to change anything.

Aunche 1y ago
What are you talking about? The Camp David Accords and Israel–Jordan Peace Treaty were resounding successes. The Oslo Accords achieved mixed results but was still a major improvement. If there is a lesson to be learned, it is that requiring for Israel to unilaterally withdrawal was hopelessly naive.
- aprilthird2021 1y ago
  Oslo was not an improvement. Palestine (the PLO/PA) gave up deterrence and renounced violence and the West Bank is now being annexed by far right Israelis. What did Israel give up in Oslo? Nothing
  - Aunche 1y ago
    This is incorrect. In 1992, the PLO had little military presence and were exiled abroad. The West Bank was governed by Israel. The Oslo Accords allowed the PLO to return and govern their people, including the establishment and expansion of their security forces.
    - aprilthird2021 1y ago
      They had little "declared" presence. But obviously, as anyone can tell you, the Palestinian militant movements are very guerilla and very grassroots, and renouncing violence in order to govern and have "security forces" while their enemies did not promise any such thing is not an improvement. The most obvious proof of this is the intifiada which followed Oslo
SilverElfin 1y ago
It has gone on and the people occupying Gaza and the West Bank rejected several two state solutions. And when given the right to vote, they placed Hamas into power and began an Iran backed rocket crusade against Israel. It was capped off by October 7. What solution can work except to let the one democratic society take over the entire region?
- FireBeyond 1y ago
  I wonder if that had anything at all to do with the Israeli right backing Hamas at the time, because they were being shamed internationally (haha) by the previously militant PLA/PLO being more and more willing to negotiate. Netanyahu and his ilk didn't like the awkward questions of why the terrorists were negotiating but they weren't. So they started propping up Hamas. > And when given the right to vote, they placed Hamas into power and began an Iran backed rocket crusade against Israel. "They" started firing rockets, or Hamas? Hamas who is 30,000 of Gaza's 2.5M? Just when was that last election, again?
  - tguvot 1y ago
    Nobody in Israel propped up Hamas to win elections. Palestinian elections in 2006 were forced by USA (because democracy and stuff) despite objections from Israel and PA who were afraid that Hamas will win. When Hamas won elections and assembled government, USA sponsored coup executed by PLO. Coup succeeded in West Bank and failed in Gaza.
- ngcazz 1y ago
  The people "occupying" Gaza and the West Bank are the Israelis, and the Palestinians rightfully refuse any agreements which strip them of their rights under the guise of generosity. Stop with the ahistorical equivocation.
- isr 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]

lokar 1y ago

They are using the “smart” bombs to precisely target and collapse civilian apartment buildings and hospitals on the thinnest pretext. How would “dumb” bombs be worse?

klipt 1y ago
It's very easy to kill people with dumb weapons especially in a dense city. Syria killed 10,000s of civilians in just a few weeks using only dumb artillery to shell a city: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Hama_massacre The American incendiary bombing of Tokyo killed 100,000 people in a single night of bombing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_(10_March_1945) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Tokyo_(10_March_194...
- lokar 1y ago
  Yes, or course. And it’s also easy to kill them with smart weapons. It’s not ant all clear they care either way.
LorenPechtel 1y ago
Once again, that word "civilian". "Civilian" is defined by usage, not by original intent. And many of the apartment buildings that collapsed were because their foundations failed from the collapse of Hamas tunnels. Standard construction techniques are extremely vulnerable to damage from being undermined. Look at the pictures of the devastation--earlier on you could see the lines. Since then it has become far more blurred as Hamas tends to occupy or booby-trap just about everything. And it's not a thin pretext--every hospital is a Hamas base. Remember all the rejection of the idea that Hamas HQ was in bunkers under the main hospital? Repeated denials that any such bunkers existed. Israel had a very simple response: we built the bunkers, we know they exist. If hospitals were acting as they should be they would be open territory--the IDF could simply walk in and look around. Yet every time it's been a big fight. And I remember a supposed "hospital" strike where they actually hit a tunnel--got the commander they were after and got secondaries. A bomb that simply explodes underground isn't going to cause secondaries, so clearly they hit a tunnel that supposedly did not exist.

aprilthird2021 1y ago

> On the other hand, there is no guarantee that completely cutting off ties with Israel, would make anything better for Gazans. I agree with everything you said about Biden being practically better for Palestine, but this is nonsense. Israel would be a completely isolated state without US support. Even North Korea has China. The last completely isolated state in the world was South Africa whose apartheid ended as a result. It's not crazy to think Israelis might realize forcing people who have lived in the same country for generations to be stateless and voteless to preserve a "pure", "Jewish" state is not a worthwhile gamble if it costs them any connection to the outside world.

SilverElfin 1y ago
What do you mean by “pure Jewish state”? Israel has a 21% Arab population that is thriving and happy. In addition to 6% other non Jewish groups. So nearly 30% of the county isn’t Jewish.
Aunche 1y ago
Getting the Western world to agree to South Africa style sanctions towards Israel to their response to an attack is another level of unrealism over ending America's military and intelligence partnership. Even if that occurred, Israel is quite friendly with India that has only strengthened with October 7, and is capable of building a similar relationship with China.

istjohn 1y ago

Biden doesn't get credit for a few weeks of ceasefire after materially supporting the genocide for over a year.

octopoc 1y ago
Also, Biden explicitly stated that he is a Zionist[1]. [1] https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/05/12/joe-biden-a-proud-zionist-since-1973_6671216_4.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2024/05/12/j...