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I would really be interested in desktop if so many items weren't non-upgradable. It's bad enough the CPU and GPU, but understandable, cannot be upgraded, you're

by hk1337 1y ago

I would really be interested in desktop if so many items weren't non-upgradable. It's bad enough the CPU and GPU, but understandable, cannot be upgraded, you're stuck with the selected memory at purchase too. Even the laptops have up-gradable memory and that's typically where you would see memory soldered to the board.

reactordev 1y ago
You lack the knowledge of the AI Max chip. You can’t have slots. It requires soldered memory because it’s unified.
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  "because it's unified" is definitely not the reason.
  - hedora 1y ago
    Here’s a unified AMD with an NPU, and socketed ram: https://www.bee-link.com/products/beelink-ser8-8845hs https://www.bee-link.com/products/beelink-ser8-8845hs Note that it’s two generations old, and the newer ones have soldered ram.
    - ben-schaaf 1y ago
      Every AMD and Intel APU has had unified memory for many generations, as have mobile devices. It's sad how many people Apple's marketing has misled about something that's been standard in the industry for ages.
- wpm 1y ago
  It requires soldered memory because no one makes LPCAMM2 modules for LPDDR5x
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    https://www.cdw.com/product/lenovo-lpddr5x-module-64-gb-camm-7500-mhz/8066991 https://www.cdw.com/product/lenovo-lpddr5x-module-64-gb-camm... https://www.cdw.com/product/crucial-lpddr5x-module-64-gb-lpcamm2-3750-mhz/8317578 https://www.cdw.com/product/crucial-lpddr5x-module-64-gb-lpc... They do.
    - wpm 1y ago
      Backordered, sure. Call me when I can go to Microcenter and pick up a set.
      - Dylan16807 1y ago
        https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadp/thinkpad-p1-gen-7-16-inch-intel/len101t0107?sortBy=Recommended https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadp/th... That particular source is sold out but it's not where a computer manufacturer is getting parts. The availability is real. You can buy a thinkpad with LPCAMM2 right now, and in fact you've been able to buy that laptop for over a year. And you can get it with 64GB modules, which is what you'd need to set up 128GB on a 256 bit memory bus.
- abrookewood 1y ago
  Please don't turn this site into Slashdot or Reddit. You can make your point without being rude.
  - reactordev 1y ago
    Rude wasn’t my intent, it’s just a weird chip.
cyanydeez 1y ago
I don't understand how many parts people really upgrade these days. For one, the memory is soldered on because it's integral to the GPU the same way it's integral to the Apple's M3, and can be used the same up to 96gb. At the form factor, what else are you expecting to upgrade over it's lifetime? This statement makes it sound like there's a lot to upgrade when it's mostly just memory people seem confused about.
- stevage 1y ago
  Framework's whole reputation is based on upgradeable, modular design right? It's certainly surprising to me that their desktop seems to be the opposite of that.
  - cyanydeez 1y ago
    It's not surprising if you understand that minipcs are basically all just using laptop parts. Really, it'd be surprising if they didn't go into that corner. Chinese makers have proliferated because there is a market for small devices that have external monitors, etc. I think you're using your 2000's brain and not updating your firmware to the modern consumer appliance. We're watching computer tech growth decline sharply with fewer leaps and bounds. So when I hear about this upgrade stuff, it's just sounds like 'get off my lawn' when it comes to this specific type of mini pc.
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      > It's not surprising if you understand that minipcs are basically all just using laptop parts. That makes it more surprising. It's not that desktops went off in a different direction. Desktops are moving closer to their area of expertise and yet they are unable to apply that expertise.
    - AshamedCaptain 1y ago
      But their own laptops happen to have upgrade-able memory. Truly, it is just unjustifiable.
zargon 1y ago
If they made the memory upgradable it would defeat the purpose of the machine, since memory modules can’t hit the same speed as soldered memory. If you’re buying this you’re probably maxing out the memory to start with. 128GB is borderline barely adequate for local LLMs.
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  You can get DIMMs that do 8000 right now, and LPCAMM2 should become capable of even higher speeds even though it's "only" 7500 at the moment. Framework says in their blog post that they talked to AMD about using LPCAMM2 and the engineers "finally concluded that it was in fact not possible without massively downclocking the memory". And okay, I believe them, but I'm pointing my blame a lot closer to the CPU than the memory modules.
  - ThatPlayer 1y ago
    The other difference with AMD's AI Max is that it's using a 256-bit bus compared to LPCAMM2's 128-bit bus. https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1iyfrjv/comment/meuhc47/ https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1iyfrjv/comment/...
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      > The other difference with AMD's AI Max is that it's using a 256-bit bus compared to LPCAMM2's 128-bit bus. Right, you'd put in two of them. Half your data lines run to each module, and you can put them both tight against the socket, so no routing issues there. If there's a control line that would need to be shared across both modules, and it can't be shared in a fast way, or there's some weird pin arrangement that causes problems... oh look I'm back to blaming the CPU.
- wpm 1y ago
  LPCAMM2 can, its a shame Framework couldn't make it happen.
- _aavaa_ 1y ago
daemonologist 1y ago
I agree, but here's a quote from the CEO explaining (to some degree) the choice: “So we did actually ask AMD about this the first time they told us about Strix Halo. It was literally our first question: ‘How do we get modular memory? We are Framework after all.’ And they didn’t say no actually, they did assign one of their technical architects to really really go deep on this—they ran simulations, they ran studies, and they just determined it’s not possible with Strix Halo to do LPCAMM. The signal integrity doesn’t work out because of how that memory’s fanning out over the 256-bit bus.” (from https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY?feature=shared&t=445 https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY?feature=shared&t=445 via https://www.ifixit.com/News/108396/framework-let-us-in-for-an-early-teardown-of-the-refreshingly-open-framework-desktop https://www.ifixit.com/News/108396/framework-let-us-in-for-a...)
- mrheosuper 1y ago
  I never understand this justification. If the tech does not allow, then don't do it if it's against your own core value. Instead, they join the quick cash grab AI-train.
  - tenuousemphasis 1y ago
    So don't buy it. Plenty of people aren't bothered and love it.
  - theshrike79 1y ago
    This is literally the best option to run Linux on M-series Mac class hardware. Even though it's not upgradable (because of the laws of physics), it's still a positive development.

by hk1337 1y ago

reactordev 1y ago

You lack the knowledge of the AI Max chip. You can’t have slots. It requires soldered memory because it’s unified.

Dylan16807 1y ago
"because it's unified" is definitely not the reason.
- hedora 1y ago
  Here’s a unified AMD with an NPU, and socketed ram: https://www.bee-link.com/products/beelink-ser8-8845hs https://www.bee-link.com/products/beelink-ser8-8845hs Note that it’s two generations old, and the newer ones have soldered ram.
  - ben-schaaf 1y ago
    Every AMD and Intel APU has had unified memory for many generations, as have mobile devices. It's sad how many people Apple's marketing has misled about something that's been standard in the industry for ages.
wpm 1y ago
It requires soldered memory because no one makes LPCAMM2 modules for LPDDR5x
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  https://www.cdw.com/product/lenovo-lpddr5x-module-64-gb-camm-7500-mhz/8066991 https://www.cdw.com/product/lenovo-lpddr5x-module-64-gb-camm... https://www.cdw.com/product/crucial-lpddr5x-module-64-gb-lpcamm2-3750-mhz/8317578 https://www.cdw.com/product/crucial-lpddr5x-module-64-gb-lpc... They do.
  - wpm 1y ago
    Backordered, sure. Call me when I can go to Microcenter and pick up a set.
    - Dylan16807 1y ago
      https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadp/thinkpad-p1-gen-7-16-inch-intel/len101t0107?sortBy=Recommended https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/p/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpadp/th... That particular source is sold out but it's not where a computer manufacturer is getting parts. The availability is real. You can buy a thinkpad with LPCAMM2 right now, and in fact you've been able to buy that laptop for over a year. And you can get it with 64GB modules, which is what you'd need to set up 128GB on a 256 bit memory bus.
abrookewood 1y ago
Please don't turn this site into Slashdot or Reddit. You can make your point without being rude.
- reactordev 1y ago
  Rude wasn’t my intent, it’s just a weird chip.

cyanydeez 1y ago

I don't understand how many parts people really upgrade these days. For one, the memory is soldered on because it's integral to the GPU the same way it's integral to the Apple's M3, and can be used the same up to 96gb. At the form factor, what else are you expecting to upgrade over it's lifetime? This statement makes it sound like there's a lot to upgrade when it's mostly just memory people seem confused about.

stevage 1y ago
Framework's whole reputation is based on upgradeable, modular design right? It's certainly surprising to me that their desktop seems to be the opposite of that.
- cyanydeez 1y ago
  It's not surprising if you understand that minipcs are basically all just using laptop parts. Really, it'd be surprising if they didn't go into that corner. Chinese makers have proliferated because there is a market for small devices that have external monitors, etc. I think you're using your 2000's brain and not updating your firmware to the modern consumer appliance. We're watching computer tech growth decline sharply with fewer leaps and bounds. So when I hear about this upgrade stuff, it's just sounds like 'get off my lawn' when it comes to this specific type of mini pc.
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    > It's not surprising if you understand that minipcs are basically all just using laptop parts. That makes it more surprising. It's not that desktops went off in a different direction. Desktops are moving closer to their area of expertise and yet they are unable to apply that expertise.
  - AshamedCaptain 1y ago
    But their own laptops happen to have upgrade-able memory. Truly, it is just unjustifiable.

zargon 1y ago

If they made the memory upgradable it would defeat the purpose of the machine, since memory modules can’t hit the same speed as soldered memory. If you’re buying this you’re probably maxing out the memory to start with. 128GB is borderline barely adequate for local LLMs.

Dylan16807 1y ago
You can get DIMMs that do 8000 right now, and LPCAMM2 should become capable of even higher speeds even though it's "only" 7500 at the moment. Framework says in their blog post that they talked to AMD about using LPCAMM2 and the engineers "finally concluded that it was in fact not possible without massively downclocking the memory". And okay, I believe them, but I'm pointing my blame a lot closer to the CPU than the memory modules.
- ThatPlayer 1y ago
  The other difference with AMD's AI Max is that it's using a 256-bit bus compared to LPCAMM2's 128-bit bus. https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1iyfrjv/comment/meuhc47/ https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/1iyfrjv/comment/...
  - Dylan16807 1y ago
    > The other difference with AMD's AI Max is that it's using a 256-bit bus compared to LPCAMM2's 128-bit bus. Right, you'd put in two of them. Half your data lines run to each module, and you can put them both tight against the socket, so no routing issues there. If there's a control line that would need to be shared across both modules, and it can't be shared in a fast way, or there's some weird pin arrangement that causes problems... oh look I'm back to blaming the CPU.
wpm 1y ago
LPCAMM2 can, its a shame Framework couldn't make it happen.
_aavaa_ 1y ago

daemonologist 1y ago

I agree, but here's a quote from the CEO explaining (to some degree) the choice: “So we did actually ask AMD about this the first time they told us about Strix Halo. It was literally our first question: ‘How do we get modular memory? We are Framework after all.’ And they didn’t say no actually, they did assign one of their technical architects to really really go deep on this—they ran simulations, they ran studies, and they just determined it’s not possible with Strix Halo to do LPCAMM. The signal integrity doesn’t work out because of how that memory’s fanning out over the 256-bit bus.” (from https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY?feature=shared&t=445 https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY?feature=shared&t=445 via https://www.ifixit.com/News/108396/framework-let-us-in-for-an-early-teardown-of-the-refreshingly-open-framework-desktop https://www.ifixit.com/News/108396/framework-let-us-in-for-a...)

mrheosuper 1y ago
I never understand this justification. If the tech does not allow, then don't do it if it's against your own core value. Instead, they join the quick cash grab AI-train.
- tenuousemphasis 1y ago
  So don't buy it. Plenty of people aren't bothered and love it.
- theshrike79 1y ago
  This is literally the best option to run Linux on M-series Mac class hardware. Even though it's not upgradable (because of the laws of physics), it's still a positive development.