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>Where it exists you can see that there is tremendous demand for it. Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time, or they w

>Where it exists you can see that there is tremendous demand for it. Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time, or they witness (or experience) violence, or some other anti-social behavior sours the whole thing. I spent some time in NYC during the Giuliani years, after the city did a lot of work cleaning it all up: stopping turnstile jumpers, removing graffiti, more police, etc. It was great. You'd get the occasional guy that jumps on, makes a speech about how he's raising money for something or other, and walks around trying to sell chocolate bars. And there was the occasional dangerous person, insisting on getting up in your face. So long as this sort of behavior remains at a very low level, something like maybe once every couple of weeks, that's probably okay. But public transit loses all appeal if it happens often. If it rises to the level of violence, everybody starts thinking about the suburbs. Public transit requires a certain level of unspoken agreement. "We will all behave in this manner." If this unspoken agreement is broken often enough, then it must be enforced. If it is not, and other options present themselves, people will choose the other options. This happened en masse many decades ago in America. Those that could decamped for other places where their social expectations were met. I'm a big supporter of urbanism. I loathe the time I spend in my car, and I don't even have that far of a commute, but I have zero other options if I want to live where crime is low and the schools aren't dysfunctional. Until this is addressed, there is no argument about commuter density or efficiency of movement or anything else the proponents of public transit like to talk about that will make a lick of difference. The worst argument anybody can make is "but that's just life in the big city!" If so, then I'm not going to live and raise my family in the big city. Airy-fairy principles of efficiency or an arguable notion of convenience will not take precedence over safety and quality.

okdood64 1y ago
Thank you for this. This is precisely my issue with public transport in the US (granted my experience has only been in SF, Oakland, NYC and Chicago). It’s emotionally taxing when you need to keep your guard up all the time. I can’t even imagine how much worse it would be on someone if they had kids to tow around as well.
- oldjim798 1y ago
  How is driving not emotionally taxing the exact same way? Driving with my kids is fucking terrifying. I have 2 under 6, and I have to lock them into these giant car seats to keep them safe (to be clear I like modern car seats, their designs just remind me how vulnerable kids are). Every time I go through a intersection I worry what happens if someone runs the red and smashes into our side. I no longer speed when I drive because I want the kids to be safe and the insane rage other drivers send our way because I'm going 40 km/hr on a 40 km/hr road. I've had driver try to force us off the road, tail gate us hard, pass us across double yellow lines, scream at us. Driving is exhausting.
  - deltarholamda 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - maleldil 1y ago
      I don't know where the AI summary is getting the numbers from, but there was an article recently in the front page with more statistics about this: https://ourworldindata.org/britain-safest-roads-history https://ourworldindata.org/britain-safest-roads-history.
    - oldjim798 1y ago
      When you compare driving to almost every other form of transportation it is wildly dangerous. https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-community/safety-topics/deaths-by-transportation-mode/ https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-community/safety-topics... "Passenger vehicles are by far the most dangerous motorized transportation option compared. Over the last 10 years, passenger vehicle death rate per 100,000,000 passenger miles was over 60 times higher than for buses, 20 times higher than for passenger trains, and 1,200 times higher than for scheduled airlines. Other comparisons are possible based on passenger trips, vehicle miles, or vehicle trips, but passenger miles is the most commonly used basis for comparing the safety of various modes of travel." >Your safety is at least somewhat in your control Have you ever driven on roads? What control do I have that someone reading their phone instead of looking where their giant SUV is going while speeding
oldjim798 1y ago
All this applies to cars as well. Drivers are wild and driving is absurdly dangerous. I hate driving because other drives act like they are the car in the world - particularly post covid. Here in Toronto turn signals feel like they have been uninstalled. We have a ton of street racers tearing up the roads. I see motorcyclists pop wheelies and rip down major streets weekly. All of your complaints about lack of pro social behavior applies to drivers too.
- LexiMax 1y ago
  I've had panhandlers walk up to me at stop lights in suburban sprawl cities. I find it very hard to believe that the GP hasn't experienced the same.
  - tengbretson 1y ago
    Would you agree that being able to drive away from that situation is different from sharing space in a confined metal tube for 20+ minutes?
    - woodruffw 1y ago
      My experience is that panhandlers on the road like to post up at long red lights, at which point you’re effectively forced to share space with them for N minutes unless you intend to run a red light. In the subway, you just change cars. (I’m riding the subway right now, and two people just changed cars because of weak A/C.)
    - LexiMax 1y ago
      If you're sitting next to a homeless person for 20+ minutes you're not in danger, you're just uncomfortable sharing space with the less fortunate.
      - inglor_cz 1y ago
        "you're just uncomfortable sharing space with the less fortunate." This is the sort of vacuous moral posturing that loses elections and if it wins them, it makes cities unlivable. Why should I be fine sitting next to someone who shit his pants several times and likely has lice and scabies? And yes, it occassionally happens even in Czech public transport. If you not just tolerate this, but scold people for being disgusted, the public transport system will lose the middle class and with it, any benevolence of the tax payer. Civilizations always have some minimum for public behavior. Not stinking to high heaven in closed spaces is one of them. If you fight against such bare minimums and tell people that they are bad people for requiring them, you are promoting pure, unadulterated barbarism.
panick21_ 1y ago
> Public transit requires a certain level of unspoken agreement. "We will all behave in this manner." That literally all of society. The American idea that you live in suburban home that is a quasi gated community, drive into a parking garage, then go up to an office, only interact with workmates and then driving back out with no social interaction other then work is just not how most society worked for all of history. And its not how the US worked until the 1960. The reality is, violence and death on the roads, is far more common then on public transport. There are tons road rage incidents, an absurdly high number. Those lead to all kinds of problems and quite often shootings. You are in more danger then on public transport generally. And yet I almost never hear about that when Americans talk about transport policy. But yes, there does need to be rules enforcement. But on the other hand its also true that the US often has very user-hostile design principles in pretty much every aspect of their city design and policing policy. And that often invites or re-enforces bad behavior.
- Earw0rm 1y ago
  And social policy. You have too many people wandering around in a psychological state one negative interaction away from an incident that could easily escalate to murder. Such people exist in every country, yes, but fewer in most places.
Fricken 1y ago
My daily bicycle commute takes me right through the heart of my city's homeless district, and like with many cities things have gotten a lot worse since COVID. Cars are far and away the biggest threat to my safety, and the source of all the harrassment I receive while out in public. I mean, every now and then some guttersnipe blurts out incoherencies at me, but that's not something to be afraid of. I regard driving, in cities, to be an inherently anti-social activity. If you want a healthy community with safe and lively streets you got to be out in it, not sealed off in a protective cage.
- deltarholamda 1y ago
  Do you have a wife? Kids? Would you let them bicycle through the homeless district? I don't get hassled either, but it's not about me. My job as a husband and father is to protect my family.
  - Fricken 1y ago
    If I see your wife and kids in trouble I'll intervene, don't worry. Of course, motor vehicle crashes are the second biggest killer of kids after guns. I don't know where homeless people sit on the threat scale but it's a negligibly small amount.
    - deltarholamda 1y ago
      That's a non-answer, so I assume that's a "no" on the wife, kids, and/or letting them pedal through tent city. In any event, homeless people are low on the threat scale because people generally avoid riding a Schwinn through homeless encampments, which should be perfectly obvious but I guess not.
      - Fricken 1y ago
        I don't have kids. The homeless district is easy to avoid, and there's a k-12 school right on the edge of it with many kids walking, cycling and taking the bus to school. I've never heard of a serious incident involving homeless people. Here's a fun fact for you: statistically cyclists live longer than non-cyclists, and that's in spite of all the hazards they have to deal with while out riding.
dbingham 1y ago
This all comes down to "We can't have nice things in America because of our toxic mix of individualism and capitalism." Because we insist on trying to privatize everything, refuse to provide a safe floor for people, and make poverty and mental health challenges moral issues (meaning we degrade people who experience them and leave them to fend for themselves) we create an environment where true community is impossible. Unless, of course, we apply authoritarian and abusive policing controls against those we've left behind, rounding them up and sending them somewhere else. Which of course achieves a temporary "peace" at the cost of a deep insecurity and fear, because we all know the moment we slip or step out of line, we're gone. It really is toxic and has led directly to society breaking down to the point where we're now falling into full scale fascism.
- drstewart 1y ago
  [flagged]
- rurban 1y ago
  You can have nice things also. Eg the inner city of Park City, Utah is also car free, and busses are running for free in the winter season.
dropofwill 1y ago
Pontevedra is at least 100 times smaller then NYC, it's more comparable to the suburbs that you're moving your family to.
- verzali 1y ago
  Yep, population of 80,000 vs 8,000,000.
rcpt 1y ago
> Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time OP is right. The demand is huge and supply is tiny. Even with those scary panhandlers people are jamming onto public transport (when it actually exists) and going far far out of their way to experience walkable areas. > zero other options if I want to live where crime is low and the schools aren't dysfunctional Crime in NYC is exceedingly low and the schools are great. Why don't you simply move to Chelsea or the Upper West Side?
- deltarholamda 1y ago
  >Why don't you simply move to Chelsea or the Upper West Side? Because I'm not in the top 0.1%. "Why don't you just move into a $2-5 million dollar home?" is an astonishing take.
  - rafram 1y ago
    The UWS above 96th is quite affordable. Manhattan Valley is pretty, safe, and close to the park.
    - deltarholamda 1y ago
      According to Zillow they start at about a million for 2/1 apartments and go up from there. We have completely different definitions for affordable, unless $250K+/yr jobs are just falling out of the sky.
      - sombrero_john 1y ago
        Renting is perfectly fine. NYC has the strongest tenant protection laws in the country.
        kortilla 1y ago
        Renting has to support the mortgage on that. The only difference between being able to afford a house and affording rent is having the capital for a down payment
hiddencost 1y ago
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- deltarholamda 1y ago
  "Nobody I know voted for Nixon." Many cities have been losing population for a while, regardless of your intimate knowledge of what other people do or don't feel. Incredulity isn't really much of a solution if you want to address issues that people might have.
  - Zigurd 1y ago
    Somebody ought to tell the people trying to solve a housing shortage that depopulation is the real problem.
    - deltarholamda 1y ago
      There is "housing shortage" and "affordable housing shortage", and these are two things that sound similar but are actually very different.
  - woodruffw 1y ago
    I think it’s worth noting “cities that are losing population” and “cities that have underdeveloped public transportation” correlate closely.
oldsecondhand 1y ago
The problems you mentioned are policing and welfare problems, both things that America sucks at.
- okr 1y ago
  Or it becomes too expensive like in germany. Then it will suck too.
  - eCa 1y ago
    €58 a month for all local/regional public transport is very cheap. Where I am, in another part of western Europe, a single-region ticket is normally ~30-50% more expensive than the all-of-Germany ticket.
    - okr 1y ago
      It is subsidized. Through taxes you pay the full prize anyways. Just that someone else than you who decides, what do with your money, like subsidized public transport.
      - GrzegorzWidla 1y ago
        Nothing is more subsidised than cars and their infrastructure.
c22 1y ago
Are you kidding? I see antisocial, dangerous, and violent behaviors from other people driving cars every single day...
CPLX 1y ago
I took my kid to school in Downtown Brooklyn on the subway today. It was great. New York is great and the subway is amazing. I remain mystified by what I see people say on cable news or podcasts. Or maybe everyone secretly just really loves strip malls, who knows.
- dfee 1y ago
  From a website I read last night: > Mountain Life > I love the fact you can drive down the road and wave at friends you know.....and hell you probably will be drinking a beer with them later that day. I love the fact everyone is pretty laid back and neighbors know each other..Anyone for BBQ?. I enjoy the fact I can chill out relax NOT hearing the city noise. I love the fact at night you can look up and see the night sky and here coyote's screeching in the background. I respect the fact I grew up in an environment that was NOT surrounded by pavement and was NOT surrounded by buildings. There was endless landscapes and forests of exploration. I could find any tree and build my fort. I could spend hours hiking with my dog and find no end. I could take a nap in a field of grass and not worry someone would cross my path. The Santa Cruz Mountains have so much to offer and I feel like there is so much to learn about them. https://santacruzmtns.com/About.html https://santacruzmtns.com/About.html
  - bee_rider 1y ago
    A bit weird they decided to include some barbs about how their environment was NOT like some city, even when trying to be positive.
    - Der_Einzige 1y ago
      Living rent free in their minds. New Yorkers don't think about them at all, just like the scene from Mad Men.
      - dfee 1y ago
        I think you're right. It's strange getting into a taxi and seeing NY1 – there really is minimal consideration of the rest of the country.
bix6 1y ago
I hate public transit because it takes 2x+ the time to get anywhere since it’s such an afterthought. The routes are horrible and the vehicles too infrequent. When I lived in Berlin I could get anywhere in the city within 15-30 mins, it was insane. I ride my bike or e-bike everywhere I can. Cars are the worst.
everdrive 1y ago
>The worst argument anybody can make is "but that's just life in the big city!" A cousin was visiting us in our nice suburb. We had a slow, not-busy road we walked on when we lived there, and we'd wave to anyone; neighbors, vehicles, etc. Our cousin was sort of uncomfortable, and asked "do you know all these people?" I explained that we knew some of them but were just being polite and friendly. She explained that that were she lived (Boston) you just couldn't safely wave at just anybody you passed. I don't think this occurred to her at the time, but that means she lives in a pretty awful place. Why exactly would it be _dangerous_ to wave at someone in a friendly way? There's only one answer to that question; because you live around violent or unstable people. Before anyone says I'm just privileged, I've lived in rough areas before, and I can't fathom why anyone would put up with that sort of daily violence, noise and general degradation of quality of life if they otherwise didn't have to. We ultimately ended up moving out of the city just like you said because the crime was getting worse year by year. Do you want some drunk kid blasting his bass right outside your house at 11pm on a weeknight? (for hours, no less) And if you go and try to get him to turn it down there's a significant chance you'll be met with violence? Or people harassing your wife if she's ever "foolish" enough to walk down the street without you? Or to need to explain to your wife "hey, we can't walk through that group of kids, I can't really defend you against more than two attackers." All of these were regular issues for us. Home invasions on our block started ramping up, we knew people who were attacked, shot, killed, just while walking home. To your point, this wasn't academic. It can be quite the 3rd rail to try to explain _why_ the violence in the city is bad, what is the cause and what is the solution. But when we're talking about my family's safety, I just don't care. I'm not going to live like that, and would have done almost anything to get my family out of that sort of situation. I really can't even fathom people who would write these things off. "Sure, my wife might be murdered and abused in a home invasion, but there are really cool walk-able restaurants!" It's pathological.
- Zigurd 1y ago
  The semi rural and rural US south is, in many places, much more dangerous based on crime statistics. Stranger danger is also much less of a factor than is perceived.
  - 1y ago
dfxm12 1y ago
Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time, or they witness (or experience) violence, or some other anti-social behavior sours the whole thing. These are not issues with public transit. These are issues with municipalities that don't invest in their citizens. For one example, public transit connects people to jobs. Some people in nicer areas with good jobs fight against public transit because they don't want the working class to have easy access to their neighborhood. So, again, the issue isn't public transit, it's people who don't want to share their municipality's resources. New York today has free kindergarten, universal school lunches and the excelsior scholarship program. Thanks to investments like this, we see crime in NY today is lower than even Giuliani's tenure as mayor...
ionwake 1y ago
>Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time As a european I read this comment, its sort of implications, and reckon US must be hell in some areas. TBH London has seen a big drop in health, pan handlers have "lightly" started appearing on public transport, I think I only began noticing it since 2020. My point is even with the occasionaly pan handler in London, that statement wouldn't make sense, as it is not "obviosuly bad" in that regard.
- deltarholamda 1y ago
  Well, panhandling was just one thing mentioned, and to focus on that to the exclusion of the others seems disingenuous. But it does depend on the nature of the panhandling, doesn't it? Passive panhandling is one thing, and aggressive panhandling is something else, right? The point is that people will accept some level of anti-social behavior, however they define that, and above that level they do not. No amount of bluster or "why I just never" or incredulity doesn't change that. If you want walkable cities with good public transit you make it attractive and hospitable to a wide majority of people. Or don't, no skin off my nose, but acting shocked that there are people who think and react differently than you do is silly IMO.
  - ionwake 1y ago
    Im confused, you seem to be offended for some reason EDIT> I reread your comment what on earth are you talking about? Im not acting shocked, and nothing about my reply is anything to do with other people having differing opinions.
    - deltarholamda 1y ago
      Fair enough, though I'm not offended. I detected condescension where none was meant, and I apologize for that.
      - ionwake 1y ago
        No worries bro its all good man
ktosobcy 1y ago
This is not a problem with public transport but with utter lack of urban planning and convoluted social dynamics in the USA. Dense cities and lack of urban sprawl reults in awesome places to live and you don't need to even use public transport in those as everything is just close by. Also - IMHO the problem with the USA is more focus on competition (you have to "win") instead of cooperation hence more fracutred society that yields more povery and "not-nice" public spaces... > The worst argument anybody can make is "but that's just life in the big city!" If so, then I'm not going to live and raise my family in the big city. Airy-fairy principles of efficiency or an arguable notion of convenience will not take precedence over safety and quality. I live in a rather smallish city/town (~45k).
Der_Einzige 1y ago
No one wants public transit! I've spent a lot of time in Singapore, with literally the worlds lowest crime rates, highest trust in society, and best mass transit in the world. It costs 100K USD to get a SHITTY car, like a Toyota Prius. Everyone in Singapore is desperate to make lots of money, is desperate to buy a cool car, and is desperate to never step one foot onto the transit system again. Mass Transit is a cope for being poor, even in a society with no crime and the highest trust in society. Using it is admitting that "I failed to make enough money to get out of here" We have car culture because everyone wants it. Americans can literally buy a C8 corvette factory order at 20% off MSRP right now. The world salivates at such deals and is extremely jealous of our way of life. Liberals who try to kill car culture are exactly why Trump got elected and why he's so popular right now.
- Zigurd 1y ago
  Having ridden in a Ferrari in Singapore, I get the impression that paying car tax is a bit of a flex.
- justinrubek 1y ago
  The propaganda machine is still going as strong as ever.
- fowl338 1y ago
  As a dual EU-US citizen who has spent decades on each side, Western Europeans don't strike me as extremely jealous of the American way of life. Quite the opposite. But if believing that makes you feel better go ahead ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
ericmay 1y ago
> Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time People love driving until they're stuck in traffic, or their kid dies in a fiery car crash after being ran into by a drunk driver, or they get a flat tire, or can't afford their monthly car payment. To your point about society needing to be better, that applies generally and has nothing to do specifically with transit, walking around outside, or any other daily activities. You can live in a big city, affordably, with a yard and even a garage and have public transit like a light rail or a bus system, or just damn sidewalks that go to places. These supposed trade-offs are non-existent except in extreme cases like New York City, which isn't what is generally being discussed.
- mothballed 1y ago
  It applies to public transit specifically because people have freedom of speech to be assholes on public transit. If I have an uber or a private taxi or even a private collectivo which is a private system that works like public transit in much the 3rd world, if I get sick of someone panhandling for the Nth time I can kick them the fuck out. If you look at places with nice public transit like Germany or Japan, they have much weaker freedom of speech and assembly laws so they can enforce the kind of rules private enterprises do in the USA. Americans, and I agree with them on this point, aren't going to weaken civil rights just because it would happen to make public transit more viable. Private transport just has a lot of opportunities to deal with security or annoyance concerns you can't address with public transit. I don't think the opposition is so much to mass transit, just public transit, if the USA had something like the jeepnees they have in the philippines where I could pay $.25 to go across town and the bus driver can shove the assholes right off he bus, it'd be awesome.
  - piva00 1y ago
    I don't think it has anything to do with free speech laws, it's simply civics and the lack of it in American society due to a multitude of factors. American society doesn't understand collectivism in any level, your country has been built upon individualism without much care for collective living, you just reap what you've sown.
jakubmazanec 1y ago
> Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time, or they witness (or experience) violence, or some other anti-social behavior sours the whole thing. Maybe this is just another "American version" of something - in Czechia, public transportation is truly safe (incidents happen, of course, but it's like one per year that makes it to the news), even at night.
lokar 1y ago
I lived in Manhattan (Chelsea) and took the subway to work and most other outings (when I could not walk) in the few years before Covid. It was fine. You would get some people trying to sell stuff or in some kind of distress, but it was not all the time and it was easy to manage. Americans who don't live in dense cities (and use transit) seem to be obsessed with the idea that these are some intolerable dystopias that must be dismantled. It was the best place I have ever lived, except for the weather...
- FuriouslyAdrift 1y ago
  I found the density of Manhattan oppressive and stifling. Coming from Wrigleyville, in Chicago, it felt very impersonal and alienating. I ended up buying a house in an internal suburb (a former suburb from the 1930s that had been swallowed by the city) that is also a historic neighborhood (so it's character cannot be destroyed by developers).
  - goosejuice 1y ago
    Funny, I find Wrigleyville oppressive. I lived by that red line for a few years. It takes a lot of patience to live there.
    - FuriouslyAdrift 1y ago
      When I lived there it was middle class Polish and gay (since Boystown is right next to it). Pierogis, coffee, and cute little shops. That and great music.
      - goosejuice 1y ago
        I was right by Halsted and Addison. By oppressive I mean brutal in a sense. The drunks falling into the street. People shitting in my alley. Trying to get on and off the red line during a game. The huge crowds. Fights on the El platform. Cat calling. Harassment. People sleeping in my stairwell. It was rather eventful let's say. I just didn't really know what I was getting into being new to the city. It's pretty amazing what you grow accustom to.
insane_dreamer 1y ago
This may be the US (or NYC) public transport experience but it is generally not the European one.
vkou 1y ago
> Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time Everyone loves driving until they have to: * Pay through the nose for parking. * Pay through the nose for tolls. * Pay through the nose for gas, maintenance, insurance. * Replace a car that they can't afford to keep running. * Are stuck in endless traffic hell that them and all the other drivers on the road have created. * Are seriously injured or killed by a reckless/drunk/idiot/inattentive/unlucky driver. ---- The first bullet point in particular drives people into a frothing rage. Drivers, as a group, are incredibly and irrationally entitled to free storage of their cars on public/private space. The last bullet point is far more likely to happen to you in a car, than you are to be assaulted on a bus or train. Across my immediate family, I can count three serious crashes (Only one of which the family member in question was at fault for). None of us have ever been assaulted on public transit, and we've taken a lot of it. If my direct connection bus came back - or at least bus frequency were increased - (Thanks, budget cuts, for adding a 10-25 minute transfer to my downtown to downtown commute), my car would once again be collecting dust in the garage. People take transit when its relatively fast and gets them to where they need to go. That's the primary driver for ridership.
- matwood 1y ago
  Spot on. Where I live now we have a single car for convenience, but we can go weeks without driving. It's amazing, and I don't understand how I managed to commute by driving for so many years without going crazy.
insane_dreamer 1y ago
In my experience cars are much more dangerous than public transport. I've taken public transport my whole life, in numerous countries, and only bought a car for the first time 7 years ago when moving back to the US. Never had any incident on public transport or felt unsafe. Was it always as comfortable and convenient as my car? No, but that's a separate issue. I'm a weekend road cyclist and I've had a number of very close calls with cars -- invariably big pick up trucks, sometimes flying an American flag (you know the type) -- purposely rev up and buzz by me as close as possible on small country roads, sometimes honking as well or flipping the bird out the window. Any little stumble or twitch at that point and there were a couple of times I would have been in the hospital or dead. Yeah, there are sometimes strange people on public transport, as well as homeless, etc. But I've encountered more *holes driving cars than on the bus or subway.
ainiriand 1y ago
Funny enough it is the same with the cinema for me, too much impolite behaviour so I prefer to watch at home.
ponector 1y ago
>>but that's just life in the big city! In a big American city. School issues as well American due to funding structure. I'm not saying there aren't problems at school in other countries, but not like that: schools in cheap US districts are extremely underfunded.
ux266478 1y ago
What he suggests is completely besides public transit, it's about spaces in general where cars aren't allowed or catered to. It doesn't just apply to big cities, but mid-sized and small cities have an absolute dearth of pedestrian-focused plazas. Small towns are extremely hostile to basic foot traffic. There's no reason for this to be the case. In Europe the small town equivalent will have a center where most of the commerce and services are, where cars are completely forbidden. You simply drive into town, park somewhere and carry out your business on foot. It's very nice. Plazas do exist in the US, but they're rare. Very rare, especially outside of New England. That's what OP is talking about, public transit is a 'solution' to a different problem, and one that I don't like either. See, my biggest problem with urbanism is that it's overwhelmingly focused on building huge megacities, which are inherently unwalkable nonsense. Instead, walkability becomes rhetoric for any mode of transit that isn't a car. I hate that. I want walkable living spaces that are actually walkable, not urban environments where I walk to the train station because the city is too large for its own good. I don't want to replace the personal car with public transit. It misses the point entirely. I don't want to have to use anything more intensive than an e-scooter to get around the place I live at all. Walking to the train station and riding that for 10-20 minutes to get to the other side of the city sucks. The social problems endemic to public transit in the US are just icing on the cake. Tokyo is a hellish nightmare compared to an Italian commune.
LexiMax 1y ago
> This happened en masse many decades ago in America. There was a name for this trend - White flight. I grew up in southern suburbia and in walkable southern towns - they do exist, in pockets. I learned two things from my experiences. First is that anywhere there is foot traffic, you will get homelessness, panhandling, crime, and just generally people you don't recognize. It's not because big cities aren't being policed adequately or anything policymakers are doing, it's just something that naturally comes with the territory. The second lesson I took away is that we as a society often can't tell the difference between "This place makes me feel uncomfortable" and "This place isn't safe." Despite all of those issues I outlined above, I felt very safe and comfortable living day to day in urbanist spaces.
speleding 1y ago
You can have walkable neighborhoods and still allow some cars. They can only enter a neighborhood at low speed as a destination, to park there. To get from one neighborhood to another you have normal roads and highways. The Netherlands does this (although they have a lot of public transport as well. And bikes of course)
Gigachad 1y ago
How is this such a common occurrence? I take the train to work almost every day in Australia and I’ve probably been asked for money twice in the last 3 years, and never seen a violent situation.
Muromec 1y ago
>Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time, or they witness (or experience) violence, or some other anti-social behavior sours the whole thing. Haven't seen any of that in 30 years of using public transport in several countries. Are you ok in US? The closest to anarchy I have been in public transport was withnessin a hobo refusing to pay for the ride to trigger the police response and be booked.
- coryrc 1y ago
  No, not at all. Have you seen the news? We'll be at Weimar Republic levels of inflation soon and half the voters think the person that's causing it will fix it.
user94wjwuid 1y ago
You are 1,000,000,000% more likely to die hit by a car as a pedestrian than die from a panhandler asking for a buck
cyberax 1y ago
> I'm a big supporter of urbanism. Well, it leads to the behavior that you mentioned. It's unavoidable and it'll keep getting worse as the price of housing in dense cities continues to soar. Your only choice? Move to suburbs and wait for self-driving cars. I get downvoted every time I say this, but that's the simple truth.
smw 1y ago
Or, you know, we could handle homelessness. I lived in Amsterdam for the last two years and despite walking everywhere and intentionally exploring, I never saw a person sleeping on the street, and the only time I was asked for money was an obvious tourist. I don't think the NL government is remotely perfect, and they definitely are struggling to build enough housing, but their 'housing first' strategy towards homelessness seems to mostly work?
CHB0403085482 1y ago
>Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time, or they witness (or experience) violence, or some other anti-social behavior sours the whole thing. Tokyo got this solved. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KMYAEIXVzA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0KMYAEIXVzA
BrenBarn 1y ago
> Public transit requires a certain level of unspoken agreement. "We will all behave in this manner." If this unspoken agreement is broken often enough, then it must be enforced. All of society requires this, not just public transit.
mancerayder 1y ago
>I'm a big supporter of urbanism. I loathe the time I spend in my car, and I don't even have that far of a commute, but I have zero other options if I want to live where crime is low and the schools aren't dysfunctional. Until this is addressed, there is no argument about commuter density or efficiency of movement or anything else the proponents of public transit like to talk about that will make a lick of difference. The post-Giuliani years were great until we started implementing an approach maybe described as "property crime enforcement leads to injustice because it's due to inequality, and moreover should be treated as a societal issue" justice system adjustment. There, spikes of menacing and assaults on public transit occurred, to the point where a disconnect became quite obvious to commuters. The problem with this narrative is that wealthy people take black cars to drive them around, leave the city on the weekends, and ultimately don't have the day to day concerns around safety. Add to that an interesting fact that the most progressive neighborhoods are generally the safest (with an anti-police and criminal justice reform bent) while the poorest have a pro police attitude. Here's an interactive map that lets you compare votes across neighborhoods of the different Democratic candidates in the 2021 election where we had Adams making his pro-police rhetoric center to his campaign. Look where his support trends highest: https://www.urbanresearchmaps.org/nycrcv2021/?office=mayor&candidate=ead&map-type=choropleth-ad#%26map=10.99/40.6798/-73.9854 https://www.urbanresearchmaps.org/nycrcv2021/?office=mayor&c...

okdood64 1y ago

Thank you for this. This is precisely my issue with public transport in the US (granted my experience has only been in SF, Oakland, NYC and Chicago). It’s emotionally taxing when you need to keep your guard up all the time. I can’t even imagine how much worse it would be on someone if they had kids to tow around as well.

oldjim798 1y ago
How is driving not emotionally taxing the exact same way? Driving with my kids is fucking terrifying. I have 2 under 6, and I have to lock them into these giant car seats to keep them safe (to be clear I like modern car seats, their designs just remind me how vulnerable kids are). Every time I go through a intersection I worry what happens if someone runs the red and smashes into our side. I no longer speed when I drive because I want the kids to be safe and the insane rage other drivers send our way because I'm going 40 km/hr on a 40 km/hr road. I've had driver try to force us off the road, tail gate us hard, pass us across double yellow lines, scream at us. Driving is exhausting.
- deltarholamda 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - maleldil 1y ago
    I don't know where the AI summary is getting the numbers from, but there was an article recently in the front page with more statistics about this: https://ourworldindata.org/britain-safest-roads-history https://ourworldindata.org/britain-safest-roads-history.
  - oldjim798 1y ago
    When you compare driving to almost every other form of transportation it is wildly dangerous. https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-community/safety-topics/deaths-by-transportation-mode/ https://injuryfacts.nsc.org/home-and-community/safety-topics... "Passenger vehicles are by far the most dangerous motorized transportation option compared. Over the last 10 years, passenger vehicle death rate per 100,000,000 passenger miles was over 60 times higher than for buses, 20 times higher than for passenger trains, and 1,200 times higher than for scheduled airlines. Other comparisons are possible based on passenger trips, vehicle miles, or vehicle trips, but passenger miles is the most commonly used basis for comparing the safety of various modes of travel." >Your safety is at least somewhat in your control Have you ever driven on roads? What control do I have that someone reading their phone instead of looking where their giant SUV is going while speeding

oldjim798 1y ago

All this applies to cars as well. Drivers are wild and driving is absurdly dangerous. I hate driving because other drives act like they are the car in the world - particularly post covid. Here in Toronto turn signals feel like they have been uninstalled. We have a ton of street racers tearing up the roads. I see motorcyclists pop wheelies and rip down major streets weekly. All of your complaints about lack of pro social behavior applies to drivers too.

LexiMax 1y ago
I've had panhandlers walk up to me at stop lights in suburban sprawl cities. I find it very hard to believe that the GP hasn't experienced the same.
- tengbretson 1y ago
  Would you agree that being able to drive away from that situation is different from sharing space in a confined metal tube for 20+ minutes?
  - woodruffw 1y ago
    My experience is that panhandlers on the road like to post up at long red lights, at which point you’re effectively forced to share space with them for N minutes unless you intend to run a red light. In the subway, you just change cars. (I’m riding the subway right now, and two people just changed cars because of weak A/C.)
  - LexiMax 1y ago
    If you're sitting next to a homeless person for 20+ minutes you're not in danger, you're just uncomfortable sharing space with the less fortunate.
    - inglor_cz 1y ago
      "you're just uncomfortable sharing space with the less fortunate." This is the sort of vacuous moral posturing that loses elections and if it wins them, it makes cities unlivable. Why should I be fine sitting next to someone who shit his pants several times and likely has lice and scabies? And yes, it occassionally happens even in Czech public transport. If you not just tolerate this, but scold people for being disgusted, the public transport system will lose the middle class and with it, any benevolence of the tax payer. Civilizations always have some minimum for public behavior. Not stinking to high heaven in closed spaces is one of them. If you fight against such bare minimums and tell people that they are bad people for requiring them, you are promoting pure, unadulterated barbarism.

panick21_ 1y ago

> Public transit requires a certain level of unspoken agreement. "We will all behave in this manner." That literally all of society. The American idea that you live in suburban home that is a quasi gated community, drive into a parking garage, then go up to an office, only interact with workmates and then driving back out with no social interaction other then work is just not how most society worked for all of history. And its not how the US worked until the 1960. The reality is, violence and death on the roads, is far more common then on public transport. There are tons road rage incidents, an absurdly high number. Those lead to all kinds of problems and quite often shootings. You are in more danger then on public transport generally. And yet I almost never hear about that when Americans talk about transport policy. But yes, there does need to be rules enforcement. But on the other hand its also true that the US often has very user-hostile design principles in pretty much every aspect of their city design and policing policy. And that often invites or re-enforces bad behavior.

Earw0rm 1y ago
And social policy. You have too many people wandering around in a psychological state one negative interaction away from an incident that could easily escalate to murder. Such people exist in every country, yes, but fewer in most places.

Fricken 1y ago

My daily bicycle commute takes me right through the heart of my city's homeless district, and like with many cities things have gotten a lot worse since COVID. Cars are far and away the biggest threat to my safety, and the source of all the harrassment I receive while out in public. I mean, every now and then some guttersnipe blurts out incoherencies at me, but that's not something to be afraid of. I regard driving, in cities, to be an inherently anti-social activity. If you want a healthy community with safe and lively streets you got to be out in it, not sealed off in a protective cage.

deltarholamda 1y ago
Do you have a wife? Kids? Would you let them bicycle through the homeless district? I don't get hassled either, but it's not about me. My job as a husband and father is to protect my family.
- Fricken 1y ago
  If I see your wife and kids in trouble I'll intervene, don't worry. Of course, motor vehicle crashes are the second biggest killer of kids after guns. I don't know where homeless people sit on the threat scale but it's a negligibly small amount.
  - deltarholamda 1y ago
    That's a non-answer, so I assume that's a "no" on the wife, kids, and/or letting them pedal through tent city. In any event, homeless people are low on the threat scale because people generally avoid riding a Schwinn through homeless encampments, which should be perfectly obvious but I guess not.
    - Fricken 1y ago
      I don't have kids. The homeless district is easy to avoid, and there's a k-12 school right on the edge of it with many kids walking, cycling and taking the bus to school. I've never heard of a serious incident involving homeless people. Here's a fun fact for you: statistically cyclists live longer than non-cyclists, and that's in spite of all the hazards they have to deal with while out riding.

dbingham 1y ago

This all comes down to "We can't have nice things in America because of our toxic mix of individualism and capitalism." Because we insist on trying to privatize everything, refuse to provide a safe floor for people, and make poverty and mental health challenges moral issues (meaning we degrade people who experience them and leave them to fend for themselves) we create an environment where true community is impossible. Unless, of course, we apply authoritarian and abusive policing controls against those we've left behind, rounding them up and sending them somewhere else. Which of course achieves a temporary "peace" at the cost of a deep insecurity and fear, because we all know the moment we slip or step out of line, we're gone. It really is toxic and has led directly to society breaking down to the point where we're now falling into full scale fascism.

drstewart 1y ago
[flagged]
rurban 1y ago
You can have nice things also. Eg the inner city of Park City, Utah is also car free, and busses are running for free in the winter season.

dropofwill 1y ago

Pontevedra is at least 100 times smaller then NYC, it's more comparable to the suburbs that you're moving your family to.

verzali 1y ago
Yep, population of 80,000 vs 8,000,000.

rcpt 1y ago

> Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time OP is right. The demand is huge and supply is tiny. Even with those scary panhandlers people are jamming onto public transport (when it actually exists) and going far far out of their way to experience walkable areas. > zero other options if I want to live where crime is low and the schools aren't dysfunctional Crime in NYC is exceedingly low and the schools are great. Why don't you simply move to Chelsea or the Upper West Side?

deltarholamda 1y ago
>Why don't you simply move to Chelsea or the Upper West Side? Because I'm not in the top 0.1%. "Why don't you just move into a $2-5 million dollar home?" is an astonishing take.
- rafram 1y ago
  The UWS above 96th is quite affordable. Manhattan Valley is pretty, safe, and close to the park.
  - deltarholamda 1y ago
    According to Zillow they start at about a million for 2/1 apartments and go up from there. We have completely different definitions for affordable, unless $250K+/yr jobs are just falling out of the sky.
    - sombrero_john 1y ago
      Renting is perfectly fine. NYC has the strongest tenant protection laws in the country.
      - kortilla 1y ago
        Renting has to support the mortgage on that. The only difference between being able to afford a house and affording rent is having the capital for a down payment

hiddencost 1y ago

[dead]

deltarholamda 1y ago
"Nobody I know voted for Nixon." Many cities have been losing population for a while, regardless of your intimate knowledge of what other people do or don't feel. Incredulity isn't really much of a solution if you want to address issues that people might have.
- Zigurd 1y ago
  Somebody ought to tell the people trying to solve a housing shortage that depopulation is the real problem.
  - deltarholamda 1y ago
    There is "housing shortage" and "affordable housing shortage", and these are two things that sound similar but are actually very different.
- woodruffw 1y ago
  I think it’s worth noting “cities that are losing population” and “cities that have underdeveloped public transportation” correlate closely.

oldsecondhand 1y ago

The problems you mentioned are policing and welfare problems, both things that America sucks at.

okr 1y ago
Or it becomes too expensive like in germany. Then it will suck too.
- eCa 1y ago
  €58 a month for all local/regional public transport is very cheap. Where I am, in another part of western Europe, a single-region ticket is normally ~30-50% more expensive than the all-of-Germany ticket.
  - okr 1y ago
    It is subsidized. Through taxes you pay the full prize anyways. Just that someone else than you who decides, what do with your money, like subsidized public transport.
    - GrzegorzWidla 1y ago
      Nothing is more subsidised than cars and their infrastructure.

c22 1y ago

Are you kidding? I see antisocial, dangerous, and violent behaviors from other people driving cars every single day...

CPLX 1y ago

I took my kid to school in Downtown Brooklyn on the subway today. It was great. New York is great and the subway is amazing. I remain mystified by what I see people say on cable news or podcasts. Or maybe everyone secretly just really loves strip malls, who knows.

dfee 1y ago
From a website I read last night: > Mountain Life > I love the fact you can drive down the road and wave at friends you know.....and hell you probably will be drinking a beer with them later that day. I love the fact everyone is pretty laid back and neighbors know each other..Anyone for BBQ?. I enjoy the fact I can chill out relax NOT hearing the city noise. I love the fact at night you can look up and see the night sky and here coyote's screeching in the background. I respect the fact I grew up in an environment that was NOT surrounded by pavement and was NOT surrounded by buildings. There was endless landscapes and forests of exploration. I could find any tree and build my fort. I could spend hours hiking with my dog and find no end. I could take a nap in a field of grass and not worry someone would cross my path. The Santa Cruz Mountains have so much to offer and I feel like there is so much to learn about them. https://santacruzmtns.com/About.html https://santacruzmtns.com/About.html
- bee_rider 1y ago
  A bit weird they decided to include some barbs about how their environment was NOT like some city, even when trying to be positive.
  - Der_Einzige 1y ago
    Living rent free in their minds. New Yorkers don't think about them at all, just like the scene from Mad Men.
    - dfee 1y ago
      I think you're right. It's strange getting into a taxi and seeing NY1 – there really is minimal consideration of the rest of the country.

bix6 1y ago

I hate public transit because it takes 2x+ the time to get anywhere since it’s such an afterthought. The routes are horrible and the vehicles too infrequent. When I lived in Berlin I could get anywhere in the city within 15-30 mins, it was insane. I ride my bike or e-bike everywhere I can. Cars are the worst.

everdrive 1y ago

>The worst argument anybody can make is "but that's just life in the big city!" A cousin was visiting us in our nice suburb. We had a slow, not-busy road we walked on when we lived there, and we'd wave to anyone; neighbors, vehicles, etc. Our cousin was sort of uncomfortable, and asked "do you know all these people?" I explained that we knew some of them but were just being polite and friendly. She explained that that were she lived (Boston) you just couldn't safely wave at just anybody you passed. I don't think this occurred to her at the time, but that means she lives in a pretty awful place. Why exactly would it be _dangerous_ to wave at someone in a friendly way? There's only one answer to that question; because you live around violent or unstable people. Before anyone says I'm just privileged, I've lived in rough areas before, and I can't fathom why anyone would put up with that sort of daily violence, noise and general degradation of quality of life if they otherwise didn't have to. We ultimately ended up moving out of the city just like you said because the crime was getting worse year by year. Do you want some drunk kid blasting his bass right outside your house at 11pm on a weeknight? (for hours, no less) And if you go and try to get him to turn it down there's a significant chance you'll be met with violence? Or people harassing your wife if she's ever "foolish" enough to walk down the street without you? Or to need to explain to your wife "hey, we can't walk through that group of kids, I can't really defend you against more than two attackers." All of these were regular issues for us. Home invasions on our block started ramping up, we knew people who were attacked, shot, killed, just while walking home. To your point, this wasn't academic. It can be quite the 3rd rail to try to explain _why_ the violence in the city is bad, what is the cause and what is the solution. But when we're talking about my family's safety, I just don't care. I'm not going to live like that, and would have done almost anything to get my family out of that sort of situation. I really can't even fathom people who would write these things off. "Sure, my wife might be murdered and abused in a home invasion, but there are really cool walk-able restaurants!" It's pathological.

Zigurd 1y ago
The semi rural and rural US south is, in many places, much more dangerous based on crime statistics. Stranger danger is also much less of a factor than is perceived.
- 1y ago

dfxm12 1y ago

Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time, or they witness (or experience) violence, or some other anti-social behavior sours the whole thing. These are not issues with public transit. These are issues with municipalities that don't invest in their citizens. For one example, public transit connects people to jobs. Some people in nicer areas with good jobs fight against public transit because they don't want the working class to have easy access to their neighborhood. So, again, the issue isn't public transit, it's people who don't want to share their municipality's resources. New York today has free kindergarten, universal school lunches and the excelsior scholarship program. Thanks to investments like this, we see crime in NY today is lower than even Giuliani's tenure as mayor...

ionwake 1y ago

>Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time As a european I read this comment, its sort of implications, and reckon US must be hell in some areas. TBH London has seen a big drop in health, pan handlers have "lightly" started appearing on public transport, I think I only began noticing it since 2020. My point is even with the occasionaly pan handler in London, that statement wouldn't make sense, as it is not "obviosuly bad" in that regard.

deltarholamda 1y ago
Well, panhandling was just one thing mentioned, and to focus on that to the exclusion of the others seems disingenuous. But it does depend on the nature of the panhandling, doesn't it? Passive panhandling is one thing, and aggressive panhandling is something else, right? The point is that people will accept some level of anti-social behavior, however they define that, and above that level they do not. No amount of bluster or "why I just never" or incredulity doesn't change that. If you want walkable cities with good public transit you make it attractive and hospitable to a wide majority of people. Or don't, no skin off my nose, but acting shocked that there are people who think and react differently than you do is silly IMO.
- ionwake 1y ago
  Im confused, you seem to be offended for some reason EDIT> I reread your comment what on earth are you talking about? Im not acting shocked, and nothing about my reply is anything to do with other people having differing opinions.
  - deltarholamda 1y ago
    Fair enough, though I'm not offended. I detected condescension where none was meant, and I apologize for that.
    - ionwake 1y ago
      No worries bro its all good man

ktosobcy 1y ago

This is not a problem with public transport but with utter lack of urban planning and convoluted social dynamics in the USA. Dense cities and lack of urban sprawl reults in awesome places to live and you don't need to even use public transport in those as everything is just close by. Also - IMHO the problem with the USA is more focus on competition (you have to "win") instead of cooperation hence more fracutred society that yields more povery and "not-nice" public spaces... > The worst argument anybody can make is "but that's just life in the big city!" If so, then I'm not going to live and raise my family in the big city. Airy-fairy principles of efficiency or an arguable notion of convenience will not take precedence over safety and quality. I live in a rather smallish city/town (~45k).

Der_Einzige 1y ago

No one wants public transit! I've spent a lot of time in Singapore, with literally the worlds lowest crime rates, highest trust in society, and best mass transit in the world. It costs 100K USD to get a SHITTY car, like a Toyota Prius. Everyone in Singapore is desperate to make lots of money, is desperate to buy a cool car, and is desperate to never step one foot onto the transit system again. Mass Transit is a cope for being poor, even in a society with no crime and the highest trust in society. Using it is admitting that "I failed to make enough money to get out of here" We have car culture because everyone wants it. Americans can literally buy a C8 corvette factory order at 20% off MSRP right now. The world salivates at such deals and is extremely jealous of our way of life. Liberals who try to kill car culture are exactly why Trump got elected and why he's so popular right now.

Zigurd 1y ago
Having ridden in a Ferrari in Singapore, I get the impression that paying car tax is a bit of a flex.
justinrubek 1y ago
The propaganda machine is still going as strong as ever.
fowl338 1y ago
As a dual EU-US citizen who has spent decades on each side, Western Europeans don't strike me as extremely jealous of the American way of life. Quite the opposite. But if believing that makes you feel better go ahead ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

ericmay 1y ago

> Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time People love driving until they're stuck in traffic, or their kid dies in a fiery car crash after being ran into by a drunk driver, or they get a flat tire, or can't afford their monthly car payment. To your point about society needing to be better, that applies generally and has nothing to do specifically with transit, walking around outside, or any other daily activities. You can live in a big city, affordably, with a yard and even a garage and have public transit like a light rail or a bus system, or just damn sidewalks that go to places. These supposed trade-offs are non-existent except in extreme cases like New York City, which isn't what is generally being discussed.

mothballed 1y ago
It applies to public transit specifically because people have freedom of speech to be assholes on public transit. If I have an uber or a private taxi or even a private collectivo which is a private system that works like public transit in much the 3rd world, if I get sick of someone panhandling for the Nth time I can kick them the fuck out. If you look at places with nice public transit like Germany or Japan, they have much weaker freedom of speech and assembly laws so they can enforce the kind of rules private enterprises do in the USA. Americans, and I agree with them on this point, aren't going to weaken civil rights just because it would happen to make public transit more viable. Private transport just has a lot of opportunities to deal with security or annoyance concerns you can't address with public transit. I don't think the opposition is so much to mass transit, just public transit, if the USA had something like the jeepnees they have in the philippines where I could pay $.25 to go across town and the bus driver can shove the assholes right off he bus, it'd be awesome.
- piva00 1y ago
  I don't think it has anything to do with free speech laws, it's simply civics and the lack of it in American society due to a multitude of factors. American society doesn't understand collectivism in any level, your country has been built upon individualism without much care for collective living, you just reap what you've sown.

jakubmazanec 1y ago

> Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time, or they witness (or experience) violence, or some other anti-social behavior sours the whole thing. Maybe this is just another "American version" of something - in Czechia, public transportation is truly safe (incidents happen, of course, but it's like one per year that makes it to the news), even at night.

lokar 1y ago

I lived in Manhattan (Chelsea) and took the subway to work and most other outings (when I could not walk) in the few years before Covid. It was fine. You would get some people trying to sell stuff or in some kind of distress, but it was not all the time and it was easy to manage. Americans who don't live in dense cities (and use transit) seem to be obsessed with the idea that these are some intolerable dystopias that must be dismantled. It was the best place I have ever lived, except for the weather...

FuriouslyAdrift 1y ago
I found the density of Manhattan oppressive and stifling. Coming from Wrigleyville, in Chicago, it felt very impersonal and alienating. I ended up buying a house in an internal suburb (a former suburb from the 1930s that had been swallowed by the city) that is also a historic neighborhood (so it's character cannot be destroyed by developers).
- goosejuice 1y ago
  Funny, I find Wrigleyville oppressive. I lived by that red line for a few years. It takes a lot of patience to live there.
  - FuriouslyAdrift 1y ago
    When I lived there it was middle class Polish and gay (since Boystown is right next to it). Pierogis, coffee, and cute little shops. That and great music.
    - goosejuice 1y ago
      I was right by Halsted and Addison. By oppressive I mean brutal in a sense. The drunks falling into the street. People shitting in my alley. Trying to get on and off the red line during a game. The huge crowds. Fights on the El platform. Cat calling. Harassment. People sleeping in my stairwell. It was rather eventful let's say. I just didn't really know what I was getting into being new to the city. It's pretty amazing what you grow accustom to.

insane_dreamer 1y ago

This may be the US (or NYC) public transport experience but it is generally not the European one.

vkou 1y ago

> Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time Everyone loves driving until they have to: * Pay through the nose for parking. * Pay through the nose for tolls. * Pay through the nose for gas, maintenance, insurance. * Replace a car that they can't afford to keep running. * Are stuck in endless traffic hell that them and all the other drivers on the road have created. * Are seriously injured or killed by a reckless/drunk/idiot/inattentive/unlucky driver. ---- The first bullet point in particular drives people into a frothing rage. Drivers, as a group, are incredibly and irrationally entitled to free storage of their cars on public/private space. The last bullet point is far more likely to happen to you in a car, than you are to be assaulted on a bus or train. Across my immediate family, I can count three serious crashes (Only one of which the family member in question was at fault for). None of us have ever been assaulted on public transit, and we've taken a lot of it. If my direct connection bus came back - or at least bus frequency were increased - (Thanks, budget cuts, for adding a 10-25 minute transfer to my downtown to downtown commute), my car would once again be collecting dust in the garage. People take transit when its relatively fast and gets them to where they need to go. That's the primary driver for ridership.

matwood 1y ago
Spot on. Where I live now we have a single car for convenience, but we can go weeks without driving. It's amazing, and I don't understand how I managed to commute by driving for so many years without going crazy.

insane_dreamer 1y ago

In my experience cars are much more dangerous than public transport. I've taken public transport my whole life, in numerous countries, and only bought a car for the first time 7 years ago when moving back to the US. Never had any incident on public transport or felt unsafe. Was it always as comfortable and convenient as my car? No, but that's a separate issue. I'm a weekend road cyclist and I've had a number of very close calls with cars -- invariably big pick up trucks, sometimes flying an American flag (you know the type) -- purposely rev up and buzz by me as close as possible on small country roads, sometimes honking as well or flipping the bird out the window. Any little stumble or twitch at that point and there were a couple of times I would have been in the hospital or dead. Yeah, there are sometimes strange people on public transport, as well as homeless, etc. But I've encountered more *holes driving cars than on the bus or subway.

ainiriand 1y ago

Funny enough it is the same with the cinema for me, too much impolite behaviour so I prefer to watch at home.

ponector 1y ago

>>but that's just life in the big city! In a big American city. School issues as well American due to funding structure. I'm not saying there aren't problems at school in other countries, but not like that: schools in cheap US districts are extremely underfunded.

ux266478 1y ago

What he suggests is completely besides public transit, it's about spaces in general where cars aren't allowed or catered to. It doesn't just apply to big cities, but mid-sized and small cities have an absolute dearth of pedestrian-focused plazas. Small towns are extremely hostile to basic foot traffic. There's no reason for this to be the case. In Europe the small town equivalent will have a center where most of the commerce and services are, where cars are completely forbidden. You simply drive into town, park somewhere and carry out your business on foot. It's very nice. Plazas do exist in the US, but they're rare. Very rare, especially outside of New England. That's what OP is talking about, public transit is a 'solution' to a different problem, and one that I don't like either. See, my biggest problem with urbanism is that it's overwhelmingly focused on building huge megacities, which are inherently unwalkable nonsense. Instead, walkability becomes rhetoric for any mode of transit that isn't a car. I hate that. I want walkable living spaces that are actually walkable, not urban environments where I walk to the train station because the city is too large for its own good. I don't want to replace the personal car with public transit. It misses the point entirely. I don't want to have to use anything more intensive than an e-scooter to get around the place I live at all. Walking to the train station and riding that for 10-20 minutes to get to the other side of the city sucks. The social problems endemic to public transit in the US are just icing on the cake. Tokyo is a hellish nightmare compared to an Italian commune.

LexiMax 1y ago

> This happened en masse many decades ago in America. There was a name for this trend - White flight. I grew up in southern suburbia and in walkable southern towns - they do exist, in pockets. I learned two things from my experiences. First is that anywhere there is foot traffic, you will get homelessness, panhandling, crime, and just generally people you don't recognize. It's not because big cities aren't being policed adequately or anything policymakers are doing, it's just something that naturally comes with the territory. The second lesson I took away is that we as a society often can't tell the difference between "This place makes me feel uncomfortable" and "This place isn't safe." Despite all of those issues I outlined above, I felt very safe and comfortable living day to day in urbanist spaces.

speleding 1y ago

You can have walkable neighborhoods and still allow some cars. They can only enter a neighborhood at low speed as a destination, to park there. To get from one neighborhood to another you have normal roads and highways. The Netherlands does this (although they have a lot of public transport as well. And bikes of course)

Gigachad 1y ago

How is this such a common occurrence? I take the train to work almost every day in Australia and I’ve probably been asked for money twice in the last 3 years, and never seen a violent situation.

Muromec 1y ago

>Everybody loves public transit until they get panhandled for the jillionth time, or they witness (or experience) violence, or some other anti-social behavior sours the whole thing. Haven't seen any of that in 30 years of using public transport in several countries. Are you ok in US? The closest to anarchy I have been in public transport was withnessin a hobo refusing to pay for the ride to trigger the police response and be booked.

coryrc 1y ago
No, not at all. Have you seen the news? We'll be at Weimar Republic levels of inflation soon and half the voters think the person that's causing it will fix it.

user94wjwuid 1y ago

You are 1,000,000,000% more likely to die hit by a car as a pedestrian than die from a panhandler asking for a buck

cyberax 1y ago

> I'm a big supporter of urbanism. Well, it leads to the behavior that you mentioned. It's unavoidable and it'll keep getting worse as the price of housing in dense cities continues to soar. Your only choice? Move to suburbs and wait for self-driving cars. I get downvoted every time I say this, but that's the simple truth.

smw 1y ago

Or, you know, we could handle homelessness. I lived in Amsterdam for the last two years and despite walking everywhere and intentionally exploring, I never saw a person sleeping on the street, and the only time I was asked for money was an obvious tourist. I don't think the NL government is remotely perfect, and they definitely are struggling to build enough housing, but their 'housing first' strategy towards homelessness seems to mostly work?

CHB0403085482 1y ago

BrenBarn 1y ago

> Public transit requires a certain level of unspoken agreement. "We will all behave in this manner." If this unspoken agreement is broken often enough, then it must be enforced. All of society requires this, not just public transit.

mancerayder 1y ago

>I'm a big supporter of urbanism. I loathe the time I spend in my car, and I don't even have that far of a commute, but I have zero other options if I want to live where crime is low and the schools aren't dysfunctional. Until this is addressed, there is no argument about commuter density or efficiency of movement or anything else the proponents of public transit like to talk about that will make a lick of difference. The post-Giuliani years were great until we started implementing an approach maybe described as "property crime enforcement leads to injustice because it's due to inequality, and moreover should be treated as a societal issue" justice system adjustment. There, spikes of menacing and assaults on public transit occurred, to the point where a disconnect became quite obvious to commuters. The problem with this narrative is that wealthy people take black cars to drive them around, leave the city on the weekends, and ultimately don't have the day to day concerns around safety. Add to that an interesting fact that the most progressive neighborhoods are generally the safest (with an anti-police and criminal justice reform bent) while the poorest have a pro police attitude. Here's an interactive map that lets you compare votes across neighborhoods of the different Democratic candidates in the 2021 election where we had Adams making his pro-police rhetoric center to his campaign. Look where his support trends highest: https://www.urbanresearchmaps.org/nycrcv2021/?office=mayor&candidate=ead&map-type=choropleth-ad#%26map=10.99/40.6798/-73.9854 https://www.urbanresearchmaps.org/nycrcv2021/?office=mayor&c...