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Anonymous Donor Pays for College of Every Student in Kalamazoo

sukuriant 14y ago
And now. Whatever you do. No. Whatever. You. Do. Do. NOT. Turn back on this promise. Make it happen. No ifs, ands, or buts. Period. And colleges. If somehow, something terrible happens, and the money stops coming in. Let those kids finish for free anyway. Anything less is the newest worst thing that could happen to these kids and then adults. [edit: I am curious about the downvotes. From what I gathered, the people that these donors have chosen to help are the downtrodden of this area. Much of their life may have been spent in a world of people not fulfilling their world. Fathers leaving, etc. The last thing these kids need is for yet another promise to be left unfulfilled, be it by red-tape or just some series of unfortunate events. Despite that, these children need to have the results of the promise fulfilled.]
- dhughes 14y ago
  The article stated > blind to family income levels, to pupils’ grades and even to disciplinary and criminal records...
  - sukuriant 14y ago
    That doesn't stop bureaucracy from changing that decision or for the people that are donating to be sent to jail/etc before they can finish their promises.
    - anigbrowl 14y ago
      Put the bong down, and reread this tomorrow.It may not have occurred to you, but the norm in phalinthropy is to establish legal structures at the outset which prevent those sorts of outcomes. You appear to think the money has either been handed over as a lump sum or is being delivered on an ad-hoc basis. Neither is likely.
      - sukuriant 14y ago
        I don't smoke pot, thanks. That said, I didn't know that detail how these things usually work, though that does make sense and pleases me to hear.
      - sukuriant 14y ago
        Ah, I see what you were saying. The "criminal records" there is in reference to the children, not those providing the money. I was concerned about the people providing the money.
- msellout 14y ago
  The down-votes may be in response to the style of your prose and that your comment is directed to people that (most likely) do not read this forum. If you want to engage with the other forum readers, perhaps you should have said something along the lines of: "I worry that this funding promise will be broken if the donors lose some of their wealth. If that occurs, the children's lives may be worse than if the promise were never made in the first place." I happen to disagree with that sentiment. I understand that giving and then taking away can be worse than no action, but I doubt that the donors' wealth is so volatile that the funds would run out before a large cohort graduates college.
  - sukuriant 14y ago
    Forgive me; but, you say you disagree with the sentiment, but you disagree with it on the bounds that the thing you're disagreeing with is unlikely to happen. That doesn't change the damage that could/would happen if the unfortunate thing DID happen; and that shouldn't cause you to disagree with the sentiment, from my understanding. Perhaps I'm understanding you incorrectly? I read what you said as: * Taking A away after giving A is worse than never giving A in the first place. * People giving A are probably not in a position to lose A. * Therefore, I disagree that losing A would be a bad thing.
- geoffschmidt 14y ago
  Re downvotes -- using periods like that for emphasis (in the first line of your post) is like typing your message in all caps for emphasis. It makes your argument harder to read, but it doesn't make it more persuasive. And it makes people not really want to talk with you -- you're signaling that you're not going to engage them intellectually, you're just going to get offended and shout at them if they disagree with you.
  - sukuriant 14y ago
    That's reasonable
unfoldedorigami 14y ago
What's fascinating to me is that because it prevented the surrounding communities from growing at the expense of Kalamazoo, those districts invested even more in their schools and education infrastructure to compete with the city with The Promise. I would have predicted the exact opposite. Super interesting.
thewordis 14y ago
I went to college there and live one city over (25 minute drive). There are a lot of wealthy people living in the area, multimillionaires in the suburbs, but also a lot of poverty. A _lot_ of poverty. I'm glad to see someone trying something new, even on such a small scale. I was almost tempted to look for housing within the Kzoo city limits because of the Promise, but I don't plan on having children any time soon. We need more such experiments and resultant data.
mahmud 14y ago
What would be the unintended negative consequences of this? It reminds me of the story of a West African king who went on a pilgrimage to Mecca. On his way to Arabia, the king gifted so much gold to all intervening communities that the price of gold crashed, taking with it the economies of North Africa and Arabia.
- arjunnarayan 14y ago
  Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_I_of_Mali#Islam_and_pilgrimage_to_Mecca http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_I_of_Mali#Islam_and_pilgri...
- gmrple 14y ago
  Only downside I could possibly see is someone taking their education more lightly because they don't have to pay for it.
  - mgkimsal 14y ago
    Many people aren't "paying for it" today already - can we judge if they're taking it more or less lightly than they otherwise would have? Given that we have 20 year olds taking on tens of thousands of dollars in debt, when I don't really think most of them have any perspective at all to judge the seriousness of that, I'm not sure we can say that everyone going to college today is 'paying for it'. We might say that many of them are paying for it (in many senses of the phrase) for years/decades to come.
    - gmrple 14y ago
      I didn't pay for my education. I am very thankful for that. I wasn't judging, I promise, only observing :).
  - deleted 14y ago
    [deleted]
- ktizo 14y ago
  More people learning stuff doesn't devalue the learning that other people do, it adds to it. The economics of ideas are not the same as the economics of physical commodities.
alttag 14y ago
Wow. That's neat. I once had a conversation with a state legislator where he argued it wasn't the responsibility of government to provide grant and loan opportunities for higher education, and that by doing so, the federal government was disincentivizing saving and investing. Instead, he argued universities should be more market driven (which I will concede might introduce more price competition in the face of rapidly rising tuition rates). He was a firm believer that a university education should be something one works and sacrifices for. In my elected position with public education at the time, I disagreed (and still disagree) with some of his claims, believing a subsidized higher education experience for a expanded pool of people is a long-term net gain compared to crime/prison costs and the cost of government-funded social safety net programs. (Although, again, college-student families admittedly qualify for most government assistance programs already, but this is hopefully a short-term rather than lifetime dependence.) I'd love to see the long-term effects on the quality of life, debt, and employment prospects of these students.
- quesera 14y ago
  I respect your position, and agree with parts of it. But I am bothered by the vast amounts of grant and loan money that get absorbed directly by colleges, raising the cost for everyone and creating a positive feedback loop that requires endlessly more taxes and debt to sustain. I feel we've been sold a bill of goods ("opportunity through higher ed -- don't let your kids fall behind in the new global economy, etc etc") that is way past the point of rationality.
  - chii 14y ago
    I think its a balancing act - but i guess grants is worse than loans. Granting "free" money will indeed cause problems, but a loan that is required to be repaid seems like the right way to go in the long term, provided that after the higher education is completed the individual in question is able to actually provide value.
    - luu 14y ago
      This has it exactly backwards. Consider this simple (and very simplified) example. The NPV of college is $100k. The marginal student can scrape together $10k to go to college. The marginal cost of a student is less than $10k for the college. How much will the college charge? $10k. What's the benefit to the student? $90k. What if an $89.9k subsidized grant is available? Now the college can charge $99.9k. What's the benefit to the student? Still $90k. Now lets say an $89.9k loan is made available. The college can still charge $99.9k. What's the benefit to the student? $.1k. This is actually happening (though it isn't quite so extreme). The existence of loans is allowing colleges to capture more of the value of college from student. The real world is actually worse than this simplified example in a lot of ways. Many degrees aren't worth it (from a purely monetary perspective), and the result is probabilistic, but student loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy, and payment is up front (w.r.t. a person's career), so the student takes on the risk, but the college gets the reward regardless.
dkroy 14y ago
I am very jealous of these students, I entered my post college life in the hole like many other students. Luckily, the tech world is in a completely different state than the rest of the job world when it comes to looking for a place to practice your profession.
wtvanhest 14y ago
Scott's Tots?
- fastball 14y ago
  Let's hope it doesn't pan out that way...
kqr2 14y ago
Actually, it's donors (plural). They are collectively called the Kalamazoo Promise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalamazoo_Promise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalamazoo_Promise
- jjguy 14y ago
  The words "donors" in that wikipedia page have remained unchanged since the original page shell in May 2006. Considering also the NYT article explicitly discusses donor vs. donors, I view the wikipedia characterization more as editorial convenience than evidence. That said, my common sense tends to agree with you. Is there evidence elsewhere?
  - gareim 14y ago
    The article uses "donors" several times. I think while it's amazing if one person is willing to sponsor, it's even more amazing if there are many out there who believe in a brighter future for them. That actually makes me happier, knowing that it's donors and not a donor. "When asked how the conversations that led to the Promise unfolded, Brown demurs. “That, and the identity of the donors, are things I just will never talk about,” she says. "
carioca3 14y ago
Anonymous? If memory serves me right it is the Stryker family that provides the scholarships.
- r0ll3rb0t 14y ago
  Could be many... Upjohn, Stryker, Gilmore; there are many big names in Kalamazoo.
- antidaily 14y ago
  That'd be my guess.
- sliverstorm 14y ago
  Even if their identities aren't as well-hidden as covert espionage informants, that doesn't mean we should broadcast it if they have clearly elected to be quiet about it themselves.
kevinconroy 14y ago
From Wikipedia: "To receive a full scholarship, students must have attended Kalamazoo public schools since kindergarten. The program, unveiled at a November 10, 2005, Kalamazoo Board of Education meeting, is also viewed as an economic development tool for Kalamazoo. Since the Kalamazoo Promise was announced, enrollment in the school district has grown by 16%, test scores have improved, and a greater proportion of high-school graduates are attending college. In 2010 alone, the Kalamazoo Public School district saw enrollment rise 3% to 12,409." Have to be there K-12 to get full tuition. There's a chart that shows the sliding scale based on your length of attendance. Most interesting part is that if you move in for the tail end of high school you get 0% covered to prevent people from temporarily joining the community just for the tuition. Attendance -> Proportion of full tuition K–12 100% 1–12 95% 2–12 95% 3–12 95% 4–12 90% 5–12 85% 6–12 80% 7–12 75% 8–12 70% 9–12 65% 10–12 None 11–12 None 12 None http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalamazoo_Promise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalamazoo_Promise EDIT: Added table.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
femto 14y ago
On the assumption this is a good thing, let's say every town/state rolls such a scheme out. Now every student in the nation is having their tuition paid. It's also costing about the same amount as if the government levied taxes and paid the costs. A negative, compared to government funding, is that the economy has lost mobility of labour. Getting a full scholarship requires the child to be enrolled from K-12. Loss of mobility might be a good thing, in that it prompts people to improve their local economy, rather than run away. Alternatively, it could lock people into a form of serfdom, unable to move to better their situation. I'd advocate that a voucher system, whereby the government gives each student a voucher for the degree of their choice, would be preferable to the widespread adoption of "the promise".
- kevinconroy 14y ago
  Lack of mobility is a key part of the experiment here. It's an economic growth strategy - attract families that value education, get them to set up roots, and the local economy will benefit. If this were to roll out on a national level then it would be much similar to public school, but rather than K-12, it'd be K-BA. Maybe there'd be vouchers, maybe not. The point is that this is an experimental model for economic growth and social benefit for the town, not the model for the entire nation.
  - 001sky 14y ago
    This is totally interesting point. The experiment has to be seen as the 18 year time-frame. How many Parents can rationally expect 18 years in Job? That type of career is getting further away from the norm, it seems
    - ChuckMcM 14y ago
      There are a number of small town jobs where this can be true, even what some might consider 'temp' work like waitstaff or gardener. There are of course the 'professional' careers, like lawyer, doctor, or accountant, and of course civil jobs like police officer, firefighter, clerk. The interesting bit comes when you're thinking about investing, say to build a gas station or a wallmart, knowing that the population will be relatively stable is an incentive. They don't constrain where the kids go, they can go to any school that they are accepted to AFAICT from the article. So some schools might recruit them knowing they won't need financial aid. It is a fascinating experiment in so many ways.
MikeCapone 14y ago
If I had to guess at a glance, I'd say maybe Chuck Feeney: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Feeney#Education http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Feeney#Education
- dfriedmn 14y ago
  Oh come on, we know it's Derek Jeter. Jeter IS kalamazoo.
  - mikeyouse 14y ago
    Jeter's net worth is something near $125mm, the Promise campaign has given out over $30mm so far. As nice of a guy as Jeter is, I don't think he's given up 1/4 of his wealth. Smarter money is on the Stryker family (http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2010/09/three_kalamazooans_with_stryke.html http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2010/0...) and the Upjohn family. The combined wealth of the two families is ~$10B and they have pretty strong Kalamazoo ties.
  - MikeCapone 14y ago
    You might be right, I was just guessing on what I knew, and I don't know Derek Jeter.
tokenadult 14y ago
"The Promise was created against a backdrop of recent economic thought that considers investment in education better than nearly every other kind of developmental effort when it comes to promoting economic growth." That's the kind of thinking that turned east Asia from a place of wretched poverty to a place of wealth in my lifetime.
- riffraff 14y ago
  I want to believe your statement, but could you share some references for it? I mean, some clue that education has been the driving force in the growth of east asian countries, rather than internal/external factors of other kinds.
  - batgaijin 14y ago
    Singapore.
    - jbee 14y ago
      Not to discount the benefit of education in promoting economic growth –especially in developing countries, but I don’t think you can say it is the driving force. There are so many other factors. Particularly for Singapore, its economic growth is probably better attributed to very low tax rates attracting overseas business and investment, low cost foreign workers to exploit due to little to no labour laws, and (unlike most of south-east Asia) extremely low crime and corruption. But I’m not an economist.
    - riffraff 14y ago
      this is an example rather than a reference. (Is it? when did singapore start to invest a lot on education? WolframAlpha believes that the country had high growth since 1965[0], which would be the year of the independence) I was more looking to something like books, articles, researches that would explain how _investments in education_ in eastern countries have been the most effective on growth, rather than everything else. Or the opposite, say, the last 20 years of low growth in japan are due to disinvestments in education. [0] http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=singapore+gdp+growth+rate+1900-2012 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=singapore+gdp+growth+ra...
steiza 14y ago
Only now as an adult, having grown up in southwest Michigan, do I appreciate how unusual the region is. The amount of culture and philanthropy in area is very high considering the population. In Kalamazoo there's the Kalamazoo Area Math and Science Center (thank you Upjohn family), the Gilmore Keyboard Festival (thank you Gilmore family), the philanthropic work of the Stryker family, ... the list goes on and on. About an hour north of Kalamazoo is Grand Rapids, another major Michigan metro area, which is also defined by philanthropy: Art Prize (thank you DeVos family) and the Fredrick Meijer sculpture park (thank you Meijer family), just to name a few. Are all towns in the United States like this?
- revicon 14y ago
  I grew up in Kalamazoo. Living in other places makes me wish everywhere was like Kalamazoo.
gwern 14y ago
Interesting how little effect they describe it as having on teen pregnancy and dropout rates.
Dylan16807 14y ago
With every added student, the school district gets another $7,250 from the state. That's per year, right? That's very close to the $4,200/semester number. So the college payments are almost equivalent to extending education from K12 to K16. That means that this could be done, even without donations, across the country.
- gvb 14y ago
  There is a substantial difference: the $7,250 from the state doesn't come out of thin air, it comes out of the pockets of the Michigan taxpayers. The $8,400 per year for college comes out of the "Kalamazoo Promise" donation, not out of taxpayers' pockets. I am not aware of any state that has been able to convince taxpayers to fund the additional four years[1]. The "Kalamazoo Promise" sidesteps that issue via private funding[2]. [1] States typically (heavily) subsidize college tuition for in-state students. [2] The "Kalamazoo Promise" implicitly relies on Michigan state college tuition subsidies to achieve their tuition payment promise. https://www.kalamazoopromise.com/ParticipatingCollegesUniversities https://www.kalamazoopromise.com/ParticipatingCollegesUniver...
  - Dylan16807 14y ago
    Well of course it's different. I prefer the state paying because it actually scales to all students in the country. So your reminder that the state is already paying part of the bill makes this sound even better; they would only have to pay a small fraction more to provide full educational coverage!
beloch 14y ago
I'd say the kids of Kalamazoo could use a break given the kind of stuff they have to deal with. http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/letters/Nose+Hill+Park+confrontation+makes+visitors+feel+unsafe/7050028/story.html http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/letters/Nose+Hill+Park+... Note: The above Kalamazoo sheriff is probably not quite as paranoid as the story suggests since Kalamzoo has a murder rate almost 7 times higher than Calgary despite being roughtly 1/14'th the size. If Kalamazoo is that dangerous, it's natural to assume a much bigger city would be even more dangerous. Still, that's one sheriff I wouldn't want to run into in a Kalamazoo park, let alone a dark alley!
- Danieru 14y ago
  For those rare non-calgarians: the stampede is a large local rodeo. It is a very big thing here, about the closest thing possible to a city wide festival. All week businesses provide pancake breakfasts and people wear cowboy hats. There is about a 0% chance that "Have you been to the stampede?" was a euphemism for "Give me all your money, eh".
- Dylan16807 14y ago
  Isn't murder rate per capita? I fail to see how size matters. Also this says the murder rate is half the Michigan average: http://m.countyhealthrankings.org/node/1404/15 http://m.countyhealthrankings.org/node/1404/15 The sheriff is apparently not very good at being off-duty, oh well.
  - fjorder 14y ago
    I think a popular misconception is that small-towns are safer than big cities. Calgary ------- 2011 Population: 1,096,833 2011 homicides: 10 Rate: 0.91 per 100,000 people Kalamazoo --------- 2011 Population: 74,262 2011 Homicides: 5 Rate: 6.73 per 100,000 So the homicide rate in Kalamazoo is 7.4 times higher. So much for small-town peace and quiet!
tete 14y ago
Coming from a European country where we still have free university I think it's a good thing. Sadly things are changing. Now there are limitations, first universities where you have to pay and ever since this was introduced you can follow how the rankings fall and fall. Note for people from the US: College/University is harder to attend to (graduating from high school is harder) and it's also harder to stay in there (or not take long), so it's still not like everyone can attend it which sucks, because the reason may besides personal problems may be the fact that you are not good at something you won't ever need again anyway. Also on personal experience stuff like math is completely different at college anyway, if you study CS.
grandalf 14y ago
I wonder if Anonymous is taking credit for this.
rmason 14y ago
FYI Kalamazoo has three venture capital firms whereas to my knowledge Grand Rapids and Lansing have none. In fact until a few years ago there weren't any VC's in the Detroit city limits.
- mikeyouse 14y ago
  This is untrue. I don't know about Lansing, but there is a ton of angel / venture activity in Grand Rapids. There is now an engineering school (http://www.gvsu.edu/engineering/ http://www.gvsu.edu/engineering/), a medical school (http://news.msu.edu/story/8262/ http://news.msu.edu/story/8262/), a multi-billion dollar biotech research facility -- which grants PhDs (http://vai.org/ http://vai.org/) all in downtown GR. VCs: http://www.bridgestreetcapital.com http://www.bridgestreetcapital.com | http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2011/08/grand_rapids_venture_firm_hope.html http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2011/0... | http://www.maf-1.com/ http://www.maf-1.com/ Angels: http://www.grandangels.com/ http://www.grandangels.com/ Coworking Spaces: http://workthefactory.com/ http://workthefactory.com/ | http://www.workcottage.com/ http://www.workcottage.com/ Incubators: http://www.wmsti.org/about.htm http://www.wmsti.org/about.htm | http://www.accelmich.org/default.aspx http://www.accelmich.org/default.aspx | http://www.gvsu.edu/marec/ http://www.gvsu.edu/marec/
- johnrgrace 14y ago
  Just yesterday I was at the grand opening of www.startgarden.com in Grand Rapids, they're giving out two $5,000 "experment" investments every single week one of which is ONLY determined by people voting on the net. I've made the call to found my startup in Grand Rapids, the cost of everything is just so much lower than the valley that you can get a LOT more runway for funding. Plus in your seed round the state will co-invest up to $250k on a dollar for dollar basis.
jeffpersonified 14y ago
Having grown up in Michigan, this isn't anything particularly new. Kalamazoo has been at this for a while (perhaps the donor), and although it's phenomenal, I'm surprised it's at the top of HN.
humanfromearth 14y ago
It was batman!
szpilman 14y ago
I usually let out some man-tears on especially touching movie scenes, book passages, music verses and family occasions, but I'm pretty much sure this is the first time I couldn't hold it while reading an article. At least 5 times. "The Promise" sounds like some utopian sci-fi plot, and the childrens' thank you notes for their unseen benefactors are more than heartwarming. These kind of investments that empower and multiply their effects are the farthest reaching long-term, and just brilliant. Now I want to be a billionaire.
jedmeyers 14y ago
Scott's Tots

And now. Whatever you do. No. Whatever. You. Do. Do. NOT. Turn back on this promise. Make it happen. No ifs, ands, or buts. Period. And colleges. If somehow, something terrible happens, and the money stops coming in. Let those kids finish for free anyway. Anything less is the newest worst thing that could happen to these kids and then adults. [edit: I am curious about the downvotes. From what I gathered, the people that these donors have chosen to help are the downtrodden of this area. Much of their life may have been spent in a world of people not fulfilling their world. Fathers leaving, etc. The last thing these kids need is for yet another promise to be left unfulfilled, be it by red-tape or just some series of unfortunate events. Despite that, these children need to have the results of the promise fulfilled.]

dhughes 14y ago
The article stated > blind to family income levels, to pupils’ grades and even to disciplinary and criminal records...
- sukuriant 14y ago
  That doesn't stop bureaucracy from changing that decision or for the people that are donating to be sent to jail/etc before they can finish their promises.
  - anigbrowl 14y ago
    Put the bong down, and reread this tomorrow.It may not have occurred to you, but the norm in phalinthropy is to establish legal structures at the outset which prevent those sorts of outcomes. You appear to think the money has either been handed over as a lump sum or is being delivered on an ad-hoc basis. Neither is likely.
    - sukuriant 14y ago
      I don't smoke pot, thanks. That said, I didn't know that detail how these things usually work, though that does make sense and pleases me to hear.
    - sukuriant 14y ago
      Ah, I see what you were saying. The "criminal records" there is in reference to the children, not those providing the money. I was concerned about the people providing the money.
msellout 14y ago
The down-votes may be in response to the style of your prose and that your comment is directed to people that (most likely) do not read this forum. If you want to engage with the other forum readers, perhaps you should have said something along the lines of: "I worry that this funding promise will be broken if the donors lose some of their wealth. If that occurs, the children's lives may be worse than if the promise were never made in the first place." I happen to disagree with that sentiment. I understand that giving and then taking away can be worse than no action, but I doubt that the donors' wealth is so volatile that the funds would run out before a large cohort graduates college.
- sukuriant 14y ago
  Forgive me; but, you say you disagree with the sentiment, but you disagree with it on the bounds that the thing you're disagreeing with is unlikely to happen. That doesn't change the damage that could/would happen if the unfortunate thing DID happen; and that shouldn't cause you to disagree with the sentiment, from my understanding. Perhaps I'm understanding you incorrectly? I read what you said as: * Taking A away after giving A is worse than never giving A in the first place. * People giving A are probably not in a position to lose A. * Therefore, I disagree that losing A would be a bad thing.
geoffschmidt 14y ago
Re downvotes -- using periods like that for emphasis (in the first line of your post) is like typing your message in all caps for emphasis. It makes your argument harder to read, but it doesn't make it more persuasive. And it makes people not really want to talk with you -- you're signaling that you're not going to engage them intellectually, you're just going to get offended and shout at them if they disagree with you.
- sukuriant 14y ago
  That's reasonable

unfoldedorigami 14y ago

What's fascinating to me is that because it prevented the surrounding communities from growing at the expense of Kalamazoo, those districts invested even more in their schools and education infrastructure to compete with the city with The Promise. I would have predicted the exact opposite. Super interesting.

thewordis 14y ago

I went to college there and live one city over (25 minute drive). There are a lot of wealthy people living in the area, multimillionaires in the suburbs, but also a lot of poverty. A _lot_ of poverty. I'm glad to see someone trying something new, even on such a small scale. I was almost tempted to look for housing within the Kzoo city limits because of the Promise, but I don't plan on having children any time soon. We need more such experiments and resultant data.

mahmud 14y ago

What would be the unintended negative consequences of this? It reminds me of the story of a West African king who went on a pilgrimage to Mecca. On his way to Arabia, the king gifted so much gold to all intervening communities that the price of gold crashed, taking with it the economies of North Africa and Arabia.

arjunnarayan 14y ago
Reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_I_of_Mali#Islam_and_pilgrimage_to_Mecca http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musa_I_of_Mali#Islam_and_pilgri...
gmrple 14y ago
Only downside I could possibly see is someone taking their education more lightly because they don't have to pay for it.
- mgkimsal 14y ago
  Many people aren't "paying for it" today already - can we judge if they're taking it more or less lightly than they otherwise would have? Given that we have 20 year olds taking on tens of thousands of dollars in debt, when I don't really think most of them have any perspective at all to judge the seriousness of that, I'm not sure we can say that everyone going to college today is 'paying for it'. We might say that many of them are paying for it (in many senses of the phrase) for years/decades to come.
  - gmrple 14y ago
    I didn't pay for my education. I am very thankful for that. I wasn't judging, I promise, only observing :).
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
ktizo 14y ago
More people learning stuff doesn't devalue the learning that other people do, it adds to it. The economics of ideas are not the same as the economics of physical commodities.

alttag 14y ago

Wow. That's neat. I once had a conversation with a state legislator where he argued it wasn't the responsibility of government to provide grant and loan opportunities for higher education, and that by doing so, the federal government was disincentivizing saving and investing. Instead, he argued universities should be more market driven (which I will concede might introduce more price competition in the face of rapidly rising tuition rates). He was a firm believer that a university education should be something one works and sacrifices for. In my elected position with public education at the time, I disagreed (and still disagree) with some of his claims, believing a subsidized higher education experience for a expanded pool of people is a long-term net gain compared to crime/prison costs and the cost of government-funded social safety net programs. (Although, again, college-student families admittedly qualify for most government assistance programs already, but this is hopefully a short-term rather than lifetime dependence.) I'd love to see the long-term effects on the quality of life, debt, and employment prospects of these students.

quesera 14y ago
I respect your position, and agree with parts of it. But I am bothered by the vast amounts of grant and loan money that get absorbed directly by colleges, raising the cost for everyone and creating a positive feedback loop that requires endlessly more taxes and debt to sustain. I feel we've been sold a bill of goods ("opportunity through higher ed -- don't let your kids fall behind in the new global economy, etc etc") that is way past the point of rationality.
- chii 14y ago
  I think its a balancing act - but i guess grants is worse than loans. Granting "free" money will indeed cause problems, but a loan that is required to be repaid seems like the right way to go in the long term, provided that after the higher education is completed the individual in question is able to actually provide value.
  - luu 14y ago
    This has it exactly backwards. Consider this simple (and very simplified) example. The NPV of college is $100k. The marginal student can scrape together $10k to go to college. The marginal cost of a student is less than $10k for the college. How much will the college charge? $10k. What's the benefit to the student? $90k. What if an $89.9k subsidized grant is available? Now the college can charge $99.9k. What's the benefit to the student? Still $90k. Now lets say an $89.9k loan is made available. The college can still charge $99.9k. What's the benefit to the student? $.1k. This is actually happening (though it isn't quite so extreme). The existence of loans is allowing colleges to capture more of the value of college from student. The real world is actually worse than this simplified example in a lot of ways. Many degrees aren't worth it (from a purely monetary perspective), and the result is probabilistic, but student loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy, and payment is up front (w.r.t. a person's career), so the student takes on the risk, but the college gets the reward regardless.

dkroy 14y ago

I am very jealous of these students, I entered my post college life in the hole like many other students. Luckily, the tech world is in a completely different state than the rest of the job world when it comes to looking for a place to practice your profession.

wtvanhest 14y ago

Scott's Tots?

fastball 14y ago
Let's hope it doesn't pan out that way...

kqr2 14y ago

Actually, it's donors (plural). They are collectively called the Kalamazoo Promise. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalamazoo_Promise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalamazoo_Promise

jjguy 14y ago
The words "donors" in that wikipedia page have remained unchanged since the original page shell in May 2006. Considering also the NYT article explicitly discusses donor vs. donors, I view the wikipedia characterization more as editorial convenience than evidence. That said, my common sense tends to agree with you. Is there evidence elsewhere?
- gareim 14y ago
  The article uses "donors" several times. I think while it's amazing if one person is willing to sponsor, it's even more amazing if there are many out there who believe in a brighter future for them. That actually makes me happier, knowing that it's donors and not a donor. "When asked how the conversations that led to the Promise unfolded, Brown demurs. “That, and the identity of the donors, are things I just will never talk about,” she says. "

carioca3 14y ago

Anonymous? If memory serves me right it is the Stryker family that provides the scholarships.

r0ll3rb0t 14y ago
Could be many... Upjohn, Stryker, Gilmore; there are many big names in Kalamazoo.
antidaily 14y ago
That'd be my guess.
sliverstorm 14y ago
Even if their identities aren't as well-hidden as covert espionage informants, that doesn't mean we should broadcast it if they have clearly elected to be quiet about it themselves.

kevinconroy 14y ago

From Wikipedia: "To receive a full scholarship, students must have attended Kalamazoo public schools since kindergarten. The program, unveiled at a November 10, 2005, Kalamazoo Board of Education meeting, is also viewed as an economic development tool for Kalamazoo. Since the Kalamazoo Promise was announced, enrollment in the school district has grown by 16%, test scores have improved, and a greater proportion of high-school graduates are attending college. In 2010 alone, the Kalamazoo Public School district saw enrollment rise 3% to 12,409." Have to be there K-12 to get full tuition. There's a chart that shows the sliding scale based on your length of attendance. Most interesting part is that if you move in for the tail end of high school you get 0% covered to prevent people from temporarily joining the community just for the tuition. Attendance -> Proportion of full tuition K–12 100% 1–12 95% 2–12 95% 3–12 95% 4–12 90% 5–12 85% 6–12 80% 7–12 75% 8–12 70% 9–12 65% 10–12 None 11–12 None 12 None http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalamazoo_Promise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalamazoo_Promise EDIT: Added table.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

femto 14y ago

On the assumption this is a good thing, let's say every town/state rolls such a scheme out. Now every student in the nation is having their tuition paid. It's also costing about the same amount as if the government levied taxes and paid the costs. A negative, compared to government funding, is that the economy has lost mobility of labour. Getting a full scholarship requires the child to be enrolled from K-12. Loss of mobility might be a good thing, in that it prompts people to improve their local economy, rather than run away. Alternatively, it could lock people into a form of serfdom, unable to move to better their situation. I'd advocate that a voucher system, whereby the government gives each student a voucher for the degree of their choice, would be preferable to the widespread adoption of "the promise".

kevinconroy 14y ago
Lack of mobility is a key part of the experiment here. It's an economic growth strategy - attract families that value education, get them to set up roots, and the local economy will benefit. If this were to roll out on a national level then it would be much similar to public school, but rather than K-12, it'd be K-BA. Maybe there'd be vouchers, maybe not. The point is that this is an experimental model for economic growth and social benefit for the town, not the model for the entire nation.
- 001sky 14y ago
  This is totally interesting point. The experiment has to be seen as the 18 year time-frame. How many Parents can rationally expect 18 years in Job? That type of career is getting further away from the norm, it seems
  - ChuckMcM 14y ago
    There are a number of small town jobs where this can be true, even what some might consider 'temp' work like waitstaff or gardener. There are of course the 'professional' careers, like lawyer, doctor, or accountant, and of course civil jobs like police officer, firefighter, clerk. The interesting bit comes when you're thinking about investing, say to build a gas station or a wallmart, knowing that the population will be relatively stable is an incentive. They don't constrain where the kids go, they can go to any school that they are accepted to AFAICT from the article. So some schools might recruit them knowing they won't need financial aid. It is a fascinating experiment in so many ways.

MikeCapone 14y ago

If I had to guess at a glance, I'd say maybe Chuck Feeney: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Feeney#Education http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Feeney#Education

dfriedmn 14y ago
Oh come on, we know it's Derek Jeter. Jeter IS kalamazoo.
- mikeyouse 14y ago
  Jeter's net worth is something near $125mm, the Promise campaign has given out over $30mm so far. As nice of a guy as Jeter is, I don't think he's given up 1/4 of his wealth. Smarter money is on the Stryker family (http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2010/09/three_kalamazooans_with_stryke.html http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2010/0...) and the Upjohn family. The combined wealth of the two families is ~$10B and they have pretty strong Kalamazoo ties.
- MikeCapone 14y ago
  You might be right, I was just guessing on what I knew, and I don't know Derek Jeter.

tokenadult 14y ago

"The Promise was created against a backdrop of recent economic thought that considers investment in education better than nearly every other kind of developmental effort when it comes to promoting economic growth." That's the kind of thinking that turned east Asia from a place of wretched poverty to a place of wealth in my lifetime.

riffraff 14y ago
I want to believe your statement, but could you share some references for it? I mean, some clue that education has been the driving force in the growth of east asian countries, rather than internal/external factors of other kinds.
- batgaijin 14y ago
  Singapore.
  - jbee 14y ago
    Not to discount the benefit of education in promoting economic growth –especially in developing countries, but I don’t think you can say it is the driving force. There are so many other factors. Particularly for Singapore, its economic growth is probably better attributed to very low tax rates attracting overseas business and investment, low cost foreign workers to exploit due to little to no labour laws, and (unlike most of south-east Asia) extremely low crime and corruption. But I’m not an economist.
  - riffraff 14y ago
    this is an example rather than a reference. (Is it? when did singapore start to invest a lot on education? WolframAlpha believes that the country had high growth since 1965[0], which would be the year of the independence) I was more looking to something like books, articles, researches that would explain how _investments in education_ in eastern countries have been the most effective on growth, rather than everything else. Or the opposite, say, the last 20 years of low growth in japan are due to disinvestments in education. [0] http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=singapore+gdp+growth+rate+1900-2012 http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=singapore+gdp+growth+ra...

steiza 14y ago

Only now as an adult, having grown up in southwest Michigan, do I appreciate how unusual the region is. The amount of culture and philanthropy in area is very high considering the population. In Kalamazoo there's the Kalamazoo Area Math and Science Center (thank you Upjohn family), the Gilmore Keyboard Festival (thank you Gilmore family), the philanthropic work of the Stryker family, ... the list goes on and on. About an hour north of Kalamazoo is Grand Rapids, another major Michigan metro area, which is also defined by philanthropy: Art Prize (thank you DeVos family) and the Fredrick Meijer sculpture park (thank you Meijer family), just to name a few. Are all towns in the United States like this?

revicon 14y ago
I grew up in Kalamazoo. Living in other places makes me wish everywhere was like Kalamazoo.

gwern 14y ago

Interesting how little effect they describe it as having on teen pregnancy and dropout rates.

Dylan16807 14y ago

With every added student, the school district gets another $7,250 from the state. That's per year, right? That's very close to the $4,200/semester number. So the college payments are almost equivalent to extending education from K12 to K16. That means that this could be done, even without donations, across the country.

gvb 14y ago
There is a substantial difference: the $7,250 from the state doesn't come out of thin air, it comes out of the pockets of the Michigan taxpayers. The $8,400 per year for college comes out of the "Kalamazoo Promise" donation, not out of taxpayers' pockets. I am not aware of any state that has been able to convince taxpayers to fund the additional four years[1]. The "Kalamazoo Promise" sidesteps that issue via private funding[2]. [1] States typically (heavily) subsidize college tuition for in-state students. [2] The "Kalamazoo Promise" implicitly relies on Michigan state college tuition subsidies to achieve their tuition payment promise. https://www.kalamazoopromise.com/ParticipatingCollegesUniversities https://www.kalamazoopromise.com/ParticipatingCollegesUniver...
- Dylan16807 14y ago
  Well of course it's different. I prefer the state paying because it actually scales to all students in the country. So your reminder that the state is already paying part of the bill makes this sound even better; they would only have to pay a small fraction more to provide full educational coverage!

beloch 14y ago

I'd say the kids of Kalamazoo could use a break given the kind of stuff they have to deal with. http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/letters/Nose+Hill+Park+confrontation+makes+visitors+feel+unsafe/7050028/story.html http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/letters/Nose+Hill+Park+... Note: The above Kalamazoo sheriff is probably not quite as paranoid as the story suggests since Kalamzoo has a murder rate almost 7 times higher than Calgary despite being roughtly 1/14'th the size. If Kalamazoo is that dangerous, it's natural to assume a much bigger city would be even more dangerous. Still, that's one sheriff I wouldn't want to run into in a Kalamazoo park, let alone a dark alley!

Danieru 14y ago
For those rare non-calgarians: the stampede is a large local rodeo. It is a very big thing here, about the closest thing possible to a city wide festival. All week businesses provide pancake breakfasts and people wear cowboy hats. There is about a 0% chance that "Have you been to the stampede?" was a euphemism for "Give me all your money, eh".
Dylan16807 14y ago
Isn't murder rate per capita? I fail to see how size matters. Also this says the murder rate is half the Michigan average: http://m.countyhealthrankings.org/node/1404/15 http://m.countyhealthrankings.org/node/1404/15 The sheriff is apparently not very good at being off-duty, oh well.
- fjorder 14y ago
  I think a popular misconception is that small-towns are safer than big cities. Calgary ------- 2011 Population: 1,096,833 2011 homicides: 10 Rate: 0.91 per 100,000 people Kalamazoo --------- 2011 Population: 74,262 2011 Homicides: 5 Rate: 6.73 per 100,000 So the homicide rate in Kalamazoo is 7.4 times higher. So much for small-town peace and quiet!

tete 14y ago

Coming from a European country where we still have free university I think it's a good thing. Sadly things are changing. Now there are limitations, first universities where you have to pay and ever since this was introduced you can follow how the rankings fall and fall. Note for people from the US: College/University is harder to attend to (graduating from high school is harder) and it's also harder to stay in there (or not take long), so it's still not like everyone can attend it which sucks, because the reason may besides personal problems may be the fact that you are not good at something you won't ever need again anyway. Also on personal experience stuff like math is completely different at college anyway, if you study CS.

grandalf 14y ago

I wonder if Anonymous is taking credit for this.

rmason 14y ago

FYI Kalamazoo has three venture capital firms whereas to my knowledge Grand Rapids and Lansing have none. In fact until a few years ago there weren't any VC's in the Detroit city limits.

mikeyouse 14y ago
This is untrue. I don't know about Lansing, but there is a ton of angel / venture activity in Grand Rapids. There is now an engineering school (http://www.gvsu.edu/engineering/ http://www.gvsu.edu/engineering/), a medical school (http://news.msu.edu/story/8262/ http://news.msu.edu/story/8262/), a multi-billion dollar biotech research facility -- which grants PhDs (http://vai.org/ http://vai.org/) all in downtown GR. VCs: http://www.bridgestreetcapital.com http://www.bridgestreetcapital.com | http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2011/08/grand_rapids_venture_firm_hope.html http://www.mlive.com/business/west-michigan/index.ssf/2011/0... | http://www.maf-1.com/ http://www.maf-1.com/ Angels: http://www.grandangels.com/ http://www.grandangels.com/ Coworking Spaces: http://workthefactory.com/ http://workthefactory.com/ | http://www.workcottage.com/ http://www.workcottage.com/ Incubators: http://www.wmsti.org/about.htm http://www.wmsti.org/about.htm | http://www.accelmich.org/default.aspx http://www.accelmich.org/default.aspx | http://www.gvsu.edu/marec/ http://www.gvsu.edu/marec/
johnrgrace 14y ago
Just yesterday I was at the grand opening of www.startgarden.com in Grand Rapids, they're giving out two $5,000 "experment" investments every single week one of which is ONLY determined by people voting on the net. I've made the call to found my startup in Grand Rapids, the cost of everything is just so much lower than the valley that you can get a LOT more runway for funding. Plus in your seed round the state will co-invest up to $250k on a dollar for dollar basis.

jeffpersonified 14y ago

Having grown up in Michigan, this isn't anything particularly new. Kalamazoo has been at this for a while (perhaps the donor), and although it's phenomenal, I'm surprised it's at the top of HN.

humanfromearth 14y ago

It was batman!

szpilman 14y ago

I usually let out some man-tears on especially touching movie scenes, book passages, music verses and family occasions, but I'm pretty much sure this is the first time I couldn't hold it while reading an article. At least 5 times. "The Promise" sounds like some utopian sci-fi plot, and the childrens' thank you notes for their unseen benefactors are more than heartwarming. These kind of investments that empower and multiply their effects are the farthest reaching long-term, and just brilliant. Now I want to be a billionaire.

jedmeyers 14y ago

Scott's Tots