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NASA finds Titan's lakes may be creating vesicles with primitive cell walls
- andrewflnr 1y agoThe linked paper is open access: https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-journal-of-astrobiology/article/proposed-mechanism-for-the-formation-of-protocelllike-structures-on-titan/F4093F34F6FD80380CEE909C37B2CECE https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/international-journa... Among other things, it contains details on what amphiphiles might actually be present on Titan, a very nice set of diagrams explaining their proposed process, and proposals for lab experiments to verify whether the process is possible. I've had a soft spot for the vesicle-first theory of abiogenesis since I first heard of it, so I hope someone runs the experiments. But as far as I can tell, this is all theoretical so far.
- rolph 1y agoamphiphillic vesicles are a stepping stone for persistent molecular forms. essentially a reaction vessel, insulating the contents from the extravesicular mayhem.
- jojobas 1y agoIt's thought that life on Earth started with RNA mayhem, not with vessels to isolate from it.
- andrewflnr 1y agoRNA world is mainstream, but a few scientists have proposed that something like cell membranes, such as these vesicles, came first and provided the environment for more complex chemistry.
- evrimoztamur 1y agoLife exists at the boundaries of density changes. It makes absolutely no sense that the code would precede the hardware, and the hardware needs shielding.
- fooker 1y agoFunny that code did predate hardware.
- cmrx64 1y agotransmembrane proteins are complex hardware of their own…
- andrewflnr 1y agoIn defense of RNA: you know about ribozymes, right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribozyme https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ribozyme Life does not really respect a code/hardware divide.
- oh_fiddlesticks 1y agoThe source code of life is recorded and transmitted using physical matter. Physics very much matters to matter. For development of any information storage systems made of molecules, there must be a supportive development environment. To even start the process of doing anything like what we see happening in a cell, homeostasis must be achieved first, and not inelegantly, its not good enough to have a complete cell wall if it has no ports for entry and exit of nutrients and waste product, thats also known as a coffin. Both the walls and the gates and the information / physical systems to reliably exploit those features must be present at the same time to enable abiogenesis.
- tomrod 1y agoI see where you're coming from, but I think you're thinking across too far over the boundary. Quantum mechanics aren't ordinarily affected by non-sentient life, they're just primitive to the environment at the macro level.
- IAmBroom 1y agoThere are a lot of different opinions on how life on Earth started, even amongst scientists studying it, and none of them are strongly supported by substantial, reproduced evidence.
- griffzhowl 1y ago> It's thought that life on Earth started with RNA mayhem, not with vessels to isolate from it. They're not mutually exclusive. You could have various kinds of autocatalytic sets of molecules, including RNA, inside and outside lipid vesicles, and some of them might have re-produced better than others. Anything that could have happened in an open ocean of nuleotides and amino acids could also take place within a lipid vesicle, just that within some vesicle maybe the right concentrations of molecules had at some point emerged that could more easily reproduce itself than in the open ocean where the particular autocatalytic set could be washed away by the surrounding molecular chaos.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- ggm 1y agoI like the "vesicle first" theory because planar sheets of reaction can form perturbations, so getting from two surfaces mixing to complex shapes and enclosures feels plausible given any significant vibration or wave. Once you have an enclosure you have potential for osmosis and other differentials across the boundary. It's not life Jim, but it's one hell of a building block/precursor.
- cantor_S_drug 1y agohttps://youtu.be/niIZVU-0fZg https://youtu.be/niIZVU-0fZg Solaris by Stanislaw Lem on the topic of Ocean is Conscious.
- polishdude20 1y agoThis is very similar to Nick Lane's theory of the origins of life.
- Insanity 1y agoJust want to link his book exploring this idea and give it my recommendations, FWIW: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26530386-the-vital-question https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26530386-the-vital-quest.... It's a good read, and I still think about the concept of origin of life in these terms every now and then.
- dash2 1y agoThis feels very cynical, but what incentive does NASA have to do research showing alien life is not very likely in our solar system?
- jiggawatts 1y agoThis is a point I keep making: every one of NASA’s Mars missions has very carefully excluded any scientific instrument that could conclusively eliminate the presence of life... and hence future missions to find life. I.e.: they don’t carry high power microscopes because apparently there’s no room for one on a 900kg rover the size of a car.
- Scarblac 1y agoWhat kind of instrument could conclusively eliminate presence of life?
- keithwhor 1y agoOne that goes boom.
- lukan 1y agoSome bacteria survives hard radiation of deep space in stasis mode.
- jiggawatts 1y agoAnything that can return a sample. Notice that Curiosity collects samples, but omits the sample return rocket. A good enough microscope can easily tell the difference between life and non-life, especially in the presence of water. If it moves on its own, it is almost certainly alive! Certain kinds of chromatographs can conclusively determine that no complex chemicals are present, the kind essential to life. I.e.: if only simple metal oxides and the like are present, then you have only a rock.
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- Padriac 1y ago[flagged]
- metalman 1y agoThis article is a wonderfull fever dream of genisis.Though it's starting point is mundane. The whole vesicle theory is built on a physical/mechanical process ubiquitous in nature,that so far has no connection with life. Wildly suggestive and so so close, but when you look at the actual way vesicles are made, and cell walls are made, they are not the same, but have the same properties, as it lkely that physics and chemistry only allow for tiny bubbles(cue track), to form in a limited number of ways, one is an accident, and the other a mystery.
- IAmBroom 1y ago> The whole vesicle theory is built on a physical/mechanical process ubiquitous in nature,that so far has no connection with life. To be fair, the conditions that were ubiquitous on Earth when life first formed are now extraordinarily rare, if they exist anywhere at all on the planet.
- metalman 1y agoyes, and many experiments have shown.that analigs of those conditions have yielded various amino acids usedby life forms, but never amino acids inside vesicles. foams/vesicles are ubiquitous positing there existance and conflating that with life on Titan is a big ask, if, IF they has included a statement along the lines that "vesicles are certain to be found anywhere in the universe where liquid water exists" then it would be completly acceptable and could be viewed as an exercise in creative chemical theory to be investigated, but as is, it's a fever dream
- Dave_Wishengrad 1y ago[dead]
- neutrinobro 1y agoTitan is completely dead, you can bet on that.
- IAmBroom 1y agoI would bet on that, but not with absolute certainty.
- neutrinobro 1y ago[flagged]
- IAmBroom 1y agoBut I saw a movie where some tentacled thing ate the first astronaut to go there!
- markus_zhang 1y agoOK so maybe they should drop a monolith there instead.
- Iv 1y ago*methane and ethane lakes Thought it could be a useful precision.
- graypegg 1y agoAh... so you're telling me I should delay my plans for the firepit on the titan lake-side human-alien diplomacy embassy? I feel like I won't be able to show them a great time without s'mores.
- alessandru 1y ago[flagged]
- dekhn 1y agoThis isn't really a "finding"- it's a theoretical prediction based on observed data, along with a proposed experimental apparatus to detect such items. I don't really get excited for theoretical predictions like this - I want experimental observations!
- quantum_magpie 1y ago[flagged]
- dekhn 1y agoI have a clue, and my point is not pedantic, it's clarifying. If they found- using experimental apparatus- some physical evidence, it would be a 'finding'.
- plumb_bob_00 1y agoGP was rude and out of line, but to be frank with you, it is pedantic to quibble about the definition of the word "finding", a word which doesn't even appear in the article (yes, I did see the title). If the research doesn't interest or impress you, there's plenty of other articles.
- Razengan 1y agoIf all life starts at the microscopic scale, then the most common life in the universe will be microscopic. Does that mean the most common forms of intelligent life in the universe may be very small too? Or is there a minimum body size required for "intelligence"?
- lifestyleguru 1y agoWithin the Solar System we are the only life, look further, much much further. What's the probability of life developing on TWO bodies within one planetary system? Looking for another life within Solar System is exceptionalism similar to geocentrism.
- Dave_Wishengrad 1y ago[dead]