7 ms·

The only thing I hated worse than going into the office was our remote employees, who never seemed to be available when you needed them, had their status set to

The only thing I hated worse than going into the office was our remote employees, who never seemed to be available when you needed them, had their status set to Away (or wouldn't respond for hours if they were green). It was a privilege, people abused it, and now it's over. And managers were the worst offenders.

christhecaribou 1y ago
And yet here you are, perpetuating the “crabs in a bucket” mentality that continues to be a blight on our industry.
- titanomachy 1y ago
  A manager who’s not doing their job and is never reachable can be pretty demoralizing. That same manager would probably not be great in person either, but at least you’d know where to find them. As long as a company is able and willing to move out or correct low performers quickly, remote work is fine.
  - rgblambda 1y ago
    >but at least you’d know where to find them. In my experience, managers of that calibre tend to fuck off to a meeting room first chance they get and hide there until around 4 when they slip out.
SilverElfin 1y ago
That seems like an issue of company leadership and culture. There are many remote companies where this isn’t true. I’ve seen comments from Amazon workers talking about they were much more productive in a remote work situation, even though their leader (Andy Jassy) chose to make the company go back to the office 5 days a week with invasive monitoring of how people badge in and out.
kokanee 1y ago
Interesting. I've been remote for 5 years across three different companies, and if anything I've had the opposite experience: my remote coworkers are far more responsive than my on-site coworkers, who are always in meetings, in transit, having in-person chit chat, or taking a break.
- ranit 1y ago
  And remote workers are available for much longer hours than the office workers or comparing to the old times when everybody was in the office.
- drewbitt 1y ago
  That's the experience I have had too, particularly regarding managers who are in the office for the day. They are not spending much time at their desk.
  - Aurornis 1y ago
    > particularly regarding managers who are in the office for the day. They are not spending much time at their desk I mean, that's the point of RTO: These companies want people meeting face to face more and sitting alone at their computers less. I argue that this means it makes more sense for managers and leaders than ICs as a result.
    - snarfy 1y ago
      This is really the crux of it, and I think a larger motivator than is given credit. If wfh = +2 Engineering -2 Management and you are weak on management, you RTO.
- basisword 1y ago
  >> my remote coworkers are far more responsive than my on-site coworkers, who are always in meetings, in transit, having in-person chit chat, or taking a break. 1. In meetings - working 2. In transit - before and after working hours 3. Having in person chit-chat - working 4. Taking a break - remote workers should also take these >> I've had the opposite experience I think it depends on the type of people you're working with. I've found hand-on engineers (i.e. people writing code) are really available and perhaps they shouldn't be. Business-type people are so much more reliably flaky.
ariwilson 1y ago
I have a more nuanced take here. For low performing or junior employees, remote work was generally a terrible thing that led to less productivity (and more managerial overhead). For strongly performing employees with obligations at home, there were many who preferred working at home. I fall more into the latter camp (at least I hope so) and, given I've only worked in nice offices with catered lunches, gyms, video games, offsites, etc, I enjoy a 3 day hybrid schedule works best for me.
- camdroidw 1y ago
  How would one go about making a policy that rewards high performance with remote work permit?
  - geodel 1y ago
    Times are changing. A couple of years back people would not only work from home but angrily demand that employers need to share all that office cost saving with employees who are working remotely.
- sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
  Remote work used to be an earned privilege. Then COVID hit and everyone got a taste of it. Including the folks who discovered they could get paid to stay home and play video games and jackin' off during work hours. In a way you could say this group ruined it for everyone. But that's usually how these things go. The hammer comes down on everyone because otherwise it leads to uncomfortable questions like "why does HE get to work from home and I don't?" and people getting doctor's notes claiming they're autistic and can't be around people and that's why they can't ever see the inside of an office.
  - bryanlarsen 1y ago
    If you talk to a teacher the rule of thumb is that 2 problem children in a classroom of 25-30 can be handled, but 3 ruins the whole class. Seems like a similar situation here.
  - 1y ago
basisword 1y ago
This is the issue. Too many people take the absolute piss with it. On the opposite end of the spectrum you have people who don't switch off and put in a lot of extra hours essentially picking up the slack. I'm finding a lot more people (both at work and amongst friends) who are desperate to avoid speaking on calls or turning their video on because it makes them nervous. Probably healthier for everyone to just be in the office.
lbrito 1y ago
[flagged]
rgblambda 1y ago
I'm very pro remote working, but I think people like me need to realize that this is a real issue. It happens in the office too, but it's a bit harder to get away with, and it's really a performance management issue which brings us nicely to your second point. I agree, managers are always the worst offenders when it comes to this sort of thing. But they do the same in the office by disappearing into meeting rooms for the entire day. I'd love to know how you can effectively manage a team by constantly being in meetings with other managers.
- ghaff 1y ago
  >I'd love to know how you can effectively manage a team by constantly being in meetings with other managers. Hopefully, they work meetings with their team in but meeting with other managers is a big part of their job--and shielding people from stuff coming down from above.
thr0waway001 1y ago
At our company some people outright admitted on a survey sent out to employees that they would go out and run errands during work hours. Like, how stupid do you have to be to kill your golden goose of life work balance?
- jghn 1y ago
  > that they would go out and run errands during work hours So? I do this when I work in an office, and I do this when I work remote. If someone doesn't like it, they can go screw. I put in my hours, and I get my work done. I don't see what this has to do with remote work. Although I also don't see why anyone would care.
- Bluescreenbuddy 1y ago
  I literally do this IN the office. I will step away and go to a coffee shop and pick something up. Hell I ask my boss if they want anything. I may go for a walk and get a breather. Go to a doc appointment. GO get my teeth cleaned. My bosses do not give a shit as long as my tasks are done to the standard.
- Aurornis 1y ago
  That's nothing. One company near me had parents cancel their daycare when they were allowed to WFH. A lot of employees were trying to care for young kids and "work" at the same time.
  - Rohansi 1y ago
    I don't see the issue with this as long as the parents would still be putting the same time/effort into their work. It would just be split up.
  - wiseowise 1y ago
    Why do you care as long as you have the same amount of work as before?
butlike 1y ago
Abused it in which way? Don't touch the money-makers. And if you're in the office, don't daydream about 'improvements' you could make that touch the money-makers in a vain attempt to quell your anxiety about not appearing to do anything of value.
onlyrealcuzzo 1y ago
> It was a privilege, people abused it, and now it's over. And managers were the worst offenders. IME, managers do this in the office just as much as remote. Look at the typical manager's schedule. It's completely full of meetings - most of which are bullshit "busy" meetings, and they never respond to anything timely.
- greenchair 1y ago
  spoken like a true non manager
  - wiseowise 1y ago
    Tell us about insightful conversations that you had with shareholders that keep the whole company running.
OptionOfT 1y ago
I will forever fight this with saying that chat is an async medium. If you need a response right now, pick up the phone. Worst offenders are people who say things like: Hey, how are you doing? And then ... nothing. Or maybe people are actually working on something. And your 2 minute question might cause them to lose 30 minutes. This is why it is important to have multiple work-streams going when doing remote work, so that you don't sit around and wait until you have your answer.
singlepaynews 1y ago
Reading this comment I can't help but imagine a high school student using the same pattern to respond to an "open period" being changed to "study hall" with mandatory in-library presence; which is not to dig on you, just to raise the idea that maybe k-12 education really is a conspiracy to train people to sit in factories. How/can we "montessori-fy"?
gamblor956 1y ago
I've experienced it both ways. The least available and responsive workers were remote, but the most available and responsive workers were also remote.
dakiol 1y ago
It always seems weird to me how people complain about such things. Just do your thing and don't care about others. If others are blocking you, just say so in the daily or to your manager. Easy. I don't really care about unproductive people, I care about myself.
anal_reactor 1y ago
I abuse the WFH thing because my manager promised me a raise if I complete a project and then sabotaged it, then put the blame on me, and finally changed the raise requirements. Really can't stay motivated in such an environment. If the game is "who fucks harder the other party" then don't be surprised that I watch porn during WFH and then try to convince other employees to do the same.
themafia 1y ago
> It was a privilege Hardly. It was COVID. It forced companies to do the most logical thing they could in a world of high speed internet. Many of them refused to read the writing on the wall and assumed it would return to normal one day. They made no efforts to internally reorient themselves around this new work strategy. > people abused it Other than your anecdote what evidence is there that this is true? Has the economy faltered? Is there any second source for the data which shows _any_ impact _at all_?

christhecaribou 1y ago

And yet here you are, perpetuating the “crabs in a bucket” mentality that continues to be a blight on our industry.

titanomachy 1y ago
A manager who’s not doing their job and is never reachable can be pretty demoralizing. That same manager would probably not be great in person either, but at least you’d know where to find them. As long as a company is able and willing to move out or correct low performers quickly, remote work is fine.
- rgblambda 1y ago
  >but at least you’d know where to find them. In my experience, managers of that calibre tend to fuck off to a meeting room first chance they get and hide there until around 4 when they slip out.

SilverElfin 1y ago

That seems like an issue of company leadership and culture. There are many remote companies where this isn’t true. I’ve seen comments from Amazon workers talking about they were much more productive in a remote work situation, even though their leader (Andy Jassy) chose to make the company go back to the office 5 days a week with invasive monitoring of how people badge in and out.

kokanee 1y ago

Interesting. I've been remote for 5 years across three different companies, and if anything I've had the opposite experience: my remote coworkers are far more responsive than my on-site coworkers, who are always in meetings, in transit, having in-person chit chat, or taking a break.

ranit 1y ago
And remote workers are available for much longer hours than the office workers or comparing to the old times when everybody was in the office.
drewbitt 1y ago
That's the experience I have had too, particularly regarding managers who are in the office for the day. They are not spending much time at their desk.
- Aurornis 1y ago
  > particularly regarding managers who are in the office for the day. They are not spending much time at their desk I mean, that's the point of RTO: These companies want people meeting face to face more and sitting alone at their computers less. I argue that this means it makes more sense for managers and leaders than ICs as a result.
  - snarfy 1y ago
    This is really the crux of it, and I think a larger motivator than is given credit. If wfh = +2 Engineering -2 Management and you are weak on management, you RTO.
basisword 1y ago
>> my remote coworkers are far more responsive than my on-site coworkers, who are always in meetings, in transit, having in-person chit chat, or taking a break. 1. In meetings - working 2. In transit - before and after working hours 3. Having in person chit-chat - working 4. Taking a break - remote workers should also take these >> I've had the opposite experience I think it depends on the type of people you're working with. I've found hand-on engineers (i.e. people writing code) are really available and perhaps they shouldn't be. Business-type people are so much more reliably flaky.

ariwilson 1y ago

I have a more nuanced take here. For low performing or junior employees, remote work was generally a terrible thing that led to less productivity (and more managerial overhead). For strongly performing employees with obligations at home, there were many who preferred working at home. I fall more into the latter camp (at least I hope so) and, given I've only worked in nice offices with catered lunches, gyms, video games, offsites, etc, I enjoy a 3 day hybrid schedule works best for me.

camdroidw 1y ago
How would one go about making a policy that rewards high performance with remote work permit?
- geodel 1y ago
  Times are changing. A couple of years back people would not only work from home but angrily demand that employers need to share all that office cost saving with employees who are working remotely.
sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
Remote work used to be an earned privilege. Then COVID hit and everyone got a taste of it. Including the folks who discovered they could get paid to stay home and play video games and jackin' off during work hours. In a way you could say this group ruined it for everyone. But that's usually how these things go. The hammer comes down on everyone because otherwise it leads to uncomfortable questions like "why does HE get to work from home and I don't?" and people getting doctor's notes claiming they're autistic and can't be around people and that's why they can't ever see the inside of an office.
- bryanlarsen 1y ago
  If you talk to a teacher the rule of thumb is that 2 problem children in a classroom of 25-30 can be handled, but 3 ruins the whole class. Seems like a similar situation here.
- 1y ago

basisword 1y ago

This is the issue. Too many people take the absolute piss with it. On the opposite end of the spectrum you have people who don't switch off and put in a lot of extra hours essentially picking up the slack. I'm finding a lot more people (both at work and amongst friends) who are desperate to avoid speaking on calls or turning their video on because it makes them nervous. Probably healthier for everyone to just be in the office.

lbrito 1y ago

[flagged]

rgblambda 1y ago

I'm very pro remote working, but I think people like me need to realize that this is a real issue. It happens in the office too, but it's a bit harder to get away with, and it's really a performance management issue which brings us nicely to your second point. I agree, managers are always the worst offenders when it comes to this sort of thing. But they do the same in the office by disappearing into meeting rooms for the entire day. I'd love to know how you can effectively manage a team by constantly being in meetings with other managers.

ghaff 1y ago
>I'd love to know how you can effectively manage a team by constantly being in meetings with other managers. Hopefully, they work meetings with their team in but meeting with other managers is a big part of their job--and shielding people from stuff coming down from above.

thr0waway001 1y ago

At our company some people outright admitted on a survey sent out to employees that they would go out and run errands during work hours. Like, how stupid do you have to be to kill your golden goose of life work balance?

jghn 1y ago
> that they would go out and run errands during work hours So? I do this when I work in an office, and I do this when I work remote. If someone doesn't like it, they can go screw. I put in my hours, and I get my work done. I don't see what this has to do with remote work. Although I also don't see why anyone would care.
Bluescreenbuddy 1y ago
I literally do this IN the office. I will step away and go to a coffee shop and pick something up. Hell I ask my boss if they want anything. I may go for a walk and get a breather. Go to a doc appointment. GO get my teeth cleaned. My bosses do not give a shit as long as my tasks are done to the standard.
Aurornis 1y ago
That's nothing. One company near me had parents cancel their daycare when they were allowed to WFH. A lot of employees were trying to care for young kids and "work" at the same time.
- Rohansi 1y ago
  I don't see the issue with this as long as the parents would still be putting the same time/effort into their work. It would just be split up.
- wiseowise 1y ago
  Why do you care as long as you have the same amount of work as before?

butlike 1y ago

Abused it in which way? Don't touch the money-makers. And if you're in the office, don't daydream about 'improvements' you could make that touch the money-makers in a vain attempt to quell your anxiety about not appearing to do anything of value.

onlyrealcuzzo 1y ago

> It was a privilege, people abused it, and now it's over. And managers were the worst offenders. IME, managers do this in the office just as much as remote. Look at the typical manager's schedule. It's completely full of meetings - most of which are bullshit "busy" meetings, and they never respond to anything timely.

greenchair 1y ago
spoken like a true non manager
- wiseowise 1y ago
  Tell us about insightful conversations that you had with shareholders that keep the whole company running.

OptionOfT 1y ago

I will forever fight this with saying that chat is an async medium. If you need a response right now, pick up the phone. Worst offenders are people who say things like: Hey, how are you doing? And then ... nothing. Or maybe people are actually working on something. And your 2 minute question might cause them to lose 30 minutes. This is why it is important to have multiple work-streams going when doing remote work, so that you don't sit around and wait until you have your answer.

singlepaynews 1y ago

Reading this comment I can't help but imagine a high school student using the same pattern to respond to an "open period" being changed to "study hall" with mandatory in-library presence; which is not to dig on you, just to raise the idea that maybe k-12 education really is a conspiracy to train people to sit in factories. How/can we "montessori-fy"?

gamblor956 1y ago

I've experienced it both ways. The least available and responsive workers were remote, but the most available and responsive workers were also remote.

dakiol 1y ago

It always seems weird to me how people complain about such things. Just do your thing and don't care about others. If others are blocking you, just say so in the daily or to your manager. Easy. I don't really care about unproductive people, I care about myself.

anal_reactor 1y ago

I abuse the WFH thing because my manager promised me a raise if I complete a project and then sabotaged it, then put the blame on me, and finally changed the raise requirements. Really can't stay motivated in such an environment. If the game is "who fucks harder the other party" then don't be surprised that I watch porn during WFH and then try to convince other employees to do the same.

themafia 1y ago

> It was a privilege Hardly. It was COVID. It forced companies to do the most logical thing they could in a world of high speed internet. Many of them refused to read the writing on the wall and assumed it would return to normal one day. They made no efforts to internally reorient themselves around this new work strategy. > people abused it Other than your anecdote what evidence is there that this is true? Has the economy faltered? Is there any second source for the data which shows _any_ impact _at all_?