6 ms·

"Dumb" home devices work as expected for 25-50 years, and then you replace them. "Smart" home devices work as expected for about a year and then they fail in n

"Dumb" home devices work as expected for 25-50 years, and then you replace them. "Smart" home devices work as expected for about a year and then they fail in new and exciting ways, and then you replace them.

j45 1y ago
Well said. Smarthome tech like this is just trying to make a quick buck at the expense of a lifelong relationship with a customer.
daviddavis 1y ago
This is exactly why I’ve started only buying smart devices that work with Home Assistant and don’t rely on cloud services.
- UnlockedSecrets 1y ago
  What are the best ways of finding such devices? Almost all the time when I look into some product it ends up being connected to some random cloud service with its own login.
  - asdff 1y ago
    It isn't easy, but you just have to do your due diligence and really explore the featuresets available for a given category of product. A shortcut however is checking out the homelab subreddit. People will post about the gear they are using in their stack.
  - Izkata 1y ago
    HomeAssistant supports a bunch of home automation systems, including local-only ones like ZWave and Zigbee*. A search for "zwave thermostat" comes up with a lot of results, though I couldn't say how difficult it might be to configure them (I'm only using simpler devices like switches and sensors). * There are internet-connected controllers and local controllers so you'd also want a local controller. I've used an Aeotec Z-Stick for ZWave devices for around a decade, it plugs into USB, HomeAssistant accesses it directly, and the ZWave network itself is connections between the Z-Stick and the devices without the internet.
    - floating-io 1y ago
      The Honeywell Z-Wave thermostats are trivial to connect and work with via Home Assistant. Source: I own one. :)
      - acidburnNSA 1y ago
        I own two and they are bulletproof with Home Assistant. When away from home I just wireguard in and adjust/monitor as needed.
  - amatecha 1y ago
    One way is to look for devices that have unofficial firmware available, so you can just overwrite the included software for something more under your control. For example, check out Tasmota, "an open source firmware for Espressif ESP8266, ESP32, ESP32-S or ESP32-C3 chipset based devices": https://tasmota.github.io/docs/ https://tasmota.github.io/docs/
- stego-tech 1y ago
  Ditto. Landlord shoved ecobees onto us after their developer program shuttered, and when internet connected they misbehave. Curious to hear what local polling or local push thermostat you settled on with HA support!
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    Not the person you are asking. I'm partial to all Shelly stuff. So far very reliable and the price is ok. They do have a cloud but it is entirely optional.
  - colordrops 1y ago
    Ecobees (at least the model I have) can work without internet and integrate with Home Assistant.
- hamdingers 1y ago
  Ironically the latest Nest thermostats offer fully local control with Home Assistant via Matter.
  - coin 1y ago
    Last I checked you have sign-in to Google before it lets you config via Matter
- sarchertech 1y ago
  Make sure that if you buy such a device it doesn’t do over the air upgrades. I bought a smart baby monitor (miku) that promised no monthly fees. Then they went bankrupt. A new company was formed that bought the assets. They disabled most functionality via forced over the air update then added a fee to enable the previously free functionality.
  - atonse 1y ago
    Isn’t that illegal? like under consumer law maybe?
  - seam_carver 1y ago
    Louis Rossman would love to hear from you. Here's a recent video where he covers the exact same situation as you with another company where the purchasing company disables functionality behind a subscription. And is actively trying to prevent hackers from running stuff locally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66j9dsPhAjE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66j9dsPhAjE
  - shrinks99 1y ago
    And THAT'S why my smart home stuff is on a seperate VLAN that isn't internet connected!
  - dreamcompiler 1y ago
    Nest itself did this too. My gen 1 (pre-Google) Nest did forced OTA updates. Once or twice it bricked itself; fortunately it was still able to receive updates and Nest corrected the problem. Then they couldn't resist fiddling with the UI. Every new update changed the UI such that I had to relearn how to operate it. That was the last straw, so I disconnected it from my wifi and just used it as a standalone thermostat.
paranoidrobot 1y ago
> "Smart Cloud" home devices work as expected for about a year and then they fail in new and exciting ways, and then you replace them. > "Smart Local Control" home devices work as expected until the electronics fail ftfy.
- dreamcompiler 1y ago
  This assumes two things: 1. That you can buy a smart local control device. 2. That the electronics were designed with appropriate thermal management so they don't fry themselves quickly. Smart bulbs are the most notorious offenders here, but the problem is widespread.
- IHLayman 1y ago
  > "Smart Local Control" home devices work as expected until the electronics fail Recently one of my Zigbee-controlled thermostats started pumping cold air constantly. To fix it, all I had to do was open and examine the board; one of the varistors got some battery acid on it when I had an alkaline battery burst in the unit. Because it was a no-name with an actual PCB, I was able to solder a new varistor in place, and it works good as new. So I would say that "Smart Local Control" isn't the problem, but rather the ability to repair the thing. Also, the thermostat was $45 when I purchased it 5 years ago, so it was a good investment IMO. I think that's why everyone is upset about the Nest gen 1 and 2 sunsetting; there should be no reason that these devices should be breaking now (no failing electronics) but they die anyway because the company is too cheap to keep an extra endpoint running.
slg 1y ago
While I agree with the message, I think honesty is important. The Nest gen 3 was released in 2015[1]. People got a 10-14 years out of these devices. Also, that posts says the thermostat will still work locally so the failure state of the "smart" device here is that it became a "dumb" device after a decade+. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Nest#Nest_Learning_Thermostat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Nest#Nest_Learning_Ther...
- j45 1y ago
  Not quite logical. Release years aren’t purchase years. Everyone didn’t have the same purchase year. And, it’s just a thermostat. When they first came out it was a little novel. Not anymore. Temperature is a solved problem and algorithm. There’s no real reason to discontinue them - they do the same thing they always have, connected to the same shared infrastructure. I highly doubt the cost of cloud, tech increased or decreased since then. It feels like a form of forced planned obsolescence. Maybe some growth or product folks not hitting their bonus lol. Gen 1 and Gen 2 were unique also don’t have microphones in them. I know Gen 2 handled microbursting well not sure about other gens. The truth is the cloud is someone else’s computer and the cloud always costs someone else, if not the customer. Maybe nests aren’t being replaced fast enough or new nest purchases aren’t growing like before due to other options. I won’t trust or buy any more Nest devices again or trust the brand. I buy newer Nest devices and cycle them out. Gen 1 and Gen 2 folks were early adopters and they can find more elsewhere. There are lots of other better options. It’s easy to go early adopt the next thing. Home automation has come a long way and those who are trying to earn in the past risk being left in the past. The device will work locally but api is being removed so the mobile app won’t work and neither will any home automation integrations. The least they could do is just let people control it directly. We’ll see if it gets unlocked now.
  - slg 1y ago
    We don't have to be exact or pedantic. Whatever the original purchase date for individual purchases, I guarantee they are closer to a decade ago than a year ago. EDIT: That comment was heavily expanded after I replied. It was originally only about the distinction of purchase date. I won't debate the rest of the comment because as I said at the start, "While I agree with the message...". I just don't think this specific case is a particularly good example of what is being argued and therefore arguing it is probably counterproductive.
add-sub-mul-div 1y ago
> and then they fail in new and exciting ways The first thing I did when I bought my house was remove the Ring camera, but I left the keycode entry for the front door in place. Long story short, a few months later it locked me out of the house and shortly after I replaced it with a regular lock and key. Never again.
- jacquesm 1y ago
  Someone at the Cirius Cybernetics Corporation had a good laugh at you.
  - add-sub-mul-div 1y ago
    Yeah probably the AAA locksmith I had to call as well.
    - jacquesm 1y ago
      Still cheaper than a new door, though usually not by much. I'd hate to have to tackle my front door, I think they stole it from Fort Knox and left the fold behind. That's the one door in this house that I'm never ever going to take off its hinges.
userbinator 1y ago
I have one of these: https://i.redd.it/629z71qmiq0c1.jpg https://i.redd.it/629z71qmiq0c1.jpg It will probably last over a century.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- drfuchs 1y ago
  And when it finally dies and is disposed of, the mercury in the internal (ingenious) mechanism will likely end up in the wild. P.s. They came in colors? I only ever saw them in tan, which virtually everyone had half a century ago.
  - BenjiWiebe 1y ago
    The ad mentions you can easily paint it, so I think it just came in "silver-bronze".
- acidburnNSA 1y ago
  My mom had these. After 25 years they started rapidly cycling the furnace which burned out line 3 ignitors in rapid succession. Now replaced with smarter digital but not networked ones that throttle it a bit more.
  - gooseyman 1y ago
    My mom still has these. In gold. It has outlasted two boilers.
jonas21 1y ago
It's only the networked features that are being discontinued. You can still use the Nest as a "dumb" thermostat. Assuming you wanted a smart thermostat, surely a smart thermostat that reverts to being a dumb thermostat after 10-15 years is better than a dumb thermostat.
- sarchertech 1y ago
  That’s no excuse to disable functionality on perfectly good devices. Imagine if a company disabled your freezer after 10 years and told you “hey a refrigerator and freezer that reverts to a refrigerator after 10 years is better than a refrigerator!”
  - jonas21 1y ago
    It's funny you should mention that because years ago, I did own a mini-fridge with a freezer section, and after a few years the freezer stopped working. I was still glad to have had it while it lasted.
    - sarchertech 1y ago
      Sure. I imagine you’d be really annoyed if you found out the reason it stopped working was because the company installed a kill switch on a 10 year timer.
SoftTalker 1y ago
My mercury bulb thermostat from 1966 still works.
- BuckRogers 1y ago
  So do those nest thermostats. They just reverted back to being a thermostat from 1966.

j45 1y ago

Well said. Smarthome tech like this is just trying to make a quick buck at the expense of a lifelong relationship with a customer.

daviddavis 1y ago

This is exactly why I’ve started only buying smart devices that work with Home Assistant and don’t rely on cloud services.

UnlockedSecrets 1y ago
What are the best ways of finding such devices? Almost all the time when I look into some product it ends up being connected to some random cloud service with its own login.
- asdff 1y ago
  It isn't easy, but you just have to do your due diligence and really explore the featuresets available for a given category of product. A shortcut however is checking out the homelab subreddit. People will post about the gear they are using in their stack.
- Izkata 1y ago
  HomeAssistant supports a bunch of home automation systems, including local-only ones like ZWave and Zigbee*. A search for "zwave thermostat" comes up with a lot of results, though I couldn't say how difficult it might be to configure them (I'm only using simpler devices like switches and sensors). * There are internet-connected controllers and local controllers so you'd also want a local controller. I've used an Aeotec Z-Stick for ZWave devices for around a decade, it plugs into USB, HomeAssistant accesses it directly, and the ZWave network itself is connections between the Z-Stick and the devices without the internet.
  - floating-io 1y ago
    The Honeywell Z-Wave thermostats are trivial to connect and work with via Home Assistant. Source: I own one. :)
    - acidburnNSA 1y ago
      I own two and they are bulletproof with Home Assistant. When away from home I just wireguard in and adjust/monitor as needed.
- amatecha 1y ago
  One way is to look for devices that have unofficial firmware available, so you can just overwrite the included software for something more under your control. For example, check out Tasmota, "an open source firmware for Espressif ESP8266, ESP32, ESP32-S or ESP32-C3 chipset based devices": https://tasmota.github.io/docs/ https://tasmota.github.io/docs/
stego-tech 1y ago
Ditto. Landlord shoved ecobees onto us after their developer program shuttered, and when internet connected they misbehave. Curious to hear what local polling or local push thermostat you settled on with HA support!
- jacquesm 1y ago
  Not the person you are asking. I'm partial to all Shelly stuff. So far very reliable and the price is ok. They do have a cloud but it is entirely optional.
- colordrops 1y ago
  Ecobees (at least the model I have) can work without internet and integrate with Home Assistant.
hamdingers 1y ago
Ironically the latest Nest thermostats offer fully local control with Home Assistant via Matter.
- coin 1y ago
  Last I checked you have sign-in to Google before it lets you config via Matter
sarchertech 1y ago
Make sure that if you buy such a device it doesn’t do over the air upgrades. I bought a smart baby monitor (miku) that promised no monthly fees. Then they went bankrupt. A new company was formed that bought the assets. They disabled most functionality via forced over the air update then added a fee to enable the previously free functionality.
- atonse 1y ago
  Isn’t that illegal? like under consumer law maybe?
- seam_carver 1y ago
  Louis Rossman would love to hear from you. Here's a recent video where he covers the exact same situation as you with another company where the purchasing company disables functionality behind a subscription. And is actively trying to prevent hackers from running stuff locally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66j9dsPhAjE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66j9dsPhAjE
- shrinks99 1y ago
  And THAT'S why my smart home stuff is on a seperate VLAN that isn't internet connected!
- dreamcompiler 1y ago
  Nest itself did this too. My gen 1 (pre-Google) Nest did forced OTA updates. Once or twice it bricked itself; fortunately it was still able to receive updates and Nest corrected the problem. Then they couldn't resist fiddling with the UI. Every new update changed the UI such that I had to relearn how to operate it. That was the last straw, so I disconnected it from my wifi and just used it as a standalone thermostat.

paranoidrobot 1y ago

> "Smart Cloud" home devices work as expected for about a year and then they fail in new and exciting ways, and then you replace them. > "Smart Local Control" home devices work as expected until the electronics fail ftfy.

dreamcompiler 1y ago
This assumes two things: 1. That you can buy a smart local control device. 2. That the electronics were designed with appropriate thermal management so they don't fry themselves quickly. Smart bulbs are the most notorious offenders here, but the problem is widespread.
IHLayman 1y ago
> "Smart Local Control" home devices work as expected until the electronics fail Recently one of my Zigbee-controlled thermostats started pumping cold air constantly. To fix it, all I had to do was open and examine the board; one of the varistors got some battery acid on it when I had an alkaline battery burst in the unit. Because it was a no-name with an actual PCB, I was able to solder a new varistor in place, and it works good as new. So I would say that "Smart Local Control" isn't the problem, but rather the ability to repair the thing. Also, the thermostat was $45 when I purchased it 5 years ago, so it was a good investment IMO. I think that's why everyone is upset about the Nest gen 1 and 2 sunsetting; there should be no reason that these devices should be breaking now (no failing electronics) but they die anyway because the company is too cheap to keep an extra endpoint running.

slg 1y ago

While I agree with the message, I think honesty is important. The Nest gen 3 was released in 2015[1]. People got a 10-14 years out of these devices. Also, that posts says the thermostat will still work locally so the failure state of the "smart" device here is that it became a "dumb" device after a decade+. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Nest#Nest_Learning_Thermostat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Nest#Nest_Learning_Ther...

j45 1y ago
Not quite logical. Release years aren’t purchase years. Everyone didn’t have the same purchase year. And, it’s just a thermostat. When they first came out it was a little novel. Not anymore. Temperature is a solved problem and algorithm. There’s no real reason to discontinue them - they do the same thing they always have, connected to the same shared infrastructure. I highly doubt the cost of cloud, tech increased or decreased since then. It feels like a form of forced planned obsolescence. Maybe some growth or product folks not hitting their bonus lol. Gen 1 and Gen 2 were unique also don’t have microphones in them. I know Gen 2 handled microbursting well not sure about other gens. The truth is the cloud is someone else’s computer and the cloud always costs someone else, if not the customer. Maybe nests aren’t being replaced fast enough or new nest purchases aren’t growing like before due to other options. I won’t trust or buy any more Nest devices again or trust the brand. I buy newer Nest devices and cycle them out. Gen 1 and Gen 2 folks were early adopters and they can find more elsewhere. There are lots of other better options. It’s easy to go early adopt the next thing. Home automation has come a long way and those who are trying to earn in the past risk being left in the past. The device will work locally but api is being removed so the mobile app won’t work and neither will any home automation integrations. The least they could do is just let people control it directly. We’ll see if it gets unlocked now.
- slg 1y ago
  We don't have to be exact or pedantic. Whatever the original purchase date for individual purchases, I guarantee they are closer to a decade ago than a year ago. EDIT: That comment was heavily expanded after I replied. It was originally only about the distinction of purchase date. I won't debate the rest of the comment because as I said at the start, "While I agree with the message...". I just don't think this specific case is a particularly good example of what is being argued and therefore arguing it is probably counterproductive.

add-sub-mul-div 1y ago

> and then they fail in new and exciting ways The first thing I did when I bought my house was remove the Ring camera, but I left the keycode entry for the front door in place. Long story short, a few months later it locked me out of the house and shortly after I replaced it with a regular lock and key. Never again.

jacquesm 1y ago
Someone at the Cirius Cybernetics Corporation had a good laugh at you.
- add-sub-mul-div 1y ago
  Yeah probably the AAA locksmith I had to call as well.
  - jacquesm 1y ago
    Still cheaper than a new door, though usually not by much. I'd hate to have to tackle my front door, I think they stole it from Fort Knox and left the fold behind. That's the one door in this house that I'm never ever going to take off its hinges.

userbinator 1y ago

I have one of these: https://i.redd.it/629z71qmiq0c1.jpg https://i.redd.it/629z71qmiq0c1.jpg It will probably last over a century.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
drfuchs 1y ago
And when it finally dies and is disposed of, the mercury in the internal (ingenious) mechanism will likely end up in the wild. P.s. They came in colors? I only ever saw them in tan, which virtually everyone had half a century ago.
- BenjiWiebe 1y ago
  The ad mentions you can easily paint it, so I think it just came in "silver-bronze".
acidburnNSA 1y ago
My mom had these. After 25 years they started rapidly cycling the furnace which burned out line 3 ignitors in rapid succession. Now replaced with smarter digital but not networked ones that throttle it a bit more.
- gooseyman 1y ago
  My mom still has these. In gold. It has outlasted two boilers.

jonas21 1y ago

It's only the networked features that are being discontinued. You can still use the Nest as a "dumb" thermostat. Assuming you wanted a smart thermostat, surely a smart thermostat that reverts to being a dumb thermostat after 10-15 years is better than a dumb thermostat.

sarchertech 1y ago
That’s no excuse to disable functionality on perfectly good devices. Imagine if a company disabled your freezer after 10 years and told you “hey a refrigerator and freezer that reverts to a refrigerator after 10 years is better than a refrigerator!”
- jonas21 1y ago
  It's funny you should mention that because years ago, I did own a mini-fridge with a freezer section, and after a few years the freezer stopped working. I was still glad to have had it while it lasted.
  - sarchertech 1y ago
    Sure. I imagine you’d be really annoyed if you found out the reason it stopped working was because the company installed a kill switch on a 10 year timer.

SoftTalker 1y ago

My mercury bulb thermostat from 1966 still works.

BuckRogers 1y ago
So do those nest thermostats. They just reverted back to being a thermostat from 1966.