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Unfortunately, this kind of story will continue to be a popular one in newspapers and magazines, garnering lots of clicks. It feeds into the "everything is diff

Unfortunately, this kind of story will continue to be a popular one in newspapers and magazines, garnering lots of clicks. It feeds into the "everything is different now" sort of desperate helplessness people seem primed to adopt with respect to AI sometimes. Obviously the answer to testing and grading is to do it in the classroom. If a computer is required, it can't connect to the internet. Caught with a cellphone, you fail the test. Caught twice you fail the class. The non-story beatings will continue until morale and common sense improve.

benreesman 1y ago
Right a broader theme about AI safety and AI politics and all of it: we have choices as a society, so if our choices are good and our will to see those choices respected are intact, then the scope for harm is pretty manageable. When the one that can make Captain Trips bioweapon in a garage comes out, I'll start blaming the technology, at the moment, its the choices made by humans.
BinaryPie 1y ago
All of our tests including computer science exams were written on paper with a pencil. We can just go back to that.
defen 1y ago
Agreed. What we're actually witnessing is the end of mass-produced education.
godelski 1y ago
Are you suggesting kids spend longer times in school or suggesting kids spend less time on education?
- djoldman 1y ago
  Chicago Public Schools has 176 days of school in the school year. That's 88 days per semester. Take 8 of those and use them to assess student progress and determine grades in class. That leaves 90% of the school year for learning in class.
- ofjcihen 1y ago
  I’m not sure where the OP said that. Can you show us?
  - godelski 1y ago
    Sure. Current paradigm: Education time = time at school + time doing assignments OP said: > Obviously the answer to testing and grading is to do it in the classroom. So my question is, when is homework done? If it is being done at school, then our two options are to extend hours spent at school or give up time normally spent lecturing. I guess there's the alternative of getting rid of homework and only evaluating students on exams, but considering how terrible of an idea this is, I'm assumed that's not what's being suggested. Now I'll be fair, I interpreted "testing and grading" as including homework. Why? Well... 1) exams are already performed (primarily) in the classroom. Everyone is already aware of how supervised settings reduce (but not eliminates) cheating. I'm assuming the OP isn't so disconnected that they are aware of this. I'm assuming they also went to school and had a fairly typical education. I'm also assuming that the OP isn't making the wild assumption that the majority of school teachers and news reporters aren't comatose, so capable of understanding this rather obvious solution. 2) I assumed the OP RTFA The entire problem that's constantly talked about, including THE ARTICLE, is HOMEWORK. No one is talking about 1) for the aforementioned reasons. *Everyone is talking about homework.* It has been the conversation the entire time. So I restate, if you are evaluating /homework/ in class, then what are we giving up? It really doesn't take a genius to figure out something has to give, right?
    - djoldman 1y ago
      My take is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45141954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45141954
    - ofjcihen 1y ago
      I think your assumption is where this falls apart. To be clear, your assumption about where time is spent and how there can only be 2 outcomes.
      - 1y ago
- thedevilslawyer 1y ago
  Neither? it's quite clear they're suggesting improving assessments. This will lead to upstream learning not being gamed.
  - godelski 1y ago
    So the option is to what, stop handing out homework? That would result in less education time. To clarify, I mean education time, not classroom time.
    - djoldman 1y ago
      Continue to assign homework. Tie the homework to in class assessment such that if a student can do well on homework, without AI assistance, they are expected to do well on tests conducted in class, again without AI assistance. Set homework grades to be a relatively small percentage of the final grade. With the above framework, a student is incentivized to complete homework. If they cheat themselves and use AI, they'll do badly on the tests and badly in the class overall. Tell the students about the above rationale. Tell them that they're not to use AI for homework, that you can't stop them from using AI, but that by using AI, all they get is a perfect score on homework and probably a bad overall grade.
      - godelski 1y ago
        I think this is easier said than done. It pretty much sounds like you're suggesting there are pop-quizes. We've seen that style of teaching before. IME it isn't as effective. Though I'm quite suspect that a big part of that is simply coordination with other classes. All it takes is one teacher who thinks their class is the most important and not give enough wiggle room so that there is room for triage and expected life events. Just because there's theoretically enough time does not mean there is enough time. Think of it like lifeboats. Do you want enough lifeboats so that each person has a spot or do you want extra lifeboats so that in case one gets destroyed or in case a person is unable to make it to the other lifeboat that they will still survive? Over optimization ignores the noise inherent to reality.
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  If testing is taking up so much time it can't fit inside schools then my god definitely have them spend less time on education. In high school, with so many hours of classes per day, homework should be a small part of the day. There's enough time to get the important parts into the actual classroom. If homework is a very large amount of time, then there should be less homework.
b-karl 1y ago
Completely agree. I think this was kind of solved going to university where most of the math courses did not allow calculators and similar tools or books present and the tests were designed to not require these and instead focused on theory and concepts. I think isolating test environments is one thing and then you can in addition have classes or assignments where AI and other tools are available and acceptable to use.
ethbr1 1y ago
If substantially changing school device and testing policies is required by new technology, doesn't that mean everything is different now?
- chrisco255 1y ago
  As far as I can remember phones were not allowed in class and testing was generally done on paper. College was a lot more lax about this stuff than K-12 was. But colleges could and should proctor their exams more strictly.
  - ethbr1 1y ago
    No phones in class, at scale and enforced, feels like a last 5 years thing in K-12. And the trend was very much towards increased digital testing, pre-LLM. This is pivoting back to paper-based, but it's going to be as messy and slow of a transition as the no-mobile-device one was. Especially given how much money there is in "AI". And hamfistedly-handed, will likely leave another generation fucked over with regards to basic education (like the predatory social+mobile adoption before regulation did previously).
    - victorbjorklund 1y ago
      I wasnt allowed to use a phone during exams back in 2006.
    - Telemakhos 1y ago
      "No phones" was the rule back in the 2000s, when phones were flip phones or pagers for drug deals. Then helicopter parents demanded to be able to contact their children at any time, including during classes, so phones were allowed. There was the added bonus of "What if there's a shooting? I need to be able to call my kid during a shooting!" Now, phones are not allowed again. The takeaway is that phones should never have been allowed in school. They distract from school, and kids need to learn to focus on tasks without being distracted.
      - 1y ago
AppleBananaPie 1y ago
I'm surprised the answer of doing all exercises (including essay writing) in class is apparently not obvious. High school me was a moron and should not be trusted to do the real work and people who know better should force him to practice the skills lol Once he's grown and has a job he will one day realize and be thankful for the teachers that forced him to do the work. Obviously not true for all students but I don't think it harms anyone inverting it but please point out if I'm wrong!
- SoftTalker 1y ago
  Some assignments are bigger than can be done in one class period. And class time is for lecture; there isn't a lot of time for students to work problems on their own. So we're just dealing with what (some) students have always done: get someone else to write the report or do the math homework. Or have parents pay a tutor to help. Or use Cliff's Notes instead of reading the book. But now it's trivially easy and free. There are no obstacles to cheating other than knowing it's wrong and self-defeating, and those are things that young people don't really have a well-developed sense about.
  - skybrian 1y ago
    Some people promote a “flipped classroom” where you’re supposed to watch video lectures on your own and classroom time is used to discuss them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom
    - kmote00 1y ago
      That's funny that I just had that idea around the same time that you must have been typing your answer. (See my adjacent answer). Actually thought it was probably a crazy idea and would get quickly downvoted. Quite surprised that there's already a Wikipedia article about it. Cool.
  - kmote00 1y ago
    What about this idea: flip the script. Students must learn the subject OUTside of class: teacher provides video lectures for those that want to use them, but any source is open game -- YouTube, AI, you name it. Then class time is reserved exclusively for doing the assignments. No phones or computers allowed.
phoenixhaber 1y ago
I see your blue book exam and number two pencil and I reraise you a micro earbud smart glasses and wifi connection.
- libraryofbabel 1y ago
  Raise you a Faraday Cage.
  - kingstnap 1y ago
    Cheat on the test by bringing the answers memorized and ready to use in your brain!
trenchpilgrim 1y ago
> Caught with a cellphone, you fail the test. Caught twice you fail the class. One of my coworker's has their kids in a school where if you are caught with a cellphone, on the first offense you are suspended. Apparently it's working well.
- foobarian 1y ago
  It's all fun and games until it's a public school that implements the mandatory schooling law and so can't really kick out students unless they murder someone.
  - jedberg 1y ago
    That's why states are implementing no-cell-phone laws. To give the educators cover for harsh consequences. They are basically making using a cell phone in school the same as assaulting someone, so that they can remove the student for repeat offenses.
malloryerik 1y ago
Instead of extending hours in classrooms, which might feel like torture, what about no-tech libraries for individual work like homework? Or with a coffeeshop vibe. I'd personally say four hours a day but I'm guessing two might be what many found reasonable. If you finished your work early you could read what you'd like. Town and city libraries could be enlisted for this along with the school libraries, which might need to be expanded to fit all of these kids. Add sports and you get a serious full day for kids, not the kind of half day they have now in the U.S. That additionally lightens the load on working parents.
marcus_holmes 1y ago
From The New York Times 1996, the internet is ruining education: https://archive.is/qTAXR https://archive.is/qTAXR It's an easy win for a journalist.
- aprilthird2021 1y ago
  I mean, it kind of did... Look at our political leaders now vs in the 1990s as an example of how poorly educated we are now
  - marcus_holmes 1y ago
    that was television that destroyed our political leaders ... https://www.historynewsnetwork.org/article/how-early-warnings-about-the-effect-of-television- https://www.historynewsnetwork.org/article/how-early-warning...
  - lordhumphrey 1y ago
    It absolutely did. 100% literacy, but all we read is garbage, and all we write is short and shallow. 100% computer literacy too, if that term means making accounts, clicking on links, scrolling up and down, taking videos of things, and commenting. The internet has ended up being a massive drain on people's energy, and driven communities apart. Of course, there are exceptions here and there amongst the better educated classes, people who manage to shield themselves from the worst transgressions of the behemoths running the tech infrastructure that dominates people's lives. And, of course, these exalted internet users then vehemently argue that the internet is great, and people just aren't using it right, like them. And round and round the thing goes, getting worse and worse for most people.
conartist6 1y ago
And then the same policy at your company. If kids have to learn not to cheat on homework, why the heck don't adults? Is learning over by the time you have a job?

benreesman 1y ago

Right a broader theme about AI safety and AI politics and all of it: we have choices as a society, so if our choices are good and our will to see those choices respected are intact, then the scope for harm is pretty manageable. When the one that can make Captain Trips bioweapon in a garage comes out, I'll start blaming the technology, at the moment, its the choices made by humans.

BinaryPie 1y ago

All of our tests including computer science exams were written on paper with a pencil. We can just go back to that.

defen 1y ago

Agreed. What we're actually witnessing is the end of mass-produced education.

godelski 1y ago

Are you suggesting kids spend longer times in school or suggesting kids spend less time on education?

djoldman 1y ago
Chicago Public Schools has 176 days of school in the school year. That's 88 days per semester. Take 8 of those and use them to assess student progress and determine grades in class. That leaves 90% of the school year for learning in class.
ofjcihen 1y ago
I’m not sure where the OP said that. Can you show us?
- godelski 1y ago
  Sure. Current paradigm: Education time = time at school + time doing assignments OP said: > Obviously the answer to testing and grading is to do it in the classroom. So my question is, when is homework done? If it is being done at school, then our two options are to extend hours spent at school or give up time normally spent lecturing. I guess there's the alternative of getting rid of homework and only evaluating students on exams, but considering how terrible of an idea this is, I'm assumed that's not what's being suggested. Now I'll be fair, I interpreted "testing and grading" as including homework. Why? Well... 1) exams are already performed (primarily) in the classroom. Everyone is already aware of how supervised settings reduce (but not eliminates) cheating. I'm assuming the OP isn't so disconnected that they are aware of this. I'm assuming they also went to school and had a fairly typical education. I'm also assuming that the OP isn't making the wild assumption that the majority of school teachers and news reporters aren't comatose, so capable of understanding this rather obvious solution. 2) I assumed the OP RTFA The entire problem that's constantly talked about, including THE ARTICLE, is HOMEWORK. No one is talking about 1) for the aforementioned reasons. *Everyone is talking about homework.* It has been the conversation the entire time. So I restate, if you are evaluating /homework/ in class, then what are we giving up? It really doesn't take a genius to figure out something has to give, right?
  - djoldman 1y ago
    My take is here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45141954 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45141954
  - ofjcihen 1y ago
    I think your assumption is where this falls apart. To be clear, your assumption about where time is spent and how there can only be 2 outcomes.
    - 1y ago
thedevilslawyer 1y ago
Neither? it's quite clear they're suggesting improving assessments. This will lead to upstream learning not being gamed.
- godelski 1y ago
  So the option is to what, stop handing out homework? That would result in less education time. To clarify, I mean education time, not classroom time.
  - djoldman 1y ago
    Continue to assign homework. Tie the homework to in class assessment such that if a student can do well on homework, without AI assistance, they are expected to do well on tests conducted in class, again without AI assistance. Set homework grades to be a relatively small percentage of the final grade. With the above framework, a student is incentivized to complete homework. If they cheat themselves and use AI, they'll do badly on the tests and badly in the class overall. Tell the students about the above rationale. Tell them that they're not to use AI for homework, that you can't stop them from using AI, but that by using AI, all they get is a perfect score on homework and probably a bad overall grade.
    - godelski 1y ago
      I think this is easier said than done. It pretty much sounds like you're suggesting there are pop-quizes. We've seen that style of teaching before. IME it isn't as effective. Though I'm quite suspect that a big part of that is simply coordination with other classes. All it takes is one teacher who thinks their class is the most important and not give enough wiggle room so that there is room for triage and expected life events. Just because there's theoretically enough time does not mean there is enough time. Think of it like lifeboats. Do you want enough lifeboats so that each person has a spot or do you want extra lifeboats so that in case one gets destroyed or in case a person is unable to make it to the other lifeboat that they will still survive? Over optimization ignores the noise inherent to reality.
Dylan16807 1y ago
If testing is taking up so much time it can't fit inside schools then my god definitely have them spend less time on education. In high school, with so many hours of classes per day, homework should be a small part of the day. There's enough time to get the important parts into the actual classroom. If homework is a very large amount of time, then there should be less homework.

b-karl 1y ago

Completely agree. I think this was kind of solved going to university where most of the math courses did not allow calculators and similar tools or books present and the tests were designed to not require these and instead focused on theory and concepts. I think isolating test environments is one thing and then you can in addition have classes or assignments where AI and other tools are available and acceptable to use.

ethbr1 1y ago

If substantially changing school device and testing policies is required by new technology, doesn't that mean everything is different now?

chrisco255 1y ago
As far as I can remember phones were not allowed in class and testing was generally done on paper. College was a lot more lax about this stuff than K-12 was. But colleges could and should proctor their exams more strictly.
- ethbr1 1y ago
  No phones in class, at scale and enforced, feels like a last 5 years thing in K-12. And the trend was very much towards increased digital testing, pre-LLM. This is pivoting back to paper-based, but it's going to be as messy and slow of a transition as the no-mobile-device one was. Especially given how much money there is in "AI". And hamfistedly-handed, will likely leave another generation fucked over with regards to basic education (like the predatory social+mobile adoption before regulation did previously).
  - victorbjorklund 1y ago
    I wasnt allowed to use a phone during exams back in 2006.
  - Telemakhos 1y ago
    "No phones" was the rule back in the 2000s, when phones were flip phones or pagers for drug deals. Then helicopter parents demanded to be able to contact their children at any time, including during classes, so phones were allowed. There was the added bonus of "What if there's a shooting? I need to be able to call my kid during a shooting!" Now, phones are not allowed again. The takeaway is that phones should never have been allowed in school. They distract from school, and kids need to learn to focus on tasks without being distracted.
    - 1y ago

AppleBananaPie 1y ago

I'm surprised the answer of doing all exercises (including essay writing) in class is apparently not obvious. High school me was a moron and should not be trusted to do the real work and people who know better should force him to practice the skills lol Once he's grown and has a job he will one day realize and be thankful for the teachers that forced him to do the work. Obviously not true for all students but I don't think it harms anyone inverting it but please point out if I'm wrong!

SoftTalker 1y ago
Some assignments are bigger than can be done in one class period. And class time is for lecture; there isn't a lot of time for students to work problems on their own. So we're just dealing with what (some) students have always done: get someone else to write the report or do the math homework. Or have parents pay a tutor to help. Or use Cliff's Notes instead of reading the book. But now it's trivially easy and free. There are no obstacles to cheating other than knowing it's wrong and self-defeating, and those are things that young people don't really have a well-developed sense about.
- skybrian 1y ago
  Some people promote a “flipped classroom” where you’re supposed to watch video lectures on your own and classroom time is used to discuss them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flipped_classroom
  - kmote00 1y ago
    That's funny that I just had that idea around the same time that you must have been typing your answer. (See my adjacent answer). Actually thought it was probably a crazy idea and would get quickly downvoted. Quite surprised that there's already a Wikipedia article about it. Cool.
- kmote00 1y ago
  What about this idea: flip the script. Students must learn the subject OUTside of class: teacher provides video lectures for those that want to use them, but any source is open game -- YouTube, AI, you name it. Then class time is reserved exclusively for doing the assignments. No phones or computers allowed.

phoenixhaber 1y ago

I see your blue book exam and number two pencil and I reraise you a micro earbud smart glasses and wifi connection.

libraryofbabel 1y ago
Raise you a Faraday Cage.
- kingstnap 1y ago
  Cheat on the test by bringing the answers memorized and ready to use in your brain!

trenchpilgrim 1y ago

> Caught with a cellphone, you fail the test. Caught twice you fail the class. One of my coworker's has their kids in a school where if you are caught with a cellphone, on the first offense you are suspended. Apparently it's working well.

foobarian 1y ago
It's all fun and games until it's a public school that implements the mandatory schooling law and so can't really kick out students unless they murder someone.
- jedberg 1y ago
  That's why states are implementing no-cell-phone laws. To give the educators cover for harsh consequences. They are basically making using a cell phone in school the same as assaulting someone, so that they can remove the student for repeat offenses.

malloryerik 1y ago

Instead of extending hours in classrooms, which might feel like torture, what about no-tech libraries for individual work like homework? Or with a coffeeshop vibe. I'd personally say four hours a day but I'm guessing two might be what many found reasonable. If you finished your work early you could read what you'd like. Town and city libraries could be enlisted for this along with the school libraries, which might need to be expanded to fit all of these kids. Add sports and you get a serious full day for kids, not the kind of half day they have now in the U.S. That additionally lightens the load on working parents.

marcus_holmes 1y ago

From The New York Times 1996, the internet is ruining education: https://archive.is/qTAXR https://archive.is/qTAXR It's an easy win for a journalist.

aprilthird2021 1y ago
I mean, it kind of did... Look at our political leaders now vs in the 1990s as an example of how poorly educated we are now
- marcus_holmes 1y ago
  that was television that destroyed our political leaders ... https://www.historynewsnetwork.org/article/how-early-warnings-about-the-effect-of-television- https://www.historynewsnetwork.org/article/how-early-warning...
- lordhumphrey 1y ago
  It absolutely did. 100% literacy, but all we read is garbage, and all we write is short and shallow. 100% computer literacy too, if that term means making accounts, clicking on links, scrolling up and down, taking videos of things, and commenting. The internet has ended up being a massive drain on people's energy, and driven communities apart. Of course, there are exceptions here and there amongst the better educated classes, people who manage to shield themselves from the worst transgressions of the behemoths running the tech infrastructure that dominates people's lives. And, of course, these exalted internet users then vehemently argue that the internet is great, and people just aren't using it right, like them. And round and round the thing goes, getting worse and worse for most people.

conartist6 1y ago

And then the same policy at your company. If kids have to learn not to cheat on homework, why the heck don't adults? Is learning over by the time you have a job?