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I stand by my statement! Compare the length of the C standard to JS / ECMAScript, or C++! :) Maaaaybe I'm hiding a tradeoff around complexity vs built-in feat

I stand by my statement! Compare the length of the C standard to JS / ECMAScript, or C++! :) Maaaaybe I'm hiding a tradeoff around complexity vs built-in features, but volunteers can work that out themselves later on. You honestly don't need much knowledge of C to get started in some areas. The ML GUI is easy to modify if you stay within the lines. Other areas, e.g., porting a complex feature to a new camera, are much harder. But that's the life of a reverse engineer.

Etheryte 1y ago
Conversely, the terseness of the C standard also means there's many more footguns and undefined behaviors. There are many things C is, but being easy to pick up is not one of them. I loved C all the way up until I graduated uni, but it would be a very hard sell to get me to pick it for a project these days. To me, working with C is akin to working with assembly, you just feel that you're doing real programming, but realistically there's better options for most scenarios these days.
- ptero 1y ago
  Undefined behaviors -- yes. But being able to trigger undefined behavior is not a huge foot gun by itself. Starting with good code examples means you are much less likely to trigger it. Having a good, logical description of supported features, with a warning that if you do unsupported stuff things may break, is much more important than trying to define every possible action in a predictable way. The latter approach often leads to explosion of spec volume and gives way more opportunities for writing bad code: predictable in execution, but instead with problems in design and logic which are harder to understand, maintain and fix. My 2c.
- names_r_hard 1y ago
  I agree with some of what you're saying; some of the well known risks of working in C are because it's a small standard. But much of the undefined behaviour was deliberately made that way to support the hardware of the time - it's hard to be cross-platform on different architectures as a low-level language. C genuinely is easy to pick up. It is harder to master. And you're right, for many domains, there are better options now, so it may not be worth while mastering it. Because it's an old language, what it lacks in built-in safety features, is provided by decades of very good surrounding tooling. You do of course need to learn that tooling, and choose to use it! In the context of Magic Lantern, C is the natural fit. We are working with very tight memory limitations, due to the OS. We support single core 200Mhz targets (ARMv5, no out-of-order or other fancy tricks). We don't include C stdlib, a small test binary can be < 1kB. Normal builds are around 400kB (this includes a full GUI, debug capabilities, all strings and assets, etc). Canon code is probably mostly C, some C++. We have to call their code directly (casting reverse engineered addresses to function pointers, basically). We don't know what safety guarantees their code makes, or what the API is. Most of our work is interacting with OS or hardware. So we wouldn't gain much by using a safe language for our half.
  - chownie 1y ago
    > C genuinely is easy to pick up. I feel like this is a bit of an https://xkcd.com/2501/ https://xkcd.com/2501/ situation. C is considered easy to pick up for the average user posting HN comments because we have the benefit of years -- the average comp sci student, who has been exposed to Javascript and Python, who might not know what "pass by reference" even means... I'm not sure they're going to be considering C easy.
    - names_r_hard 1y ago
      I've taught several different languages to both 1st year uni students, and new joiners to a technical company, where they had no programming background. Honestly, C seems to be one of the easier languages to teach the basics of. It's certainly easier than Java or C++, which have many more concepts. C has some concepts that confuse the hell out of beginners, and it will let you shoot yourself in the foot very thoroughly with them (much more than say, Java). But you don't tend to encounter them till later on. I have never said getting good at C is easy. Just that it's easy to pick up.
      - wkjagt 1y ago
        C made a lot more sense to me after having done assembly (6502 in my case, but it probably doesn't matter). Things like passing a reference suddenly just made sense.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
      - F3nd0 1y ago
        I agree. For me as a beginner, C was relatively easy to learn the basics of. Sure, I never went on to get familiar with all the details and become proficient in it, but the basic concepts really aren’t that hard to understand. There’s just not too much you need to wrap your head around.
    - jibal 1y ago
      Everything is passed by reference in Python. Everything is passed by value in C.
BiteCode_dev 1y ago
I stand by my statement! Compare the number of strings a violin has to the keys on a piano! :)
- chrisweekly 1y ago
  I know it's all at least semi- tongue-in-cheek, but IRL a piano's discrete, sequential keys are what make it almost inarguably the easiest instrument to learn.
  - IshKebab 1y ago
    That's exactly his point. Languages aren't easier to learn simply because their specification is short, any more than instruments are easier to play because they have fewer strings.
    - jibal 1y ago
      The analogy is completely invalid. Languages with small specifications are easier to learn. It's sad that the dev, who has done great work, has to spend time defending the C language from critters living under a bridge when it's a fixed element that isn't going to change.
      - chrisweekly 1y ago
        Accusing people who disagree w/ you of being trolls doesn't bolster your argument.
        jibal 1y ago
        Speaking of weak arguments: that wasn't the basis of the accusation.
      - thijson 1y ago
        People don't argue with a carpenter over what tools were used to build a piece of furniture. It feels like a religious debate.

Etheryte 1y ago

Conversely, the terseness of the C standard also means there's many more footguns and undefined behaviors. There are many things C is, but being easy to pick up is not one of them. I loved C all the way up until I graduated uni, but it would be a very hard sell to get me to pick it for a project these days. To me, working with C is akin to working with assembly, you just feel that you're doing real programming, but realistically there's better options for most scenarios these days.

ptero 1y ago
Undefined behaviors -- yes. But being able to trigger undefined behavior is not a huge foot gun by itself. Starting with good code examples means you are much less likely to trigger it. Having a good, logical description of supported features, with a warning that if you do unsupported stuff things may break, is much more important than trying to define every possible action in a predictable way. The latter approach often leads to explosion of spec volume and gives way more opportunities for writing bad code: predictable in execution, but instead with problems in design and logic which are harder to understand, maintain and fix. My 2c.
names_r_hard 1y ago
I agree with some of what you're saying; some of the well known risks of working in C are because it's a small standard. But much of the undefined behaviour was deliberately made that way to support the hardware of the time - it's hard to be cross-platform on different architectures as a low-level language. C genuinely is easy to pick up. It is harder to master. And you're right, for many domains, there are better options now, so it may not be worth while mastering it. Because it's an old language, what it lacks in built-in safety features, is provided by decades of very good surrounding tooling. You do of course need to learn that tooling, and choose to use it! In the context of Magic Lantern, C is the natural fit. We are working with very tight memory limitations, due to the OS. We support single core 200Mhz targets (ARMv5, no out-of-order or other fancy tricks). We don't include C stdlib, a small test binary can be < 1kB. Normal builds are around 400kB (this includes a full GUI, debug capabilities, all strings and assets, etc). Canon code is probably mostly C, some C++. We have to call their code directly (casting reverse engineered addresses to function pointers, basically). We don't know what safety guarantees their code makes, or what the API is. Most of our work is interacting with OS or hardware. So we wouldn't gain much by using a safe language for our half.
- chownie 1y ago
  > C genuinely is easy to pick up. I feel like this is a bit of an https://xkcd.com/2501/ https://xkcd.com/2501/ situation. C is considered easy to pick up for the average user posting HN comments because we have the benefit of years -- the average comp sci student, who has been exposed to Javascript and Python, who might not know what "pass by reference" even means... I'm not sure they're going to be considering C easy.
  - names_r_hard 1y ago
    I've taught several different languages to both 1st year uni students, and new joiners to a technical company, where they had no programming background. Honestly, C seems to be one of the easier languages to teach the basics of. It's certainly easier than Java or C++, which have many more concepts. C has some concepts that confuse the hell out of beginners, and it will let you shoot yourself in the foot very thoroughly with them (much more than say, Java). But you don't tend to encounter them till later on. I have never said getting good at C is easy. Just that it's easy to pick up.
    - wkjagt 1y ago
      C made a lot more sense to me after having done assembly (6502 in my case, but it probably doesn't matter). Things like passing a reference suddenly just made sense.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
    - F3nd0 1y ago
      I agree. For me as a beginner, C was relatively easy to learn the basics of. Sure, I never went on to get familiar with all the details and become proficient in it, but the basic concepts really aren’t that hard to understand. There’s just not too much you need to wrap your head around.
  - jibal 1y ago
    Everything is passed by reference in Python. Everything is passed by value in C.

BiteCode_dev 1y ago

I stand by my statement! Compare the number of strings a violin has to the keys on a piano! :)

chrisweekly 1y ago
I know it's all at least semi- tongue-in-cheek, but IRL a piano's discrete, sequential keys are what make it almost inarguably the easiest instrument to learn.
- IshKebab 1y ago
  That's exactly his point. Languages aren't easier to learn simply because their specification is short, any more than instruments are easier to play because they have fewer strings.
  - jibal 1y ago
    The analogy is completely invalid. Languages with small specifications are easier to learn. It's sad that the dev, who has done great work, has to spend time defending the C language from critters living under a bridge when it's a fixed element that isn't going to change.
    - chrisweekly 1y ago
      Accusing people who disagree w/ you of being trolls doesn't bolster your argument.
      - jibal 1y ago
        Speaking of weak arguments: that wasn't the basis of the accusation.
    - thijson 1y ago
      People don't argue with a carpenter over what tools were used to build a piece of furniture. It feels like a religious debate.