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I miss using em dashes
- dhotson 1y agoNow that AI has ruined the emdash for punctuation enthusiasts like us... I've been thinking of switching to the double emdash (⸺) and worst case, fellow humans, there's always the triple: ⸻
- crooked-v 1y agoTime to start using the interrobang‽
- bitwize 1y agoStarting to look like Emacs Lisp source code now, coding standards for which include snake-casing identifiers (standard for Lisp), but since there's no notion of namespacing in the language, identifiers private to package foo start with 'foo--', not 'foo-'.
- typpilol 1y agoThe triple is kind of hilarious. Really emphasizes the pause
- QuantumNomad_ 1y agoSpeaking of pause. I like double period for pause.. it’s like a more polite and shorter pause than the DOT DOT DOT that screams awkwardness and doubt. But I agree that triple em-dash for pause is not half bad either. I could see it becoming a thing, with how it goes the opposite direction and is so over the top :)
- bigyabai 1y agoI don't miss the em dash. Take away my hyphen and I'll be angry; but replacing em dashes with semicolons was personal policy since high school.
- itisuseless 1y agoWhich hyphen is that?
- abathur 1y agoThe em is more than a synonym for semicolon.
- Wowfunhappy 1y ago...someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you're using the semicolon correctly; it sounds wrong to me, at least. I think you'd need to either take out the word "but" (which would cause the sentence to no longer make sense) or, well, change the semicolon to an em dash.
- anon84873628 1y agoFor sure, that's like the exact opposite of why to use it: "A semicolon is used to join two closely related independent clauses (complete sentences) that are not connected by a coordinating conjunction."
- necovek 1y agoHow do you indicate an interjection with semicolons?
- phlakaton 1y agoEmbrace your inner Bringhurst – switch to en-dashes.
- kelseyfrog 1y agoPeople over-update when they see an em-dash. If you compute the posterior probability, you'll realize that seeing an em-dash hardly shifts the probability that text is AI generated.
- pimlottc 1y ago“Over-update”? Do you mean “overreact”?
- jdiff 1y agoI'm guessing over-update their opinion/view, but that's the first I've run into that turn of phrase.
- kelseyfrog 1y agoNo, I mean over-update in a Bayesian capacity. As in, they are updating their prior probability using evidence to arrive at the posterior probability.
- firesteelrain 1y agoHuh?
- cthor 1y agoSee em dash in text Think text much more likely from robot than first thought Grug say this change too big from just one em dash
- ggm 1y ago"I don't often jargon, but when I do jargon I jargon like Chuck Norris"
- smohare 1y ago[dead]
- hsuduebc2 1y agoThese days it almost feels like a breach of etiquette not to tell ChatGPT to avoid em dashes, otherwise it’s immediately obvious the text was generated by GPT.
- add-sub-mul-div 1y agoIf people hate the thing so much that you have to go so far out of your way to disguise it, maybe the breach of etiquette is using the thing.
- JKCalhoun 1y agoI'm not sure why people let others change them. I keep punctuating like it's the 20th Century.
- gljiva 1y agoPeople whose ideas get heavily criticized for "being written by AI" (with most readers missing the point) have less influence and perhaps that influence matters enough to them to adapt, i.e. to "let others change them"
- wpollock 1y ago> I'm not sure why people let others change them. I keep punctuating like it's the 20th Century. In the 20th century, there were two spaces after an end of sentence period. (I still do that.)
- greesil 1y agoI've been called out on this by coworkers in code review. It's mildly infuriating.
- positron26 1y agoThese are the moments that I need to have a confrontation about not bringing up unimportant things. The person who wrote the comment intended to communicate things about the code. The person who brought up the punctuation could change if if they really wanted to, if it was actually productive work. It's about "catching" someone else and having a reason to nip them on the ear. Review like that is what belongs in the garbage.
- Dwedit 1y agoVery annoying how HTML changes your two spaces into one space.
- Wistar 1y agoI use “ ” if I really need a blank space.
- minimaxir 1y agoI'm now using em dashes more out of spite, since my writing is too weird for people to claim it's AI generated so any use of them must be legitimate.
- reval 1y agoContinue using emdashes and trust your audience.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- jiggawatts 1y agoI suspect that at least in part, the fad in the AI community of using all-lowercase is to make sure that their writing can't be mistaken for LLM-generated output. Sam Altman more than anyone else popularised this style and for a while every thrid or fourth comment on any AI-related topic was all lowercase.
- buu700 1y agoI wouldn't worry about it. A year ago the red flag du jour was "delve"; this year it's em dashes; next year it'll be something else. In any case, this is a very online topic that I assume only a vocal minority are hung up on in the first place. If you picked a random person off the street and asked for their thoughts on em dashes, you'd probably get a blank stare. Eventually, as models and their users both improve, we'll collectively realize that trying to reliably discriminate between AI and human writing is no different than reading tea leaves. We should judge content based on its intrinsic value, not its provenance. We should call each other out for poor writing or inaccurate information — not because if we squint we can pick out some loose correlations with ChatGPT's default output style. Consciously trying not to "sound like an LLM" while writing is like consciously trying not to think about the fact that you're currently breathing, or consciously trying to sound like a cool guy.
- campbel 1y ago100%. I use em-dashes a decent amount and plan to continue. If someone wants to incorrectly assume it was AI writing so be it.
- harlanlewis 1y agoI agree completely with this as a human reader - but do wonder about the gradual codification of these markers in systems that will have increasingly have LLM detection as a standard feature, as frequently and obviously enabled as spam detectors were on blog comments back when blogs had comments.
- SoftTalker 1y agoSame. Years ago I took the time to learn the difference between an em-dash, an en-dash, and a hyphen and I'll continue to use them regardless of what AI does. I don't use AI in my writing. If I were still in school would I be tempted? Probably. But in work and personal writing? Never crosses my mind.
- NoGravitas 1y ago
- satisfice 1y agoI still use em dashes because my writing is not slop, and is in no danger of being dismissed as such. I don’t use the word “delve” anymore, however.
- shmerl 1y agoWhat's wrong with em dashes? Use whatever you like. Compose --- should produce — For en dash it's Compose --. produces – Not all fonts show the difference though.
- anon84873628 1y agoThe article wasn't really about that...
- shmerl 1y agoSuggestion that humans don't use symbols like em dash is based on the possible difficulty to use them. The reason is probably because many never used / heard of the Compose key. It's not hard to do it once you learn about it.
- the_af 1y agoI don't think it's because they are mechanically difficult to use as you imply, but rather that they are subtler or more nuanced symbols than most people know how to use. A lot of people are comfortable using the dot, the comma, and maybe exclamation marks. AI-speech seems to strive for more formal writing by default.
- shmerl 1y agoMay be, but mechanical difficulty adds to less usage too.
- ggm 1y agoI miss good typography, but in truth it demands more patience writing than I am prepared to expend, so I am in effect unwilling to put in, what I want to get out. Thats the kind of asymmetry in behaviour which got us here. I grew up online in teletype and ADM5. To some extent, my sense of how text presents is dominated by monotype/fixed-width and em-dashes just never worked in that 7 bit world. Two hyphens is too much. one hyphen is not enough.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- acheron 1y ago"Why should I change? He's the one who sucks."
- m-hodges 1y agoJust gonna leave this here: https://emdash.fan https://emdash.fan
- jachee 1y agoThe real AI tell for me is that it—generally speaking—spaces them incorrectly. An em dash that’s not a sudden interruption shouldn’t have any spacing around it.
- j16sdiz 1y agoAP Style have spaces around it. It is an interruption to me and I think that little pause is intentional. if the author wants no pause they should have used parentheses
- jachee 1y agoBy “not a sudden interruption” I meant something getting cut off mid word. Also, the AP Style guide is hardly relevant when it comes to most writing—especially creative writing.
- softwaredoug 1y agoDoesn’t notion and a bazillion other tools turn two dashes into em-dash?
- Izkata 1y agoI think two dashes get turned into an en dash, not an em dash. Em dash is wider.
- upghost 1y agoI still use em dashes -- I just do it poorly and throw in lots of typis.
- old_bayes 1y agowell thats embarrsing
- GuinansEyebrows 1y agoSorry people are downvoting you. I laughed.
- ivanmontillam 1y agocase in point
- danfo 1y agoVibe dashing: authentically poor dash usage Maybe I’ll take a short pause in a sentence–or show a huge range 0 — 999.
- vsviridov 1y agoAs a fellow .li domain enjoyer - hats off :)
- roskelld 1y agoSame, it's one of the few alt codes I've committed to memory ALT+0151 in Windows.
- phendrenad2 1y agoNo offense to any em-dash lovers, but I think an overuse of em-dashes indicates that your writing is probably slop, just not AI slop, human slop. In a sense, there is a kind of slop that relies on em-dashes to glue things together - usually in a cliche way, learned from lazy journalists copy-pasting from their last article to add a bit of spice to their writing - and AI just copied it. (On the other hand, maybe it's just low-paid writers in South Africa: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/apr/16/techscape-ai-gadgest-humane-ai-pin-chatgpt https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2024/apr/16/techscape... )
- llamavore 1y agoI agree with this too, I have read a lot of academic stuff with - em dashes and it reads like the author doesn't know how to write and is just translating spoken word to text. When you are talking, an aside can make a lot of sense because you are thinking and speaking in real time. When you write you have the luxury of time to reformulate your words more precisely. Em dashes are best kept for prose that mimics speech rather than constructing logical text. It's no coincidence that em dashes are rare in legal texts because they are too imprecise. Where as semicolons are extremely common in legal texts. The S in semicolon stands for S-Tier. Maybe the E in em dash stands for E-Tier? lolz
- shoobiedoo 1y agoMaybe. I fell in love with them after reading Death on the Installment Plan by Celine, where he crams every sentence with them (and sequences of periods that have a similar effect). I found out later that he purposefully did that as a jab at Proust's writing where he did the exact opposite-- sentences a page and a half long with only commas and parenthesis.
- _moof 1y agoAs a wise man once said, "Why should I change? He's the one who sucks."
- gosub100 1y agoI'm calling it now: within a year, somehow a trend will appear where writers will perform their duties under voluntary video surveillance showing the human's face, fingers and screen contents (possibly by multiple cameras) to "prove" they did it on their own. This video will be too voluminous or intrusive to be viewed manually, so it will be analyzed by (you guessed it) AI to determine if the work was authentic. It will probably be developed and required by the corrupt education industry, but perhaps some writers will voluntarily use it to buy authenticity or stand out. But either way, the machine will once again find another way to take our agency and make our lives less enjoyable.
- apparent 1y agoGreat way to make it easy to identify your password based on the sound the keys make as you press them. It's already doable IIRC, but it would be much easier if people were uploading tons of video of themselves typing.
- necovek 1y agoOr much simpler, use the integration with TPM/DRM-style chips to monitor HID input (not too fast too) and publish that to a blockchain as PoW (new NFTs?)
- Cadwhisker 1y agoI'd switch to semicolons, but I need to re-read this book to be sure I'm using them correctly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_%26_Leaves https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_%26_Leaves
- llamavore 1y agoI 100% agree. I hear a lot of pushback from em dash lovers on the semicolon; if you can learn to love an em dash, you can learn to use and love a semicolon. Remember, meaning is based on common usage, so now em dash is slop-nonymous, semicolons can take on a more casual vibe. For example: I love pizza — it's my comfort food. Can just become: I love pizza; it's my comfort food. For asides: I love pizza — especially pepperoni. Can just become: I love pizza (especially pepperoni).
- jrsdav 1y agoI’ve recently developed a serious allergy to this phrasing: > “This was not just X; it’s really Y” Here are some real examples taken from various sources: > "Regenerative businesses don't just minimise harm; they actively create positive change for the environment and people." > "This milestone isn’t just about our growth. It’s about deepening our commitment to you…" > "This wasn’t just a market rally. It was a real-time lesson in how quickly sentiment can fracture and recover when fundamentals remain intact." Hard to say for certain that this is AI slop, but just like em dashes, I see it routinely pop up in LLM prose. And I feel like it’s infected nearly everything I’ve read that was written within the last year.
- martindale 1y agoWhy stop using them now? If they are the correct mark, use them.
- tamimio 1y agoPeople will soon start accepting imperfections as a sign of genuine and authentic in any work that was done, and typos/mistakes as some sort of quick indicator that it was human made. Refreshing to be honest, finally people will embrace the fact that we are humans and we are supposed to do mistakes, instead of the tiring, mentally exhausting, perfectionist behavior. I remember seeing here in HN a company called ‘good enough’ or something along those lines, perfect to be imperfect!
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- pcf 1y agoSuch a missed opportunity in the headline, which could have been "I Miss Using Em Dashes – I Really Do".
- hodgesrm 1y agoGiven the chaos currently infecting the world, overuse of em dashes--or any use for that matter--is the last thing a rational being should worry over. Other than splitting infinitives and ending sentences with a preposition, of course. They are a weighty burden no soul should have to ever put up with.
- upghost 1y agoOften terribly written, I am likewise concerned with dangling participles.
- gerdesj 1y agoThere is rather more to type than the em dash, kicking off with the difference between say a typeface and a font (or fount). Why not get into leading and kerning and the other stuff? Widows and orphans anyone? Getting your knickers in a twist over a minor typographical construction is rather contrived as an indicator of a non human author of a text. It will do for now but won't tomorrow. I can mostly spot LLM output on sight but I can be fooled. I never use silly rules like "em-dash => LLM". That's just silly.
- tqi 1y agoPersonally, I think little litmus tests like usage of a certain word or punctuation are stupid, and it's impossible to tell what is or isn't ai generated. I think people just use it as a convenient excuse to dismiss anything they personally dislike or disagree with as "ai slop."
- dang 1y agoKeep using them then!
- sorcercode 1y agoI recently wrote a post on a way we can [reclaim em dashes back](https://kau.sh/blog/reclaim-dash-lowercase-from-ai/ https://kau.sh/blog/reclaim-dash-lowercase-from-ai/). The key to do it without the LLM stigma is surrounding it with spaces which still doesn't violate typical writing rules.
- beej71 1y agoI still use them when appropriate. On the plus side, people are suddenly aware of what an em dash is. :)
- necovek 1y agoThe article seems to misuse en-dashes in place of hyphens. Perhaps it's just the font, but for a largely graphical difference, that matters. Anyway, I've used em- and en-dashes for a long time now (had it built into keyboard layout on "3rd level", AltGr+key), and not going to stop now.
- gudzpoz 1y agoNow we also have an xkcd for this: > not chatgpt output—i'm just like this. > https://xkcd.com/3126/ https://xkcd.com/3126/ — Disclaimer
- Anthony-G 1y agoMy preferred dash is the en-dash – with a space on either side. I find that many people don’t notice the difference between an en and em-dash but a huge amount more just don’t care.