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Huh? The problem in Europe is not immigration, the problem is there being no European country with a vision of the future for immigrants to buy into. Aestheti

Huh? The problem in Europe is not immigration, the problem is there being no European country with a vision of the future for immigrants to buy into. Aesthetic Traditions ≠ Culture. Traditions are just one aspect, but as Nietzsche wrote about the death of God, traditions are not a substitute for values. America for hundreds of years has offered a shared vision of the future and values to immigrants of every background, and within <1 generation most immigrants become fully integrated. When European identities are all built around stories from the past, and the only vision of the future being offered is one of impending doom and urbanist intellectual memes (climate apocalypse, population decline, social welfare breakdown, economic malaise, technophobia), it's no wonder that immigrants wouldn't want to buy into your culture. I'll enjoy your aesthetic traditions and take your free social welfare, but I'll keep my own culture and values, thank you very much. When your sales pitch is: "we don't like new things here so there's nothing to create, but life here is easy, you don't have to do much because the state will take care of you!" I don't think you're attracting the best citizens.

simianparrot 1y ago
> the only vision of the future being offered is one of impending doom and urbanist intellectual memes I agree with this. Far too many European countries have no optimistic or even productive outlooks on the future, instead seeming to trade in a form of pessimistic reductionism. Eat less, do less, be less. However: > it's no wonder that immigrants wouldn't want to buy into your culture Then why do they stay as long as they can drain resources? I would never move to a country I don't respect, let alone stay to drain resources and give nothing back. That mentality is alien to me. That isn't to say every immigrant is a drain on resources, but the ones that do not buy into the culture, do not buy into the vision (or lack thereof), and do not contribute -- why are they here? Simply because despite all of that it's better than where they came from? If so, we're doing both ourselves and them a disservice by not denying them entry, because both parties end up miserable.
- dkiebd 1y ago
  >I would never move to a country I don't respect, let alone stay to drain resources and give nothing back. Hey, good for you. But there are many societies where making a living without working is something to be proud of. I know because I live in one.
  - eulenteufel 1y ago
    In my perspective it's not that complicated. I'd like to have a good life and I would like for every other human on the planet to also have a good life sustainably. I think it's a rather optimistic vision.
    - dkiebd 1y ago
      Also an unrealistic one. A lot of hard work is necessary for that. Most people don’t want or can’t do that work.
- pembrook 1y ago
  > Eat less, do less, be less. This is one of the weirdest religions in modern Europe and I struggle to explain it. It's a performative self-loathing that accrues social capital in certain circles, with no real end goal. I want to ask these people...so once you eliminate the impact of the human species from the earth...then what? Wait for the asteroid to hit or the sun to engulf the earth, to restore it to its pre-life state?
NeutralForest 1y ago
> The problem in Europe is not immigration, the problem is there being no European country with a vision of the future for immigrants to buy into That's fair and I think it's mostly true. At the same time, comparing "Europe" as a monolith compared to the US doesn't make a lot of sense, the history, languages and religions aren't shared for many countries, contrary to the US. We can circle back to saying it was and is a lack of vision from the EU to not have been more aggressive in creating this culture. > I'll enjoy your aesthetic traditions and take your free social welfare, but I'll keep my own culture and values, thank you very much. From what you wrote, I can somewhat understand this standpoint but this creates strong segregation between communities that aren't healthy and it sounds like a breeding ground for conflict as well.
- simianparrot 1y ago
  It is a prime example for why most of European politics are shifting rightwards. And I'm not saying that's a good thing, overall, it simply is the reason. Far too many who've immigrated here have the GP's viewpoint, and the conflict seems inevitable since our elected representatives have acted paralyzed for decades on this issue. And I personally fear where this is going. Because as much as I want to vet immigrants much more thoroughly and for a time hopefully have net-negative immigration in my country's case, I also know so many immigrants who came here to blend with our culture and are fantastic fellow countrymen. They've enriched our country and culture. When our representatives let it get as bad as it's getting, the ensuing conflict is one that I fear will end up harming indiscriminately, based on ethnicity and simple identifiable markers. All because spineless bureaucrats would rather not put their neck on the line, instead opting to let it all slide into the historically inevitable ugly conflict that seems looming. I am actively looking into non-European destinations to emigrate to, and only ones where I feel I can be a net-positive on their culture and contribute to their economy and society. Because if my worst-case scenario for Europe comes to pass, I don't want to be here to be dragged into it. I don't want to be a contributor in that ugliness.
  - NeutralForest 1y ago
    This sounds very defeatist? I still believe in the European project but it gets hard when you see the current political landscape. That said, I don't think we can only put it on spineless bureaucrats, I don't see many countries having bold policies of integration even at the national level.
PartiallyTyped 1y ago
> I'll enjoy your aesthetic traditions and take your free social welfare, but I'll keep my own culture and values, thank you very much. And I have every right to want you out of country and my taxes not to be wasted on the likes of you.
- pembrook 1y ago
  Which is why socialism is fundamentally incompatible with immigration, and why the US, being a nation of immigrants, is structured the way it is (more individualist). Nobody wants to pay for the new guy to have a luxury first world lifestyle with free healthcare, education and pension. The more a society adopts socialist policies, the less friendly to immigration it becomes. Both the US and most large European countries had roughly the same percentage of GDP driven by central government spending (socialism) in the 1960s...roughly 25-30%. Socialist policies have steadily grown that percentage in both regions, with it happening more dramatically in Europe. The US is now at 35-40%, and Europe at 45-50%. You can map the slowly rising anti-immigrant backlash in the US (and especially in Europe) to this perfectly.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - PartiallyTyped 1y ago
    Immigration is not the problem. The problem lies on the kind of people we allow in and who gets to get welfare.
StopDisinfo910 1y ago
Do we really have to read again and again the same fantasies the far right spew out continuously here in France on Hacker News? It’s so easy to factually disprove, it’s kind of boring. I will keep it short because I value my time but here some things you might want to ponder: - America integration doesn’t exist. The American strategy has always been leave people alone to keep living in their own culture. There is no actual American identity. The only things American have in common in the shared trauma of slavery and the civil war, and the founding myth which is why they remain so prevalent in the US modern discourse. Meanwhile, people will happily talk about "race" culture, half the country would be happy to slaughter the other half and culturally linked riots are a thing. - Europe has a cultural entity doesn’t exist. The UK is different to France which is different to Germany or Danemark. Most of these countries immigration come from former colonies who already understand these countries social norms. - Access to social welfare is severely limited to immigrants. Most of the system drain comes from people who were born in the country, not immigrants. Take any economic studies, you will see than immigration is a net positive in every European country. These are country where the population is aging fast. We simply need the immigrants to prop up the work force. - Integration is a false issue. Most of the problems in France for example come from second generation immigrants who actually went through the French education system. The problem is mostly economic. - The way Islam has been managed is an issue in itself. People deserve to be able to practice their cult freely and in good condition but most European countries have refused to take charge of the question. France for example left far too much space to extremist countries like Saudi Arabia. When most of your imams have been trained in the worst possible interpretations and mosques are financed by countries you shouldn’t want anything to do with, you have a major issue. There clearly is space for better solutions here. - Plenty of political parties in Europe have strong visions for the future. Some of them are linked to social justice and preserving the environment, things you obviously dislike. The fact you can’t understand something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist however.
- zksijdjd 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - amanaplanacanal 1y ago
k4rli 1y ago
Americans have no culture so it makes sense there. No need to have same happen in Europe.
- nradov 1y ago
  What do you mean Americans have no culture? Have you never been to a monster truck rally?

simianparrot 1y ago

> the only vision of the future being offered is one of impending doom and urbanist intellectual memes I agree with this. Far too many European countries have no optimistic or even productive outlooks on the future, instead seeming to trade in a form of pessimistic reductionism. Eat less, do less, be less. However: > it's no wonder that immigrants wouldn't want to buy into your culture Then why do they stay as long as they can drain resources? I would never move to a country I don't respect, let alone stay to drain resources and give nothing back. That mentality is alien to me. That isn't to say every immigrant is a drain on resources, but the ones that do not buy into the culture, do not buy into the vision (or lack thereof), and do not contribute -- why are they here? Simply because despite all of that it's better than where they came from? If so, we're doing both ourselves and them a disservice by not denying them entry, because both parties end up miserable.

dkiebd 1y ago
>I would never move to a country I don't respect, let alone stay to drain resources and give nothing back. Hey, good for you. But there are many societies where making a living without working is something to be proud of. I know because I live in one.
- eulenteufel 1y ago
  In my perspective it's not that complicated. I'd like to have a good life and I would like for every other human on the planet to also have a good life sustainably. I think it's a rather optimistic vision.
  - dkiebd 1y ago
    Also an unrealistic one. A lot of hard work is necessary for that. Most people don’t want or can’t do that work.
pembrook 1y ago
> Eat less, do less, be less. This is one of the weirdest religions in modern Europe and I struggle to explain it. It's a performative self-loathing that accrues social capital in certain circles, with no real end goal. I want to ask these people...so once you eliminate the impact of the human species from the earth...then what? Wait for the asteroid to hit or the sun to engulf the earth, to restore it to its pre-life state?

NeutralForest 1y ago

> The problem in Europe is not immigration, the problem is there being no European country with a vision of the future for immigrants to buy into That's fair and I think it's mostly true. At the same time, comparing "Europe" as a monolith compared to the US doesn't make a lot of sense, the history, languages and religions aren't shared for many countries, contrary to the US. We can circle back to saying it was and is a lack of vision from the EU to not have been more aggressive in creating this culture. > I'll enjoy your aesthetic traditions and take your free social welfare, but I'll keep my own culture and values, thank you very much. From what you wrote, I can somewhat understand this standpoint but this creates strong segregation between communities that aren't healthy and it sounds like a breeding ground for conflict as well.

simianparrot 1y ago
It is a prime example for why most of European politics are shifting rightwards. And I'm not saying that's a good thing, overall, it simply is the reason. Far too many who've immigrated here have the GP's viewpoint, and the conflict seems inevitable since our elected representatives have acted paralyzed for decades on this issue. And I personally fear where this is going. Because as much as I want to vet immigrants much more thoroughly and for a time hopefully have net-negative immigration in my country's case, I also know so many immigrants who came here to blend with our culture and are fantastic fellow countrymen. They've enriched our country and culture. When our representatives let it get as bad as it's getting, the ensuing conflict is one that I fear will end up harming indiscriminately, based on ethnicity and simple identifiable markers. All because spineless bureaucrats would rather not put their neck on the line, instead opting to let it all slide into the historically inevitable ugly conflict that seems looming. I am actively looking into non-European destinations to emigrate to, and only ones where I feel I can be a net-positive on their culture and contribute to their economy and society. Because if my worst-case scenario for Europe comes to pass, I don't want to be here to be dragged into it. I don't want to be a contributor in that ugliness.
- NeutralForest 1y ago
  This sounds very defeatist? I still believe in the European project but it gets hard when you see the current political landscape. That said, I don't think we can only put it on spineless bureaucrats, I don't see many countries having bold policies of integration even at the national level.

PartiallyTyped 1y ago

> I'll enjoy your aesthetic traditions and take your free social welfare, but I'll keep my own culture and values, thank you very much. And I have every right to want you out of country and my taxes not to be wasted on the likes of you.

pembrook 1y ago
Which is why socialism is fundamentally incompatible with immigration, and why the US, being a nation of immigrants, is structured the way it is (more individualist). Nobody wants to pay for the new guy to have a luxury first world lifestyle with free healthcare, education and pension. The more a society adopts socialist policies, the less friendly to immigration it becomes. Both the US and most large European countries had roughly the same percentage of GDP driven by central government spending (socialism) in the 1960s...roughly 25-30%. Socialist policies have steadily grown that percentage in both regions, with it happening more dramatically in Europe. The US is now at 35-40%, and Europe at 45-50%. You can map the slowly rising anti-immigrant backlash in the US (and especially in Europe) to this perfectly.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- PartiallyTyped 1y ago
  Immigration is not the problem. The problem lies on the kind of people we allow in and who gets to get welfare.

StopDisinfo910 1y ago

Do we really have to read again and again the same fantasies the far right spew out continuously here in France on Hacker News? It’s so easy to factually disprove, it’s kind of boring. I will keep it short because I value my time but here some things you might want to ponder: - America integration doesn’t exist. The American strategy has always been leave people alone to keep living in their own culture. There is no actual American identity. The only things American have in common in the shared trauma of slavery and the civil war, and the founding myth which is why they remain so prevalent in the US modern discourse. Meanwhile, people will happily talk about "race" culture, half the country would be happy to slaughter the other half and culturally linked riots are a thing. - Europe has a cultural entity doesn’t exist. The UK is different to France which is different to Germany or Danemark. Most of these countries immigration come from former colonies who already understand these countries social norms. - Access to social welfare is severely limited to immigrants. Most of the system drain comes from people who were born in the country, not immigrants. Take any economic studies, you will see than immigration is a net positive in every European country. These are country where the population is aging fast. We simply need the immigrants to prop up the work force. - Integration is a false issue. Most of the problems in France for example come from second generation immigrants who actually went through the French education system. The problem is mostly economic. - The way Islam has been managed is an issue in itself. People deserve to be able to practice their cult freely and in good condition but most European countries have refused to take charge of the question. France for example left far too much space to extremist countries like Saudi Arabia. When most of your imams have been trained in the worst possible interpretations and mosques are financed by countries you shouldn’t want anything to do with, you have a major issue. There clearly is space for better solutions here. - Plenty of political parties in Europe have strong visions for the future. Some of them are linked to social justice and preserving the environment, things you obviously dislike. The fact you can’t understand something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist however.

zksijdjd 1y ago
[flagged]
- amanaplanacanal 1y ago

k4rli 1y ago

Americans have no culture so it makes sense there. No need to have same happen in Europe.

nradov 1y ago
What do you mean Americans have no culture? Have you never been to a monster truck rally?