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You've got a 16 inch Laptop, why are the arrow keys so tiny! And where's the PgUp PgDn Home End Insert Delete cluster? I wish a design-based shop like Framewo
by kristianp 1y ago
You've got a 16 inch Laptop, why are the arrow keys so tiny! And where's the PgUp PgDn Home End Insert Delete cluster? I wish a design-based shop like Framework would have some leadership in the keyboard area. This is why I have been exclusively Thinkpads for my last 3 laptops.
Something more niche is that I also enjoy the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I can move with the thumb and click with a finger.
- diggernet 1y agoMy fantasy for the Laptop 16 keyboard: Optional taller hinges and thicker bezel. Think about it... Replacement hinges that separate the upper and lower shell by an extra 1/8-1/4" plus a thicker bezel to fill that gap. Suddenly (at the cost of a thicker laptop, for those of us who don't mind) you have extra space under the screen for longer key throw, contoured key caps, trackpoint, arrow keys that overlap the lower deck to allow a proper inverted-T layout, etc. Maybe even possible to retrofit old ThinkPad keyboards in there. Hey, I can dream, can't I?
- cuddlybacon 1y ago> Something more niche is that I also enjoy the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I can move with the thumb and click with a finger. This logic is why I like the tiny arrow keys. I find it pretty easy to move my pinky over and tap one of those keys. With full size keys, I find that doesn't really work.
- jeberle 1y agoLikewise, I would kill for gaps between Esc/F1, F4/F5, and F8/F9. ThinkPads do this although it is very subtle. The gaps let you use the the function keys by feel rather than looking at them. They tend to be mapped in debuggers so hitting the wrong key is a big deal. I actually don't mind the smaller arrow keys as again, they make it easier to drive by feel rather than by looking.
- Frotag 1y ago> And where's the PgUp PgDn Home End Insert Delete cluster? I'm typing this comment on a first gen framework 16 keyboard. It's the same layout as the second gen in OP, where PgUp/PgDown are bound to fn+KeyUp fn+KeyDown and Home/End are bound to fn+KeyLeft fn+KeyRight. I actually prefer the bindings over dedicated buttons since if I need to use home/end, I'm probably also going to need to go to the previous/next line with the up/down keys.
- Narishma 1y agoAt least the arrow keys are all the same size, unlike that super common awful design where the left and right keys are twice the size of the up and down keys.
- ivape 1y agoI was just badgering Gemini to find me a modern laptop with keys like the PowerBook g4. It looks like everything went chiclet style keys around 2012. Still on the lookout for anything that’s not chiclet based, but they literally don’t exist.
- jazzyjackson 1y agoHow about the mechanical keys on the alienware m15 / m17? https://dell.alienwarearena.com/alienware-debuts-the-worlds-first-gaming-laptop-with-cherry-mx-ultra-low/ https://dell.alienwarearena.com/alienware-debuts-the-worlds-...
- silon42 1y agoI really wish it was just low profile...
- wpm 1y agoI have half a mind to buy a really rough looking PB G4, gut it, and see what kind of very small Pi or N100 shaped thing I can fit inside.
- sudokatsu 1y agoStill my favorite laptop of all time. Wish I could buy a new one with modern internals.
- naikrovek 1y agoYou probably want a full numpad shifting the entire keyboard off-center as well?
- winrid 1y agoNo, this is something terrible the modern thinkpads have. My 2018 era thinkpads have the pg up/down arrow keys and a regular full width keyboard. That's what I want, anyway.
- KyleBerezin 1y agoApple people always complain about this. It takes like 1 day to get used to. I will never understand how so many people mistake familiar with 'better'. I have always preferred a numpad, and it drives me crazy when people act like my preference is 'wrong', and that the fact the fw-16 supports it somehow devalues it.
- promiseofbeans 1y agoI mean, they made their keyboard swappable, with open-source firmware. If you are passionate enough, you can make (and sell) a replacement that solves these issues.
- bigstrat2003 1y agoMaking custom electronics goes way beyond "passionate" and into "has specialized skills and enough capital to get these made".
- rendaw 1y agoI think "well just make the PR yourself" comments are too reductionist myself, but in this case Framework does have space for 3rd party components in the marketplace. I don't think it'd be crazy to imagine some custom keyboards will appear there. And here's an example of someone making a custom keyboard: https://blog.perprogramming.com/posts/framework-ortholinear-keyboard/ https://blog.perprogramming.com/posts/framework-ortholinear-... - it looks pretty awesome, and I'm fairly sure this is the first time I've ever seen a laptop with an ergo keyboard like that. Framework 16 is a collection of modules, so I think complaining about the modules is fair game, but it could also be seen as a basis/standard that isn't expected to fit everyone's needs, but fit maybe 90% and allow other people to make the customizations they need easier, in which case complaining about they arrow keys on a single component does feel a bit trivial.
- psolidgold 1y agoThe keyboards have full NKRO support and are fully mappable with QMK firmware, plus they offer blank key caps AND a macro or numpad input module. That feels like plenty of leadership to me - that's unheard of in any other laptop. Can't please everyone I guess.
- eviks 1y agoIf they designed their keyboard ergonomically, they wouldn't need numpad modules. But yes, can't please everyone, too many people with low standards easily pleasable
- illiac786 1y agoBit pedantic… being satisfied with less is a quality, let’s not forget this.
- copperx 1y agoPositive or negative quality?
- illiac786 1y agoTo me, it’s a positive quality.
- eviks 1y agoUniversally? Even if it leads to decades of rsi-health-dangerously poor manufacturing quality?
- illiac786 1y agoDepends on the context, but generally yes. It’s not new, it’s called asceticism, frugality, many other names I guess. Also, asking for more is very rarely a form of altruism: no one asks for more to avoid (others) “decades of rsi-health-dangerously poor manufacturing quality”, it’s generally for one’s own benefit, nothing more.
- martin82 1y agoUse VIM bindings, and you will never need the "PgUp PgDn Home End Insert Delete cluster" ever again. I surely didn't miss it a single day in the past 15 years...
- DanOpcode 1y agoMy last 3 laptops have also been Thinkpads. In addition to the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I also enjoy Thinkpad's trackpoint. Too bad Framework doesn't offer any mouse buttons and trackpoint on their keyboards, otherwise I might have considered them.
- Rotareti 1y agoSame here. I've been using Lenovo/ThinkPads for the last 12 years mainly because of the pointer. It's perfect for programming. I'm more productive and focused when I keep my hands on the home row all the time. I don't see myself ever going back to a touchpad.
- Moomoomoo309 1y agoThe company actually put a video out a yesterday or the day before about adding a trackpoint - they're open to the idea, but they're all too tall! They actually tried to add it, but it always put pressure on the screen because their keyboards are too low-profile to accommodate one.
- DanOpcode 1y agoI watched that video yesterday. Too bad. I'm glad they have looked into it at least. But too bad that Lenovo is able to build laptops with a trackpoint but not them. I don't see myself using a touchpad again if I can avoid it, so I'm afraid I will keep using ThinkPads for the foreseeable future.
- KyleBerezin 1y agoJust make it soft and fleshy! And if you prefer it firmer just blow on it or use an ice cube