3 ms·

Electric owners under-value the last 20% of their battery. That is the most important 20% If you are running out of "gas" , every lost mile is a mile walking

Electric owners under-value the last 20% of their battery. That is the most important 20% If you are running out of "gas" , every lost mile is a mile walking (or being towed). that last 20% of range is the difference between making it to the next charger or being dead on the road. And with electric it's a bigger burden because they can't be refilled with gasoline. As a practical example, my recent charging forecast dropped from 12% to zero % during the drive (this was controlled for consumption, ambient temps, driving speed etc). We finally arrived with 3% on the battery. So that means in a year, we will not be able to make that exact same drive. That is a problem needing addressed. I've also not heard great things with the warranties. It seems people struggle to redeem compensation via warranty. And the qualifying conditions are not helpful for most customers experiencing poor performance. I'm happy with my electric car, but I don't think more of the market will adopt them until this issue is directly addressed. "only 20%" dismisses the most critical and insecure experiences with the car.

xeromal 1y ago
Yeah, I had a model S for about 4 years and struggled with the bottom 20%. Everything becomes a stressful game of can I make it if the wind is too high. Part of this issue will be solved with more charging stations but the other part is degradation as you said.
- tonymet 1y ago
  I can relate. I've gotten pretty confident by watching the *consumption tab -- but i don't think most drivers should have to . I think the ones who dismiss this issue drive regular routes with the EV and don't push the boundaries . Then there are the rest of us who actually try to test the limits where you encounter a good deal of unsettling unpredictability . I've pulled supercharger data and found discrepancies between the before and after kwh delivered -- explaining some discrepancies in the charging and forecasts. I don't think anyone else has gone into that level of detail.
gerdesj 1y ago
"Electric owners under-value the last 20% of their battery. That is the most important 20%" It's not exactly like an ICE. An ICE (in Europe) will put up a warning light at "I have roughly 50 miles left" you put your max speed at 50mph and find a garage. Job done. I've owned quite a few of them over 30 years. I currently have a MG4 (Saic) Long Range and an elderly Renault Clio. The EV has a demonstrable range of at least 300 miles. UK temperatures. The Clio can do around 600 miles on a full tank. I treat my EV in a similar way to my ICE. When it says it has 50 miles left, I look for petrol or sparks. That works here, now in the UK. It will work in quite a lot of Europe, some of the US, and will be laughable in most of Australia and Canada, most of Africa, ... anyway you get the idea. They - ICE and EV are simply different. You have to learn to work with how they operate. Oh and I pay £1.28 per litre and 7p per KWh (for overnight car charging). The petrol price is low at the moment for here (it hit £2+ when Russia went mental). Quite loose numbers: 600 mi using 50 litres at £1.30 per litre is £65. 300 mi using 70 kWh at £0.07 per kWh is £4.90 say £5. So, less than 20% cost in fuel (£65 vs £10) for an EV (here and now). I'm not too sure the Clio can really manage 600 miles nowadays but it is a good 15 years old! If I have to use a motorway/commercial charger then the cost is around £0.50 to £0.80 per kWh (https://www.gridserve.com/electric-vehicle-charging/our-pricing/ https://www.gridserve.com/electric-vehicle-charging/our-pric...) I don't use them very often The EV will need a new battery in around four years time, or I pass it on. ICEs are around 150 years old. I went to school in Abingdon, where the Morris Garage (MG) operated from in about 1930(?/ish). My MG is a Chinese effort and about as British as I am. EVs are at about the stage that ICEs were when a bloke had to walk in front with a red flag.
- aidenn0 1y ago
  > Oh and I pay £1.28 per litre and 7p per KWh (for overnight car charging). The petrol price is low at the moment for here (it hit £2+ when Russia went mental). I (in the US, California) pay less for petrol than you and more for electricity; 87p/L and 23p/kWh overnight.
  - tonymet 1y ago
    You're highlighting something that's not relevant. The people who are abandoning their EVs are doing so in spite of the tremendous savings. That should raise alarms.
OkayPhysicist 1y ago
Whether it's the first or last 20% of the battery is a software problem: People adjust their driving habits to avoid running out of charge, in the same way that people adjust their driving habits to not run out of gas. A car losing power when it claims to still have 20% left is a big problem, because it's failing to present you with the information with which to base your plan. If the readout on my car simply said that it had 240 miles of range on a full charge instead of 300, there's a good chance I wouldn't even notice. On the exceptionally rare instance that I'm driving more than 200 miles in a day, I appreciate the half an hour to stretch my legs and grab a snack while my car's on a fast charger.
- tonymet 1y ago
  it's only software until the hardware becomes the boundary condition. You're right for many drivers with dense charger coverage it's a nuisance. But there are drivers who take trips with sparse charger coverage , where the 20% loss means insecure or impossible trips.
  - OkayPhysicist 1y ago
    You really need to be in the middle of nowhere for a 200 mile range to be a problem. I've made quite a few trips in my Bolt where I worried there wouldn't be coverage (rural Indiana was my biggest concern), but it consistently turned out to be unfounded. In rural areas chargers certainly thin out, but you can safely drive the interstates and the vast majority of state highway with less than 100 miles between chargers.
    - tonymet 1y ago
      The fact is you felt insecure because there was a risk. And with growing degradation means more of a buffer is needed. A 300 mi range vehicle is 192mi due to the buffer, and even that dwindles. Only half of the non-Tesla EV chargers work, so your 200 mile charger now takes 6 hours to do the next 200 miles. Even super chargers only function well over the bottom 50% of the battery . So the usable window is shrinking and shrinking. All of these practical insecurities will need to be fixed before EVs expand beyond just a niche product. You can dismiss them as silly or user error, but you won't sell any more vehicles that way.
Dylan16807 1y ago
If the top of your charge level is the "last 20%", then you can have two or three or four or more "last 20%"s by buying a bigger battery. I'd say the opposite, that you're losing the first 20% as your battery degrades, which is the least important part. And if you need a specific range for some trip, again just size your battery appropriately. Make sure 80% or 70% of the brand new range is enough for that trip.
imtringued 1y ago
Depending on the car brand you can drive several dozen kilometers even after hitting 0%. Fully emptying an electric car is a boring exercise in stupidity. Unless you are going out of your way to do it, you will never run into a situation where you need to get your car towed.
- tonymet 1y ago
  That’s not true. I have documented a forecasting calibration issue specific to certain supercharging scenarios where the forecast drops 10% upon departure . The driver can follow the plan and still go below 0

xeromal 1y ago

Yeah, I had a model S for about 4 years and struggled with the bottom 20%. Everything becomes a stressful game of can I make it if the wind is too high. Part of this issue will be solved with more charging stations but the other part is degradation as you said.

tonymet 1y ago
I can relate. I've gotten pretty confident by watching the *consumption tab -- but i don't think most drivers should have to . I think the ones who dismiss this issue drive regular routes with the EV and don't push the boundaries . Then there are the rest of us who actually try to test the limits where you encounter a good deal of unsettling unpredictability . I've pulled supercharger data and found discrepancies between the before and after kwh delivered -- explaining some discrepancies in the charging and forecasts. I don't think anyone else has gone into that level of detail.

gerdesj 1y ago

"Electric owners under-value the last 20% of their battery. That is the most important 20%" It's not exactly like an ICE. An ICE (in Europe) will put up a warning light at "I have roughly 50 miles left" you put your max speed at 50mph and find a garage. Job done. I've owned quite a few of them over 30 years. I currently have a MG4 (Saic) Long Range and an elderly Renault Clio. The EV has a demonstrable range of at least 300 miles. UK temperatures. The Clio can do around 600 miles on a full tank. I treat my EV in a similar way to my ICE. When it says it has 50 miles left, I look for petrol or sparks. That works here, now in the UK. It will work in quite a lot of Europe, some of the US, and will be laughable in most of Australia and Canada, most of Africa, ... anyway you get the idea. They - ICE and EV are simply different. You have to learn to work with how they operate. Oh and I pay £1.28 per litre and 7p per KWh (for overnight car charging). The petrol price is low at the moment for here (it hit £2+ when Russia went mental). Quite loose numbers: 600 mi using 50 litres at £1.30 per litre is £65. 300 mi using 70 kWh at £0.07 per kWh is £4.90 say £5. So, less than 20% cost in fuel (£65 vs £10) for an EV (here and now). I'm not too sure the Clio can really manage 600 miles nowadays but it is a good 15 years old! If I have to use a motorway/commercial charger then the cost is around £0.50 to £0.80 per kWh (https://www.gridserve.com/electric-vehicle-charging/our-pricing/ https://www.gridserve.com/electric-vehicle-charging/our-pric...) I don't use them very often The EV will need a new battery in around four years time, or I pass it on. ICEs are around 150 years old. I went to school in Abingdon, where the Morris Garage (MG) operated from in about 1930(?/ish). My MG is a Chinese effort and about as British as I am. EVs are at about the stage that ICEs were when a bloke had to walk in front with a red flag.

aidenn0 1y ago
> Oh and I pay £1.28 per litre and 7p per KWh (for overnight car charging). The petrol price is low at the moment for here (it hit £2+ when Russia went mental). I (in the US, California) pay less for petrol than you and more for electricity; 87p/L and 23p/kWh overnight.
- tonymet 1y ago
  You're highlighting something that's not relevant. The people who are abandoning their EVs are doing so in spite of the tremendous savings. That should raise alarms.

OkayPhysicist 1y ago

Whether it's the first or last 20% of the battery is a software problem: People adjust their driving habits to avoid running out of charge, in the same way that people adjust their driving habits to not run out of gas. A car losing power when it claims to still have 20% left is a big problem, because it's failing to present you with the information with which to base your plan. If the readout on my car simply said that it had 240 miles of range on a full charge instead of 300, there's a good chance I wouldn't even notice. On the exceptionally rare instance that I'm driving more than 200 miles in a day, I appreciate the half an hour to stretch my legs and grab a snack while my car's on a fast charger.

tonymet 1y ago
it's only software until the hardware becomes the boundary condition. You're right for many drivers with dense charger coverage it's a nuisance. But there are drivers who take trips with sparse charger coverage , where the 20% loss means insecure or impossible trips.
- OkayPhysicist 1y ago
  You really need to be in the middle of nowhere for a 200 mile range to be a problem. I've made quite a few trips in my Bolt where I worried there wouldn't be coverage (rural Indiana was my biggest concern), but it consistently turned out to be unfounded. In rural areas chargers certainly thin out, but you can safely drive the interstates and the vast majority of state highway with less than 100 miles between chargers.
  - tonymet 1y ago
    The fact is you felt insecure because there was a risk. And with growing degradation means more of a buffer is needed. A 300 mi range vehicle is 192mi due to the buffer, and even that dwindles. Only half of the non-Tesla EV chargers work, so your 200 mile charger now takes 6 hours to do the next 200 miles. Even super chargers only function well over the bottom 50% of the battery . So the usable window is shrinking and shrinking. All of these practical insecurities will need to be fixed before EVs expand beyond just a niche product. You can dismiss them as silly or user error, but you won't sell any more vehicles that way.

Dylan16807 1y ago

If the top of your charge level is the "last 20%", then you can have two or three or four or more "last 20%"s by buying a bigger battery. I'd say the opposite, that you're losing the first 20% as your battery degrades, which is the least important part. And if you need a specific range for some trip, again just size your battery appropriately. Make sure 80% or 70% of the brand new range is enough for that trip.

imtringued 1y ago

Depending on the car brand you can drive several dozen kilometers even after hitting 0%. Fully emptying an electric car is a boring exercise in stupidity. Unless you are going out of your way to do it, you will never run into a situation where you need to get your car towed.

tonymet 1y ago
That’s not true. I have documented a forecasting calibration issue specific to certain supercharging scenarios where the forecast drops 10% upon departure . The driver can follow the plan and still go below 0