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A good place to start is Cornelis Agrippa’s “Three Books on Occult Philosophy.” Agrippa was a lawyer and esoteric feminist (eg, he wrote “on the nobility and pr
by dr_dshiv 1y ago
A good place to start is Cornelis Agrippa’s “Three Books on Occult Philosophy.” Agrippa was a lawyer and esoteric feminist (eg, he wrote “on the nobility and preeminence of the female sex”) and defended women accused of witchcraft throughout Europe. His “three books” gave birth to the “occult” nomenclature.
Or my favorite, Marsilio Ficino. There is a statue to Ficino when you walk into the library. Ficino was hired by Cosimo Medici (the Florentine who invented banking and funded much of the Florentine renaissance) to translate Plato and other esoteric books coming from the fall of Constantinople. He published “De Mysteriis” in 1497, which paraphrases neoplatonic understanding of Gods, Demons, Heroes and Soul — arguing that gods and demons don’t feel — indeed, not even the soul (“the lowest of the divines”) has any part that feels.
(Aside: This idea was actually referenced in “K Pop Demon Hunters,” where they debate whether demons can feel — or are “all feelings”)
It is an old Pythagorean tradition that sensation or consciousness arises out of the interaction of the immaterial soul and the material body. That “three world” idea is echoed by Nobel Laureate Roger Penrose in his book “Road to Reality.” He talks about how the material world produces the world of consciousness which produces the world of ideas (including mathematics), which seems to produce the material world…
In any case, there are many old ideas and nuggets of wisdom that have yet to be mined and discovered— don’t think for a moment that scholars have read all these books! We might need AI for that…
- zoogeny 1y agoI think your description of Penrose's belief does not match a podcast I recently watched where he discusses these topics with the Christian apologist William Lane Craig [1]. In fact, he explicitly states early on in that video that he sees the world of ideas as primary as opposed to Craig's view that consciousness is primary. At any rate, this video might serve as a quick introduction to Penrose's three world idea for those interested. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wLtCqm72-Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wLtCqm72-Y
- dr_dshiv 1y agoOh, cool! I don’t recall a “primary” in the book — he suggests a range of different possible configurations that he was open to. What struck you as not matching? Personally, I do think that the immaterial world of ideas must be primary—at least certain aspects of mathematics seem so necessary that they’d be discovered by intelligent life, no matter the galaxy… or simulation…
- ryandv 1y ago> Personally, I do think that the immaterial world of ideas must be primary—at least certain aspects of mathematics seem so necessary that they’d be discovered by intelligent life, no matter the galaxy… or simulation… For some speculative philosophical fiction that explores related ideas I highly recommend Neal Stephenson's Anathem.
- throwanem 1y agoAll life also defecates, intelligent or otherwise. Curious how no one hastens to canonize that for its ubiquity.
- cess11 1y agoThere's a fair bit of defecation in the Bible. Saul shitting in a cave, I forgot where, or Paul calling all material things 'skubala', i.e. waste, as in junk, poop, refuse, basically what we'd call shit today: https://www.greekbible.com/philippians/3/8 https://www.greekbible.com/philippians/3/8 Edit: This also seems like a decent opportunity to bring up the scatological Luther. https://www.wilsonquarterly.com/quarterly/summer-2012-american-vistas/the-scatological-luther https://www.wilsonquarterly.com/quarterly/summer-2012-americ...
- krapp 1y agoAlso Ezekiel 4:9-13, where God commanded Ezekiel to bake bread in a fire fueled by human shit because He was angry at the Israelites, but Ezekiel haggled God down to just using cow shit.
- ForOldHack 1y agoThanks so much for this fuel. The idea is weird,but it's good shit.
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- ryandv 1y ago> It is an old Pythagorean tradition that sensation or consciousness arises out of the interaction of the immaterial soul and the material body. That “three world” idea is echoed by Nobel Laureate Roger Penrose in his book “Road to Reality.” He talks about how the material world produces the world of consciousness which produces the world of ideas (including mathematics), which seems to produce the material world… You see this idea echoed in Hermetic Qabalah as the "Four Worlds" - the world of action & physical materiality, the world of psychology, thought, feeling, & egoic consciousness, the world of creativity, and the world of archetypal abstraction. The Hermetic influence comes from the assertion that the three immaterial worlds of the "soul" or "mind" (synonyms with the same referent) are in some sense equal to, or at least intertwined with, the material body, in a mutually reciprocal dance: "As above, so below; as below, so above." For some 20th century texts in this neighbourhood: The Three Initiates' primer on occult studies The Kybalion, Dion Fortune's Mystical Qabalah, and the classic Qabalistic reference: Liber 777 by Crowley (or its updated, more legible version, Liber 776 1/2 by Eshelman). The works of Israel Regardie such as The One Year Manual or The Middle Pillar are also good for grounding occult studies in more psychological or psychotherapeutic language which is a good moderating influence when experimenting with pretty out-there material. Be careful with the meaning of words in this field.
- elmomle 1y agoAlso reflected in Vedic/Hindu philosophy: conscious experience (cetanā) arises from the interfacing of ātman (the immaterial self / soul) with śarīra (the physical body).
- calebio 1y agoIt's turtles all the way down.
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- unsupp0rted 1y agoWell as long as there are words for it then it’s probably true. It doesn’t actually predict or fix anything, even after thousands of years. But it’s hard enough to pin down that you can’t disprove any of it.
- Anon84 1y agoIf you're looking for a physical version, the latest translation by Eric Purdue is exceptionally well researched and documented: https://amzn.to/4ly4wTf https://amzn.to/4ly4wTf
- Archelaos 1y ago> don’t think for a moment that scholars have read all these books! Umberto Eco probably did.
- teecha 1y agoAny recommended hard copy? Seems like there are more than a few floating around.
- Anon84 1y agoIf you're looking for a physical version, the latest translation by Eric Purdue is exceptionally well researched and documented: https://amzn.to/4ly4wTf https://amzn.to/4ly4wTf
- droopyEyelids 1y agoWhere did you find De Mysteriis? Any edition you recommend?
- pegasus 1y agoHow would mathematics produce the material world?
- MarkPNeyer 1y agoIf the material world produces ideas, then there is no truth and ideas can’t be wrong: it’s all just, like, your opinion, man. But if consciousness and ideas come first, the creation of the material world becomes a kind of game. The hard problem of consciousness is then confused, and replaced with a simpler question: why would pure consciousness that could play any game (ie explore any mathematical structure) choose to play within these laws of physics?