4 ms·

> common pitfall of techno-idealists Common pitfall? It’s why these techno-idealists are loudmouthed on the internet, but don’t get respect anywhere politicall

> common pitfall of techno-idealists Common pitfall? It’s why these techno-idealists are loudmouthed on the internet, but don’t get respect anywhere politically. If you want to gain ground politically, you need to at least acknowledge what the problem is, or is perceived to be, and offer a real solution. “Nope we can’t do that because of this 0.1% edge case” doesn’t qualify. “Apple should just dump all schematics online regardless of what China might do” doesn’t qualify. “The internet is great at it is, and your political concerns are invalid” doesn’t qualify.

Seattle3503 1y ago
Yeah, it feels like a junior engineer fresh out their undergrad algorithms course. The business isn't going to grind to a halt and wait until you build the perfect solution.
- gjsman-1000 1y ago
  Let’s take the pornography argument for example. Regardless of whether pornography is, or should be legal, average exposure is now 11 years old. That’s average, many kids are even younger. If this even prevents 95% of kids from accessing pornography until they’re 15 and get a debit card to buy a VPN, that’s a win in the eyes of most parents and legislators. It doesn’t need to be perfect, or even perfectly force you to be 18, to get the primary job done. Pointing to “a 16 year old can get around it with a VPN” is missing the point. It’s not a surprise why that argument falls on deaf ears. Or, another one, “just use parental controls,” have you even tried this? Almost all parental controls are horrifically buggy, full of loopholes, and these kids can just borrow each other’s technology. Apple’s parental controls predate HTML5 (literally, HTML 4.01) and regularly don’t work, sometimes even by their own admission. It also forces the parent to be in the role of a tech expert fluent in Microsoft, Apple, Google, Nintendo, and other products all at once. You might as well get CompTIA certified. That argument also falls on deaf ears.
  - idle_zealot 1y ago
    > Apple’s parental controls predate HTML5 (literally, XHTML 4.01) and regularly don’t work, sometimes even by their own admission. It also forces the parent to be in the role of a tech expert. That argument also falls on deaf ears. The solution, then, ought to be to pass a law requiring some sort of standardized parental controls that allow trivial set-and-forget management. Require device manufacturers/software distributors to sort out a "child mode" switch you can flip upon device initialization, in-your-face and unmissable, and then have apps/webpages be able to see whether the device reports it's in child mode. Does this not solve the "prevents 95% of kids from accessing pornography" threshold of effectiveness while being infinitely less invasive?
    - gjsman-1000 1y ago
      It’s a better argument, and would gain more political ground, than do nothing. However, there’s one major problem: Most families aren’t actually using the multi-user capabilities of their devices. Many devices, like iPads or iPhones, just don’t support multi-user at all. The result? Either parents are tech experts again, or have deep pockets to get everyone a device, or you’re going to have a bunch of kids logged in as their parents on their devices (as is already the case). Of course, that defeats the policy goal. That’s a non-starter, unless we agreed that a device manufacturer could force a biometric check when accessing an age-verified device account. Nobody has proposed such a thing; but if there was a good way of making sure that the age-verified user is the actual person engaging with the age-verified account, then we might have progress in that direction. Personally though, I would really prefer to not have the government get any ideas whatsoever about dictating firmware or OS security or OS parental control requirements. Do you really want your Linux distribution mandated to implement an age check firmware with phoning home requirements to a government parental control server?
      - wvenable 1y ago
        That's not a major problem. Also, how does age verification fix things in that scenario if a child is using their parents device? If a parent can't be bothered to pin-lock their device or flip it into child mode then there is no technological solution. Now you're the one looking for the perfect solution that doesn't exist.
AllegedAlec 1y ago
> If you want to gain ground politically, you need to at least acknowledge what the problem is, or is perceived to be, and offer a real solution. Why? If you do not believe it is a problem that's just like apologizing when you haven't done anything wrong.
- Barrin92 1y ago
  if you, like Cory Doctorow, are an activist there's two options. One you scream from a soapbox with no regard for what other people think in which case it's evident you're doing it for self-aggrandizement and attention, or you take into account what the sensibilities and problems are of the people you try to convince and work within that frame of reference. If you're campaigning for technological and/or political change you're in the business of changing peoples minds and if that doesn't matter to you, you've chosen an odd way to spend your time.
  - Hizonner 1y ago
    I think all members of your ethnic group are inferior and dangerous (if you identify with more than one ethnic group, pick one). I'm calling for legislation mandating that you all be rounded up and put in camps. If you want to argue against my proposal, please remember to stay within my frame of reference.
    - foldr 1y ago
      That’s an example where there’s not much point in arguing against your proposal precisely because of the impossibility of establishing any kind of shared frame of reference. If people are trying to put you in concentration camps then the time for reasoned argument has most likely passed. On the other hand, people who support and oppose these sorts of age verification laws might actually have a lot of common ground, if they’d take the time to find it.
    - Barrin92 1y ago
      >If you want to argue against my proposal, I don't need to which was my point. You're trying to advance a position so extreme that you'd make a terrible aspiring bigot in US politics. The ones that have some political brains never advance positions so maximalist they turn 80% of the country away.

Seattle3503 1y ago

Yeah, it feels like a junior engineer fresh out their undergrad algorithms course. The business isn't going to grind to a halt and wait until you build the perfect solution.

gjsman-1000 1y ago
Let’s take the pornography argument for example. Regardless of whether pornography is, or should be legal, average exposure is now 11 years old. That’s average, many kids are even younger. If this even prevents 95% of kids from accessing pornography until they’re 15 and get a debit card to buy a VPN, that’s a win in the eyes of most parents and legislators. It doesn’t need to be perfect, or even perfectly force you to be 18, to get the primary job done. Pointing to “a 16 year old can get around it with a VPN” is missing the point. It’s not a surprise why that argument falls on deaf ears. Or, another one, “just use parental controls,” have you even tried this? Almost all parental controls are horrifically buggy, full of loopholes, and these kids can just borrow each other’s technology. Apple’s parental controls predate HTML5 (literally, HTML 4.01) and regularly don’t work, sometimes even by their own admission. It also forces the parent to be in the role of a tech expert fluent in Microsoft, Apple, Google, Nintendo, and other products all at once. You might as well get CompTIA certified. That argument also falls on deaf ears.
- idle_zealot 1y ago
  > Apple’s parental controls predate HTML5 (literally, XHTML 4.01) and regularly don’t work, sometimes even by their own admission. It also forces the parent to be in the role of a tech expert. That argument also falls on deaf ears. The solution, then, ought to be to pass a law requiring some sort of standardized parental controls that allow trivial set-and-forget management. Require device manufacturers/software distributors to sort out a "child mode" switch you can flip upon device initialization, in-your-face and unmissable, and then have apps/webpages be able to see whether the device reports it's in child mode. Does this not solve the "prevents 95% of kids from accessing pornography" threshold of effectiveness while being infinitely less invasive?
  - gjsman-1000 1y ago
    It’s a better argument, and would gain more political ground, than do nothing. However, there’s one major problem: Most families aren’t actually using the multi-user capabilities of their devices. Many devices, like iPads or iPhones, just don’t support multi-user at all. The result? Either parents are tech experts again, or have deep pockets to get everyone a device, or you’re going to have a bunch of kids logged in as their parents on their devices (as is already the case). Of course, that defeats the policy goal. That’s a non-starter, unless we agreed that a device manufacturer could force a biometric check when accessing an age-verified device account. Nobody has proposed such a thing; but if there was a good way of making sure that the age-verified user is the actual person engaging with the age-verified account, then we might have progress in that direction. Personally though, I would really prefer to not have the government get any ideas whatsoever about dictating firmware or OS security or OS parental control requirements. Do you really want your Linux distribution mandated to implement an age check firmware with phoning home requirements to a government parental control server?
    - wvenable 1y ago
      That's not a major problem. Also, how does age verification fix things in that scenario if a child is using their parents device? If a parent can't be bothered to pin-lock their device or flip it into child mode then there is no technological solution. Now you're the one looking for the perfect solution that doesn't exist.

AllegedAlec 1y ago

> If you want to gain ground politically, you need to at least acknowledge what the problem is, or is perceived to be, and offer a real solution. Why? If you do not believe it is a problem that's just like apologizing when you haven't done anything wrong.

Barrin92 1y ago
if you, like Cory Doctorow, are an activist there's two options. One you scream from a soapbox with no regard for what other people think in which case it's evident you're doing it for self-aggrandizement and attention, or you take into account what the sensibilities and problems are of the people you try to convince and work within that frame of reference. If you're campaigning for technological and/or political change you're in the business of changing peoples minds and if that doesn't matter to you, you've chosen an odd way to spend your time.
- Hizonner 1y ago
  I think all members of your ethnic group are inferior and dangerous (if you identify with more than one ethnic group, pick one). I'm calling for legislation mandating that you all be rounded up and put in camps. If you want to argue against my proposal, please remember to stay within my frame of reference.
  - foldr 1y ago
    That’s an example where there’s not much point in arguing against your proposal precisely because of the impossibility of establishing any kind of shared frame of reference. If people are trying to put you in concentration camps then the time for reasoned argument has most likely passed. On the other hand, people who support and oppose these sorts of age verification laws might actually have a lot of common ground, if they’d take the time to find it.
  - Barrin92 1y ago
    >If you want to argue against my proposal, I don't need to which was my point. You're trying to advance a position so extreme that you'd make a terrible aspiring bigot in US politics. The ones that have some political brains never advance positions so maximalist they turn 80% of the country away.