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If it's ultimately in the price of goods, then it doesn't cost the consumer nothing, no matter how you spin it. It's just cleverly hidden. I think it's close t

If it's ultimately in the price of goods, then it doesn't cost the consumer nothing, no matter how you spin it. It's just cleverly hidden. I think it's close to impossible to "fix" Visa without government intervention (e.g. limit fees to a fraction of a percent), but I'm still grateful to anyone who tries.

paranoidrobot 1y ago
> I think it's close to impossible to "fix" Visa without government intervention (e.g. limit fees to a fraction of a percent), but I'm still grateful to anyone who tries. This is what Australia is looking at currently: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-07-15/rba-credit-debit-merchant-surcharge-payment-cost-review/105530340 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-07-15/rba-credit-debit-merc...
- sampullman 1y ago
  I'm interested to see if that works out, and curious what it means for international cards with lots of perks. I imagine, for example, it wouldn't change anything right away for a Chase Sapphire card issued in the US, but if more countries followed suit there would eventually be a tipping point and card benefits would be reduced. I guess the issuers all have complex models that take these things into account. In any case, I think it's a good move.
itake 1y ago
The price is the same if you use cash or card. Really, after reward points, card tends to be even cheaper. Visa/Mastercard/BNPL/Klarna etc. all have negotiated discounts for consumers, paid for by the merchant. I'm skeptical that merchants would lower prices (stepping away from $x.98, etc) instead of pocketing the higher margins themselves.
- victorbjorklund 1y ago
  if all customers choose to us cash the merchant could lower price with 3%. If you are the only one paying cash then yes the price will stay the same.
  - itake 1y ago
    Why would the merchant lower the price by 3% if consumers are willing to pay the current price?
- sampullman 1y ago
  You're right that once prices have gone up, they rarely come back down. But if the price is the same, when you pay cash you're effectively subsidizing credit card reward programs, and lining Visa/Mastercard/issuer pockets.
  - itake 1y ago
    Same can be said about health insurance: private insurance negotiate lower prices than the non-insured due to collective bargaining.
Tor3 1y ago
The incentive for merchants to accept cards for payment is that it'll increase number of sales. And it does. In principle this should even out over all sales.. but cards do make it easier for consumers do purchase stuff, and I'm absolutely sure that I personally spend money way easier with a card than without (not that I spend more than I make, mind). The total number of sales go up. I haven't used cash in my home country for the last two decades, at least. I mean, CC works even on parking meters when paying half a dollar (equivalent) for a few minutes of parking, and I can use a card in flea markets and even some garage sales. Oh, I forgot: A lot of shops, restaurants, and other establishments have stopped accepting cash, even if it's illegal to do so (legal tender etc). That's because handling cash costs them MORE than handling credit/debit cards. In other words: It appears that using cards LOWER the costs for the merchant, not the other way around. EditAdd: I presume a lot of the cost saving is that paying by card is 100% electronic, just tap the card (add the pin code if it's expensive enough), and the transaction goes directly into the shop's account. With cash it's way more cumbersome. Way, way more. (Mind, there's no such thing as signing by hand anymore. If there were paperworks involved it would be different. But there aren't any, not in Europe and not in Japan anymore either)
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  > A lot of shops, restaurants, and other establishments have stopped accepting cash, even if it's illegal to do so (legal tender etc). No. This is a misunderstanding of legal tender. https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm "There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise." Legal tender only applies to debts. When you go to buy a t-shirt at Target or a burger at McDonalds, you don't owe a debt, and they aren't a creditor.
  - SJC_Hacker 1y ago
    > egal tender only applies to debts. I used to think that was true, but try paying parking fines, etc. with pennies. Legal tender has never been challenged in court to my knowledge
deleted 1y ago
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paranoidrobot 1y ago

> I think it's close to impossible to "fix" Visa without government intervention (e.g. limit fees to a fraction of a percent), but I'm still grateful to anyone who tries. This is what Australia is looking at currently: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-07-15/rba-credit-debit-merchant-surcharge-payment-cost-review/105530340 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-07-15/rba-credit-debit-merc...

sampullman 1y ago
I'm interested to see if that works out, and curious what it means for international cards with lots of perks. I imagine, for example, it wouldn't change anything right away for a Chase Sapphire card issued in the US, but if more countries followed suit there would eventually be a tipping point and card benefits would be reduced. I guess the issuers all have complex models that take these things into account. In any case, I think it's a good move.

itake 1y ago

The price is the same if you use cash or card. Really, after reward points, card tends to be even cheaper. Visa/Mastercard/BNPL/Klarna etc. all have negotiated discounts for consumers, paid for by the merchant. I'm skeptical that merchants would lower prices (stepping away from $x.98, etc) instead of pocketing the higher margins themselves.

victorbjorklund 1y ago
if all customers choose to us cash the merchant could lower price with 3%. If you are the only one paying cash then yes the price will stay the same.
- itake 1y ago
  Why would the merchant lower the price by 3% if consumers are willing to pay the current price?
sampullman 1y ago
You're right that once prices have gone up, they rarely come back down. But if the price is the same, when you pay cash you're effectively subsidizing credit card reward programs, and lining Visa/Mastercard/issuer pockets.
- itake 1y ago
  Same can be said about health insurance: private insurance negotiate lower prices than the non-insured due to collective bargaining.

Tor3 1y ago

The incentive for merchants to accept cards for payment is that it'll increase number of sales. And it does. In principle this should even out over all sales.. but cards do make it easier for consumers do purchase stuff, and I'm absolutely sure that I personally spend money way easier with a card than without (not that I spend more than I make, mind). The total number of sales go up. I haven't used cash in my home country for the last two decades, at least. I mean, CC works even on parking meters when paying half a dollar (equivalent) for a few minutes of parking, and I can use a card in flea markets and even some garage sales. Oh, I forgot: A lot of shops, restaurants, and other establishments have stopped accepting cash, even if it's illegal to do so (legal tender etc). That's because handling cash costs them MORE than handling credit/debit cards. In other words: It appears that using cards LOWER the costs for the merchant, not the other way around. EditAdd: I presume a lot of the cost saving is that paying by card is 100% electronic, just tap the card (add the pin code if it's expensive enough), and the transaction goes directly into the shop's account. With cash it's way more cumbersome. Way, way more. (Mind, there's no such thing as signing by hand anymore. If there were paperworks involved it would be different. But there aren't any, not in Europe and not in Japan anymore either)

ceejayoz 1y ago
> A lot of shops, restaurants, and other establishments have stopped accepting cash, even if it's illegal to do so (legal tender etc). No. This is a misunderstanding of legal tender. https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm "There is no federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law that says otherwise." Legal tender only applies to debts. When you go to buy a t-shirt at Target or a burger at McDonalds, you don't owe a debt, and they aren't a creditor.
- SJC_Hacker 1y ago
  > egal tender only applies to debts. I used to think that was true, but try paying parking fines, etc. with pennies. Legal tender has never been challenged in court to my knowledge

deleted 1y ago

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