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Why not auction H-1B visas? Isn't that typically the most efficient/optimal way to distribute a limited resource?
by xnx 1y ago
Why not auction H-1B visas? Isn't that typically the most efficient/optimal way to distribute a limited resource?
- HardCodedBias 1y ago100% should be the way it should be done. If there is surplus to being physically in the US, then the US should gain some of that surplus. Let the market decide. The H1B isn't charity, it is a work visa for specialty occupations.
- o11c 1y agoThe status quo is that the H-1B is a charity, given out to companies who don't want to pay what their workers are worth.
- fredfoobar 1y agoDo you have examples of these? they'd be easy targets to be sued for breaking the labor laws.
- Rebelgecko 1y agoThe WITCH companies are commonly held up as examples
- fredfoobar 1y agowho is contracting to those WITCH companies?
- Rebelgecko 1y agoNot sure, sorry!
- oldpersonintx2 1y agothere are already ways in to the US for people who want to pay Trump's "golden ticket" for example
- mdasen 1y agoI'm not the person who proposed the auction, but I read it as "let the companies compete for the H1-B visas in an auction," not about the workers buying their way into the US. For example, if CheapoCorp is looking to replace reasonably well paid US workers with H1-B workers, they won't bid much for the visas. CheapoCorp isn't trying to get good talent from overseas. They're trying to save money, push down wages, have a workforce that they can mistreat (since they can't easily leave the company given their immigration status requires employment), etc. By contrast, if a company is looking to hire great engineers or scientists from overseas because they're in a growing industry with a shortage of workers, they would be willing to pay a lot more to get the H1-B visas. They're not looking to save $20,000/year on someone's salary. They want top talent. When companies are trying to replace their workforce with lower-paid foreign workers who can't complain (lest they lose their job and with it their immigration status), that's not what the H1-B system was designed for. It certainly is how some companies are using it. If you're on an H1-B and lose your job, you have 60 days to find a new job or you're gone. That's going to make you a much more compliant employee. You have little leverage to negotiate raises, you aren't likely to quit even if they're overworking you, they can pass you over for promotions and you'll quietly accept it. But if the employer is competing in an auction for H1-B visas, they're more likely to be companies that are seeking out top talent rather than seeking out workers they can underpay and mistreat.
- Apes 1y agoIt’s not hard to imagine a loophole here: • Someone with a lot of money wants to get U.S. residency. • They set up or work with a shell company that “hires” them under the H-1B program. • That company uses part of their payment to win the visa auction. • Once in the U.S., the “employee” does whatever they want — the job is just window dressing. This is essentially what’s happened in other visa categories when money alone becomes the main filter.
- Apes 1y agoPeople want at least the appearance of a holistic process that considers a candidate’s broader value to society — even if that process isn’t perfect. An auction drops the pretense entirely and just says: pay to win.
- dgrin91 1y agoBecause then the bigtechs will buy them all and everyone else gets nothing.
- xnx 1y ago> everyone else gets nothing More revenue for the treasury and efficient allocation of resources
- dghlsakjg 1y agoCreating an artificial market around an artificial limitation that dumps cash into the government general fund is not what most economists would describe as "efficient allocation of resources". It might create a local maxima around revenue per visa, but "google bought all of the H1-Bs to make life harder for Apple" is both an entirely foreseeable outcome, and one that has such a wide range of negative externalities that even in the context of the local maxima, it would be a challenge to argue of efficient allocation of resources with a straight face (if that argument is, in fact, the goal).
- pyb 1y agoAs the meme goes: "You don't need to sell it to me, I was already convinced!"
- some_random 1y agoWould they? I know that they've engaged in a ton of wage suppression historically but deliberately paying out the nose for H1B visas seems like it wouldn't be worth it.
- _mlbt 1y agoIt’s funny how the HN hive mind is against H1-B visas and AI because they suppress their wages and take their jobs. However, the millions of unskilled illegal immigrants are a good thing, because they have that effect on the working class instead. Personally, I think we really need to take a hard look at all forms of immigration until average Americans can have good paying jobs, affordable housing, and affordable healthcare.
- slt2021 1y agoall visas will go to tech, and no visas will go to Nurses, professors, teachers, artists etc
- jdale27 1y agoIf they’re not willing to pay up, then there isn’t really a shortage.
- slt2021 1y agosame could be said of famines like the one in China or Soviet Union or ones in Africa: they simply needed to pay up for food, if they were really that hungry your logic erases nuance of the US labor market and infinity of specializations and niches, on top or large regional differences in labor market. let's just say that nurses will never be paid on par with software engineers just because it is different specialty, and it is stupid to force nurses to compete with IT for visas
- some_random 1y agoI had no idea there was a huge shortage of professors, teachers, and artists.
- slt2021 1y agothere is always a demand for a talent in the US
- some_random 1y agoOf course, and perhaps if you're having trouble with supply in famously poorly paid fields then paying better might help.
- 542458 1y agoIf we think those things have positive externalities (such that we want them to happen even if they wouldn't win an auction) we should subsidize them.
- skrtskrt 1y agoOptimal for who? These are humans not math problems
- VirusNewbie 1y agoFor the economy. We use money as a proxy for economic value.
- Apes 1y agoIt’s not even clear that an auction would be the most efficient way to allocate H-1Bs if we define efficiency as maximizing long-term economic and societal value, not just short-term revenue. An auction favors companies with deep pockets right now — meaning a startup looking to bring in a world-leading PhD in a critical field could lose out to a much larger firm simply filling headcount. That’s hardly an optimal outcome for innovation or competitiveness.
- mgh95 1y agoA "world-leading PhD in a critical field" should come under an O1-A visa (see: https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary-workers/o-1-visa-individuals-with-extraordinary-ability-or-achievement https://www.uscis.gov/working-in-the-united-states/temporary...): "O-1A: Individuals with an extraordinary ability in the sciences, education, business, or athletics (not including the arts, motion pictures or television industry)"
- Apes 1y agoThat's technically true, but I have seen PhDs hired under H1B - I've never heard of, let alone seen someone hired under the O-1A program.
- mgh95 1y agoI have met people hired under the O1-A and they fit the bill pretty neatly. Think R1 profs publishing in Nature/Science/domain equivalents. If you have exceptional talent, you can 100% get in. I think the issue is expecting a masters/phd to ensure access to th US labor market. This greatly distorts the fact that for most software engineering positions a bachelors is enough (if necessary at all), crowding the domestic market. The US should not allow the pipeline of jr->sr engs to be culled for the sake of accessing cheap foreign labor. Given the necessity of software to run the modern economy, it really is a national security issue.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- spullara 1y agoThis change basically makes it an auction.
- bluGill 1y agoI want them auctioned by how much you pay the person hired. Want top talent, a million ensures you win and they get compensated well. Want cheap labor - train someone locally as you won't win the auction. there is the downsides of what if they treat the emplopee baddly, of the emblopee commits fraud - I'm not sure how to handle that. However I still think the idea is right despite that issue.
- ethbr1 1y agoSalary based auctions would also create a perverse incentive to pressure employees for kickbacks. "We could pay you more and ensure you're able to get that visa, but then we'd need you to pay 20% of your salary back..."
- eli_gottlieb 1y agoI would simply make it illegal for employees to give money to their own employers while receiving nothing in return.
- ethbr1 1y agoThat something is illegal doesn't stop it from happening, especially at unmonitored scale.
- sashank_1509 1y agoThere will always be unscrupulous companies trying to game the system, you just need to sue them into complying. Auctioning is generally the right idea, auction and make kickbacks illegal with regulation etc. My intuition if you auction 85,000 slots in US H1b, the average H1b salary will be around 250,000$. As you reduce the slots, the average will keep going higher. Reducing or increasing the slots can depend on the labor need for the economy.
- franktankbank 1y ago> make kickbacks illegal with regulation etc Its already illegal, you just don't know how India behaves. The body shops in the US don't even behave legally in US, how are you going to get the behavior controlled in India?