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> One is Black Lotus, a Burning Man camp led by alleged rapist Brent Dill, which developed a metaphysical system based on the tabletop roleplaying game Mage the

> One is Black Lotus, a Burning Man camp led by alleged rapist Brent Dill, which developed a metaphysical system based on the tabletop roleplaying game Mage the Ascension. What the actual f. This is such an insane thing to read and understand what it means that i might need to go and sit in silence for the rest of the day. How did we get to this place with people going completely nuts like this?

optimalsolver 1y ago
astronauts_meme.jpg
linohh 1y ago
Running a cult is a somewhat reliable source of narcissistic supply. The internet tells you how to do it. So an increasing number of people do it.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
TimorousBestie 1y ago
Mage: The Ascension is basically a delusions of grandeur simulator, so I can see how an already unstable personality might get attached to it and become more unstable.
- mlinhares 1y ago
  I don't know, i'd understand something like Wraith (which I did see people developing issues, the shadow mechanic is such a terrible thing) but Mage is so, like, straightforward? Use your mind to control reality, reality fights back with paradox, its cool for a teenager but you read a bit more fantasy and you'll definitely find cooler stuff. But i guess for you to join a cult your mind must stay a teen mind forever.
  - wavefunction 1y ago
    How many adults actually abandon juvenalia as they age? Not the majority in my observation, and it's not always a bad thing when it's only applied to subjects like pop culture. Applied juvenalia in response to serious subjects is a more serious issue.
    - mlinhares 1y ago
      There has to be a cult of people that believe they’re vampires, respecting the masquerade and serving some antedeluvian somewhere, vampire was much more mainstream than mage.
    - DonHopkins 1y ago
      [dead]
  - WJW 1y ago
    I didn't originally write this, but can't find the original place I read it anymore. I think it makes a lot of sense to repost it here: All of the World Of Darkness and Chronicles Of Darkness games are basically about coming of age/puberty. Like X-Men but for Goth-Nerds instead of Geek-Nerds. In Vampire, your body is going through weird changes and you are starting to develop, physically and/or mentally, while realising that the world is run by a bunch of old, evil fools who still expect you to toe the line and stay in your place, but you are starting to wonder if the world wouldn't be better if your generation overthrew them and took over running the world, doing it the right way. And there are all these bad elements trying to convince you that you should do just that, but for the sake of mindless violence and raucous partying. Teenager - the rpg. In Werewolf, your body is going through weird changes and you are starting to develop, physically and mentally, while realising that you are not a part of the "normal" crowd that the rest of Humanity belongs to. You are different and they just can't handle that whenever it gets revealed. Luckily, there are small communities of people like you out there who take you in and show you how use the power of your "true" self. Of course, even among this community, there are different types of other. LGBT Teenager - the RPG In Mage, you have begun to take an interest in the real world, and you think you know what the world is really like. The people all around you are just sleep-walking through life, because they don't really get it. This understanding sets you against the people who run the world: the governments and the corporations, trying to stop these sleeper from waking up to the truth and rejecting their comforting lies. You have found some other people who saw through them, and you think they've got a lot of things wrong, but at least they're awake to the lies! Rebellious Teenager - the RPG
- com2kid 1y ago
  The magic system is amazing though, best I've played in any game. Easy to use, role play heavy, and it lets players go wild with ideas, but still reins in their crazier impulses. Mage: The Awakening is a minor rules revision to the magic system, but the lore is super boring in comparison IMHO. It is too wishy washy. Ascension has tons of cool source material, and White Wolf ended up tying all their properties together into one grand finale story line. That said it is all very 90s cringe in retrospect, but if you are willing to embrace the 90s retro feel, it is still fun. Awakening's lore never drew me in, the grand battle just isn't there. So many shades of grey is is damn near technicolor.
JTbane 1y ago
I don't know how you can call yourself a "rationalist" and base your worldview on a fantasy game.
- vannevar 1y ago
  "Rationalist" in this context does not mean "rational person," but rather "person who rationalizes."
- reactordev 1y ago
  Rationalizing the fantasy. Like LARPing. Only you lack weapons, armor, magic missiles…
- hungryhobbit 1y ago
  Mage is an interesting game though: it's fantasy, but not "swords and dragons" fantasy. It's set in the real world, and the "magic" is just the "mage" shifting probabilities so that unlikely (but possible) things occur. Such a setting would seem like the perfect backdrop for a cult that claims "we have the power to subtly influence reality and make improbable things (ie. "magic") occur".
- empath75 1y ago
  Most "rationalists" throughout history have been very deeply religious people. Secular enlightenment-era rationalism is not the only direction you can go with it. It depends very much, as others have said, on what your axioms are. But, fwiw, that particular role-playing game was very much based on trendy at the time occult beliefs in things like chaos magic, so it's not completely off the wall.
- ponector 1y ago
  I my experience, religious people are perfectly fine with contradicted worldview. Like christians are very flexible in following 10 commandments, always been.
  - BalinKing 1y ago
    That example isn’t a contradictory worldview though, just “people being people, and therefore failing to be as good as the ideal they claim to strive for.”
SirFatty 1y ago
Came to ask a similar question, but also has it always been like this? The difference is now these people/groups on the fringe had no visibility before the internet? It's nuts.
- lazide 1y ago
  Have you heard of Heavens Gate? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(religious_group) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(religious_g...]. There are at least a dozen I can think of, including the ‘drink the koolaid’ Jonestown massacre. People be crazy, yo.
  - SirFatty 1y ago
    Of course, Jim Jones and L Ron Hubbard, David Kersh. I realize there have always been people that are coocoo for cocoa puffs. But so many as there appear to be now?
    - tuesdaynight 1y ago
      Internet made possible to know global news all the time. I think that there have always been a lot of people with very crazy and extremist views, but we only knew about the ones closer to us. Now it's possible to know about crazy people from the other side of the planet, so it looks like there's a lot more of them than before.
      - lazide 1y ago
        Yup. Like previously, westerners could have gone their whole lives with no clue the Hindutva existed [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva] - Hindu Nazis, basically. Which if you know Hinduism at all, is a bit like saying Buddhist Nazis. Say what? Which actually kinda exised/exists too? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichirenism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichirenism], right down to an attempted coup and a bunch of assassinations [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Blood_Incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Blood_Incident]. Now you know. People be whack.
davorak 1y ago
Makes me think of that saying that great artists steal, so repurposed for cult founders: "Good cult founders copy, great cult founders steal" I do not think this cult dogma is any more out there than other cult dogma I have heard, but the above quote makes me think it is easier to found cults in modern day in someways since you can steal other complex world building from numerous sources rather building yourself and keeping everything straight.
TrackerFF 1y ago
Cult leaders tend to be narcissists. Narcissists tend to believe that they are always right, no mater what the topic is, or how knowledgeable they are. This makes them speak with confidence and conviction. Some people are very drawn to confident people. If the cult leader has other mental health issues, it can/will seep into their rhetoric. Combine that with unwavering support from loyal followers that will take everything they say as gospel... That's about it.
- TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
  That's pretty much it. The beliefs are just a cover story. Outside of those, the cult dynamics are cut-paste, and always involve an entitled narcissistic cult leader acquiring as much attention/praise, sex, money, and power as possible from the abuse and exploitation of followers. Most religion works like this. Most alternative spirituality works like this Most finance works like this. Most corporate culture works like this. Most politics works like this. Most science works like this. (It shouldn't, but the number of abused and exploited PhD students and post-docs is very much not zero.) The only variables are the differing proportions of attention/praise, sex, money, and power available to leaders, and the amount of abuse that can be delivered to those lower down and/or outside the hierarchy. The hierarchy and the realities of exploitation and abuse are a constant. If you removed this dynamic from contemporary culture there wouldn't be a lot left. Fortunately quite a lot of good things happen in spite of it. But a lot more would happen if it wasn't foundational.
- vannevar 1y ago
  Yes. The cult's "beliefs" really boil down to one belief: the infallibility of the leader. Much of the attraction is in the simplicity.
- patrickmay 1y ago
  If what you say is true, we're very lucky no one like that with a massive following has ever gotten into politics in the United States. It would be an ongoing disaster!
piva00 1y ago
I've met a fair share of people in the burner community, the vast majority I met are lovely folks who really enjoy the process of bringing some weird big idea into reality, working hard on the builds, learning stuff, and having a good time with others for months to showcase their creations at some event. On the other hand, there's a whole other side of a few nutjobs who really behave like cult leaders, they believe their own bullshit and over time manage to find in this community a lot of "followers", since one of the foundational aspects is radical acceptance it becomes very easy to be nutty and not questioned (unless you do something egregious).
greenavocado 1y ago
Humans are compelled to find agency and narrative in chaos. Evolution favored those who assumed the rustle was a predator, not the wind. In a post-Enlightenment world where traditional religion often fails (or is rejected), this drive doesn't vanish. We don't stop seeking meaning. We seek new frameworks. Our survival depended on group cohesion. Ostracism meant death. Cults exploit this primal terror. Burning Man's temporary city intensifies this: extreme environment, sensory overload, forced vulnerability. A camp like Black Lotus offers immediate, intense belonging. A tribe with shared secrets (the "Ascension" framework), rituals, and an "us vs. the sleepers" mentality. This isn't just social; it's neurochemical. Oxytocin (bonding) and cortisol (stress from the environment) flood the system, creating powerful, addictive bonds that override critical thought. Human brains are lazy Bayesian engines. In uncertainty, we grasp for simple, all-explaining models (heuristics). Mage provides this: a complete ontology where magic equals psychology/quantum woo, reality is malleable, and the camp leaders are the enlightened "tradition." This offers relief from the exhausting ambiguity of real life. Dill didn't invent this; he plugged into the ancient human craving for a map that makes the world feel navigable and controllable. The "rationalist" veneer is pure camouflage. It feels like critical thinking but is actually pseudo-intellectual cargo culting. This isn't Burning Man's fault. It's the latest step of a 2,500-year-old playbook. The Gnostics and the Hermeticists provided ancient frameworks where secret knowledge ("gnosis") granted power over reality, accessible only through a guru. Mage directly borrows from this lineage (The Technocracy, The Traditions). Dill positioned himself as the modern "Ascended Master" dispensing this gnosis. The 20th century cults Synanon, EST, Moonies, NXIVM all followed similar patterns, starting with isolation. Burning Man's temporary city is the perfect isolation chamber. It's physically remote, temporally bounded (a "liminal space"), fostering dependence on the camp. Initial overwhelming acceptance and belonging (the "Burning Man hug"), then slowly increasing demands (time, money, emotional disclosure, sexual access), framed as "spiritual growth" or "breaking through barriers" (directly lifted from Mage's "Paradigm Shifts" and "Quintessence"). Control language ("sleeper," "muggle," "Awakened"), redefining reality ("that rape wasn't really rape, it was a necessary 'Paradox' to break your illusions"), demanding confession of "sins" (past traumas, doubts), creating dependency on the leader for "truth." Burning Man attracts people seeking transformation, often carrying unresolved pain. Cults prey on this vulnerability. Dill allegedly targeted individuals with trauma histories. Trauma creates cognitive dissonance and a desperate need for resolution. The cult's narrative (Mage's framework + Dill's interpretation) offers a simple explanation for their pain ("you're unAwakened," "you have Paradox blocking you") and a path out ("submit to me, undergo these rituals"). This isn't therapy; it's trauma bonding weaponized. The alleged rape wasn't an aberration; it was likely part of the control mechanism. It's a "shock" to induce dependency and reframe the victim's reality ("this pain is necessary enlightenment"). People are adrift in ontological insecurity (fear about the fundamental nature of reality and self). Mage offers a new grand narrative with clear heroes (Awakened), villains (sleepers, Technocracy), and a path (Ascension).
gedy 1y ago
Paraphrasing someone I don't recall - when people believe in nothing, they'll believe anything.
- collingreen 1y ago
  And therefore you should believe in me and my low low 10% tithe! That's the only way to not get tricked into believing something wrong so don't delay!
  - gedy 1y ago
    That's not an endorsement of a particular religion.
    - lmm 1y ago
      It is though. In practice it's always used to promote a particular religion.
pstuart 1y ago
People are wired to worship, and want somebody in charge telling them what to do. I'm a staunch atheist and I feel the pull all the time.
- hn_acc1 1y ago
  I slowly deconverted from being raised evangelical / fundamentalist into being an atheist in my late 40s. I still "pray" at times just to (mentally) shout my frustration at the sorry state of the world at SOMETHING (even nothing) rather than constantly yelling my frustration at my family. I may have actually been less anxious about the state of the world back then, and may have remained so, if I'd just continued to ignore all those little contradictions that I just couldn't ignore anymore...... But I feel SO MUCH less personal guilt about being "human".
Nihilartikel 1y ago
I'm entertaining sending my kiddo to a Waldorf School, because it genuinely seems pretty good. But looking into the underlying Western Esoteric Spirit Science, 'Anthroposophy' (because Theosophy wouldn't let him get weird enough) by Rudolph Steiner, has been quite a ride. The point being that.. humans have a pretty endless capacity to go ALL IN on REALLY WEIRD shit, as long as it promises to fix their lives if they do everything they're told. Naturally if their lives aren't fixed, then they did it wrong or have karmic debt to pay down, so YMMV. In any case, I'm considering the latent woo-cult atmosphere as a test of the skeptical inoculation that I've tried to raise my child with.
- BryantD 1y ago
  I went to a Waldorf school and I’d recommend being really wary. The woo is sort of background noise, and if you’ve raised your kid well they’ll be fine. But the quality of the academics may not be good at all. For example, when I was ready for calculus my school didn’t have anyone who knew how to teach it so they stuck me and the other bright kid in a classroom with a textbook and told us to figure it out. As a side effect of not being challenged, I didn’t have good study habits going into college, which hurt me a lot. If you’re talking about grade school, interview whoever is gonna be your kids teacher for the next X years and make sure they seem sane. If you’re talking about high school, give a really critical look at the class schedule. Waldorf schools can vary a lot in this regard so you may not encounter the same problems I did, but it’s good to be cautious.
- linohh 1y ago
  Don't do it. It's a place that enables child abuse with its culture. These people are serious wackos and you should not give your kid into their hands. A lot of people come out of that Steiner Shitbox traumatized for decades if not for life. They should not be allowed to run schools to begin with. Checking a lot of boxes from antivax to whatever the fuck their lore has to offer starting with a z.
namuol 1y ago
> How did we get to this place with people going completely nuts like this? Ayahuasca?
- yamazakiwi 1y ago
  Nah I did Ayahuasca and I'm an empathetic person who most would consider normal or at least well-adjusted. If it's drug related it would most definitely be something else. I’m inclined to believe your upbringing plays a much larger role.
rglover 1y ago
I came to comments first. Thank you for sharing this quote. Gave me a solid chuckle. I think people are going nuts because we've drifted from the dock of a stable civilization. Institutions are a mess. Economy is a mess. Combine all of that together with the advent of social media making the creation of echo chambers (and the inevitable narcissism of "leaders" in those echo chambers) effortless and ~15 years later, we have this.
- staunton 1y ago
  People have been going nuts all throughout recorded history, that's really nothing new. The only scary thing is that they have ever more power to change the world and influence others without being forced to grapple with that responsibility...
- rsynnott 1y ago
  > I think people are going nuts because we've drifted from the dock of a stable civilization. When was stable period, exactly? I'm 40; the only semi-stable bit I can think of in my lifetime was a few years in the 90s (referred to, sometimes unironically, as "the end of history" at the time, before history decided to come out of retirement). Everything's always been unstable, people sometimes just take a slightly rose-tinted view of the past.
  - AnonymousPlanet 1y ago
    > Everything's always been unstable, people sometimes just take a slightly rose-tinted view of the past. No. For the most of history people could look decades into the past and be quite confident that things would be the same decades in the future. The only aspects that mostly changed were local leaders and maybe some fashions. A farmer was a farmer and a carpenter was a carpenter and their sons and grandsons likely too. Ever changing times with regards to technology and professions is a rather modern thing.
TacticalCoder 1y ago
[dead]
eli_gottlieb 1y ago
Who the fuck bases a Black Lotus cult on Mage: the Ascension rather than Magic: the Gathering? Is this just a mistake by the journalist?
- kiitos 1y ago
  i regret that i have but one upvote to give
AnimalMuppet 1y ago
From false premises, you can logically and rationally reach really wrong conclusions. If you have too much pride in your rationality, you may not be willing to say "I seem to have reached a really insane conclusion, maybe my premises are wrong". That is, the more you pride yourself on your rationalism, the more prone you may be to accepting a bogus conclusion if it is bogus because the premises are wrong.
- DangitBobby 1y ago
  Then again, most people tend to form really bogus beliefs without bothering to establish any premises. They may not even be internally consistent or align meaningfully with reality. I imagine having premises and thinking it through has a better track record of reaching conclusions consistent with reality.
  - lmm 1y ago
    > I imagine having premises and thinking it through has a better track record of reaching conclusions consistent with reality. Why do you imagine that? Have you tested it?
  - Viliam1234 1y ago
    > I imagine having premises and thinking it through has a better track record of reaching conclusions consistent with reality. You only need to make one mistake in the entire chain of reasoning to get a wrong result. Mathematically speaking, if your total probability of making even one mistake somewhere in the chain is 50% or greater, the result is still a coinflip. Success is a combination of reducing your error rate, keeping your chains of reasoning short, and verifying the intermediate results empirically.
bitwize 1y ago
It's been like this a while. Have you heard the tale of the Final Fantasy House?: http://www.demon-sushi.com/warning/ http://www.demon-sushi.com/warning/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-tale-of-the-final-fantasy-vii-house-is-a-window-into-the-dark-side-of-cosplay-529/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-tale-of-the-final-fantas...
egypturnash 1y ago
I've always been under the impression that M:tA's rules of How Magic Works are inspired by actual mystical beliefs that people have practiced for centuries. It's probably about as much of a magical for mystical development as the GURPS Cyberpunk rulebook was for cybercrime but it's pointing at something that already exists and saying "this is a thing we are going to tell an exaggerated story about". See for example "Reality Distortion Field": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field
GeoAtreides 1y ago
>How did we get to this place with people going completely nuts like this? God died and it's been rough going since then.

optimalsolver 1y ago

astronauts_meme.jpg

linohh 1y ago

Running a cult is a somewhat reliable source of narcissistic supply. The internet tells you how to do it. So an increasing number of people do it.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

TimorousBestie 1y ago

Mage: The Ascension is basically a delusions of grandeur simulator, so I can see how an already unstable personality might get attached to it and become more unstable.

mlinhares 1y ago
I don't know, i'd understand something like Wraith (which I did see people developing issues, the shadow mechanic is such a terrible thing) but Mage is so, like, straightforward? Use your mind to control reality, reality fights back with paradox, its cool for a teenager but you read a bit more fantasy and you'll definitely find cooler stuff. But i guess for you to join a cult your mind must stay a teen mind forever.
- wavefunction 1y ago
  How many adults actually abandon juvenalia as they age? Not the majority in my observation, and it's not always a bad thing when it's only applied to subjects like pop culture. Applied juvenalia in response to serious subjects is a more serious issue.
  - mlinhares 1y ago
    There has to be a cult of people that believe they’re vampires, respecting the masquerade and serving some antedeluvian somewhere, vampire was much more mainstream than mage.
  - DonHopkins 1y ago
    [dead]
- WJW 1y ago
  I didn't originally write this, but can't find the original place I read it anymore. I think it makes a lot of sense to repost it here: All of the World Of Darkness and Chronicles Of Darkness games are basically about coming of age/puberty. Like X-Men but for Goth-Nerds instead of Geek-Nerds. In Vampire, your body is going through weird changes and you are starting to develop, physically and/or mentally, while realising that the world is run by a bunch of old, evil fools who still expect you to toe the line and stay in your place, but you are starting to wonder if the world wouldn't be better if your generation overthrew them and took over running the world, doing it the right way. And there are all these bad elements trying to convince you that you should do just that, but for the sake of mindless violence and raucous partying. Teenager - the rpg. In Werewolf, your body is going through weird changes and you are starting to develop, physically and mentally, while realising that you are not a part of the "normal" crowd that the rest of Humanity belongs to. You are different and they just can't handle that whenever it gets revealed. Luckily, there are small communities of people like you out there who take you in and show you how use the power of your "true" self. Of course, even among this community, there are different types of other. LGBT Teenager - the RPG In Mage, you have begun to take an interest in the real world, and you think you know what the world is really like. The people all around you are just sleep-walking through life, because they don't really get it. This understanding sets you against the people who run the world: the governments and the corporations, trying to stop these sleeper from waking up to the truth and rejecting their comforting lies. You have found some other people who saw through them, and you think they've got a lot of things wrong, but at least they're awake to the lies! Rebellious Teenager - the RPG
com2kid 1y ago
The magic system is amazing though, best I've played in any game. Easy to use, role play heavy, and it lets players go wild with ideas, but still reins in their crazier impulses. Mage: The Awakening is a minor rules revision to the magic system, but the lore is super boring in comparison IMHO. It is too wishy washy. Ascension has tons of cool source material, and White Wolf ended up tying all their properties together into one grand finale story line. That said it is all very 90s cringe in retrospect, but if you are willing to embrace the 90s retro feel, it is still fun. Awakening's lore never drew me in, the grand battle just isn't there. So many shades of grey is is damn near technicolor.

JTbane 1y ago

I don't know how you can call yourself a "rationalist" and base your worldview on a fantasy game.

vannevar 1y ago
"Rationalist" in this context does not mean "rational person," but rather "person who rationalizes."
reactordev 1y ago
Rationalizing the fantasy. Like LARPing. Only you lack weapons, armor, magic missiles…
hungryhobbit 1y ago
Mage is an interesting game though: it's fantasy, but not "swords and dragons" fantasy. It's set in the real world, and the "magic" is just the "mage" shifting probabilities so that unlikely (but possible) things occur. Such a setting would seem like the perfect backdrop for a cult that claims "we have the power to subtly influence reality and make improbable things (ie. "magic") occur".
empath75 1y ago
Most "rationalists" throughout history have been very deeply religious people. Secular enlightenment-era rationalism is not the only direction you can go with it. It depends very much, as others have said, on what your axioms are. But, fwiw, that particular role-playing game was very much based on trendy at the time occult beliefs in things like chaos magic, so it's not completely off the wall.
ponector 1y ago
I my experience, religious people are perfectly fine with contradicted worldview. Like christians are very flexible in following 10 commandments, always been.
- BalinKing 1y ago
  That example isn’t a contradictory worldview though, just “people being people, and therefore failing to be as good as the ideal they claim to strive for.”

SirFatty 1y ago

Came to ask a similar question, but also has it always been like this? The difference is now these people/groups on the fringe had no visibility before the internet? It's nuts.

lazide 1y ago
Have you heard of Heavens Gate? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(religious_group) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_(religious_g...]. There are at least a dozen I can think of, including the ‘drink the koolaid’ Jonestown massacre. People be crazy, yo.
- SirFatty 1y ago
  Of course, Jim Jones and L Ron Hubbard, David Kersh. I realize there have always been people that are coocoo for cocoa puffs. But so many as there appear to be now?
  - tuesdaynight 1y ago
    Internet made possible to know global news all the time. I think that there have always been a lot of people with very crazy and extremist views, but we only knew about the ones closer to us. Now it's possible to know about crazy people from the other side of the planet, so it looks like there's a lot more of them than before.
    - lazide 1y ago
      Yup. Like previously, westerners could have gone their whole lives with no clue the Hindutva existed [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindutva] - Hindu Nazis, basically. Which if you know Hinduism at all, is a bit like saying Buddhist Nazis. Say what? Which actually kinda exised/exists too? [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichirenism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nichirenism], right down to an attempted coup and a bunch of assassinations [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Blood_Incident https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Blood_Incident]. Now you know. People be whack.

davorak 1y ago

Makes me think of that saying that great artists steal, so repurposed for cult founders: "Good cult founders copy, great cult founders steal" I do not think this cult dogma is any more out there than other cult dogma I have heard, but the above quote makes me think it is easier to found cults in modern day in someways since you can steal other complex world building from numerous sources rather building yourself and keeping everything straight.

TrackerFF 1y ago

Cult leaders tend to be narcissists. Narcissists tend to believe that they are always right, no mater what the topic is, or how knowledgeable they are. This makes them speak with confidence and conviction. Some people are very drawn to confident people. If the cult leader has other mental health issues, it can/will seep into their rhetoric. Combine that with unwavering support from loyal followers that will take everything they say as gospel... That's about it.

TheOtherHobbes 1y ago
That's pretty much it. The beliefs are just a cover story. Outside of those, the cult dynamics are cut-paste, and always involve an entitled narcissistic cult leader acquiring as much attention/praise, sex, money, and power as possible from the abuse and exploitation of followers. Most religion works like this. Most alternative spirituality works like this Most finance works like this. Most corporate culture works like this. Most politics works like this. Most science works like this. (It shouldn't, but the number of abused and exploited PhD students and post-docs is very much not zero.) The only variables are the differing proportions of attention/praise, sex, money, and power available to leaders, and the amount of abuse that can be delivered to those lower down and/or outside the hierarchy. The hierarchy and the realities of exploitation and abuse are a constant. If you removed this dynamic from contemporary culture there wouldn't be a lot left. Fortunately quite a lot of good things happen in spite of it. But a lot more would happen if it wasn't foundational.
vannevar 1y ago
Yes. The cult's "beliefs" really boil down to one belief: the infallibility of the leader. Much of the attraction is in the simplicity.
patrickmay 1y ago
If what you say is true, we're very lucky no one like that with a massive following has ever gotten into politics in the United States. It would be an ongoing disaster!

piva00 1y ago

I've met a fair share of people in the burner community, the vast majority I met are lovely folks who really enjoy the process of bringing some weird big idea into reality, working hard on the builds, learning stuff, and having a good time with others for months to showcase their creations at some event. On the other hand, there's a whole other side of a few nutjobs who really behave like cult leaders, they believe their own bullshit and over time manage to find in this community a lot of "followers", since one of the foundational aspects is radical acceptance it becomes very easy to be nutty and not questioned (unless you do something egregious).

greenavocado 1y ago

Humans are compelled to find agency and narrative in chaos. Evolution favored those who assumed the rustle was a predator, not the wind. In a post-Enlightenment world where traditional religion often fails (or is rejected), this drive doesn't vanish. We don't stop seeking meaning. We seek new frameworks. Our survival depended on group cohesion. Ostracism meant death. Cults exploit this primal terror. Burning Man's temporary city intensifies this: extreme environment, sensory overload, forced vulnerability. A camp like Black Lotus offers immediate, intense belonging. A tribe with shared secrets (the "Ascension" framework), rituals, and an "us vs. the sleepers" mentality. This isn't just social; it's neurochemical. Oxytocin (bonding) and cortisol (stress from the environment) flood the system, creating powerful, addictive bonds that override critical thought. Human brains are lazy Bayesian engines. In uncertainty, we grasp for simple, all-explaining models (heuristics). Mage provides this: a complete ontology where magic equals psychology/quantum woo, reality is malleable, and the camp leaders are the enlightened "tradition." This offers relief from the exhausting ambiguity of real life. Dill didn't invent this; he plugged into the ancient human craving for a map that makes the world feel navigable and controllable. The "rationalist" veneer is pure camouflage. It feels like critical thinking but is actually pseudo-intellectual cargo culting. This isn't Burning Man's fault. It's the latest step of a 2,500-year-old playbook. The Gnostics and the Hermeticists provided ancient frameworks where secret knowledge ("gnosis") granted power over reality, accessible only through a guru. Mage directly borrows from this lineage (The Technocracy, The Traditions). Dill positioned himself as the modern "Ascended Master" dispensing this gnosis. The 20th century cults Synanon, EST, Moonies, NXIVM all followed similar patterns, starting with isolation. Burning Man's temporary city is the perfect isolation chamber. It's physically remote, temporally bounded (a "liminal space"), fostering dependence on the camp. Initial overwhelming acceptance and belonging (the "Burning Man hug"), then slowly increasing demands (time, money, emotional disclosure, sexual access), framed as "spiritual growth" or "breaking through barriers" (directly lifted from Mage's "Paradigm Shifts" and "Quintessence"). Control language ("sleeper," "muggle," "Awakened"), redefining reality ("that rape wasn't really rape, it was a necessary 'Paradox' to break your illusions"), demanding confession of "sins" (past traumas, doubts), creating dependency on the leader for "truth." Burning Man attracts people seeking transformation, often carrying unresolved pain. Cults prey on this vulnerability. Dill allegedly targeted individuals with trauma histories. Trauma creates cognitive dissonance and a desperate need for resolution. The cult's narrative (Mage's framework + Dill's interpretation) offers a simple explanation for their pain ("you're unAwakened," "you have Paradox blocking you") and a path out ("submit to me, undergo these rituals"). This isn't therapy; it's trauma bonding weaponized. The alleged rape wasn't an aberration; it was likely part of the control mechanism. It's a "shock" to induce dependency and reframe the victim's reality ("this pain is necessary enlightenment"). People are adrift in ontological insecurity (fear about the fundamental nature of reality and self). Mage offers a new grand narrative with clear heroes (Awakened), villains (sleepers, Technocracy), and a path (Ascension).

gedy 1y ago

Paraphrasing someone I don't recall - when people believe in nothing, they'll believe anything.

collingreen 1y ago
And therefore you should believe in me and my low low 10% tithe! That's the only way to not get tricked into believing something wrong so don't delay!
- gedy 1y ago
  That's not an endorsement of a particular religion.
  - lmm 1y ago
    It is though. In practice it's always used to promote a particular religion.

pstuart 1y ago

People are wired to worship, and want somebody in charge telling them what to do. I'm a staunch atheist and I feel the pull all the time.

hn_acc1 1y ago
I slowly deconverted from being raised evangelical / fundamentalist into being an atheist in my late 40s. I still "pray" at times just to (mentally) shout my frustration at the sorry state of the world at SOMETHING (even nothing) rather than constantly yelling my frustration at my family. I may have actually been less anxious about the state of the world back then, and may have remained so, if I'd just continued to ignore all those little contradictions that I just couldn't ignore anymore...... But I feel SO MUCH less personal guilt about being "human".

Nihilartikel 1y ago

I'm entertaining sending my kiddo to a Waldorf School, because it genuinely seems pretty good. But looking into the underlying Western Esoteric Spirit Science, 'Anthroposophy' (because Theosophy wouldn't let him get weird enough) by Rudolph Steiner, has been quite a ride. The point being that.. humans have a pretty endless capacity to go ALL IN on REALLY WEIRD shit, as long as it promises to fix their lives if they do everything they're told. Naturally if their lives aren't fixed, then they did it wrong or have karmic debt to pay down, so YMMV. In any case, I'm considering the latent woo-cult atmosphere as a test of the skeptical inoculation that I've tried to raise my child with.

BryantD 1y ago
I went to a Waldorf school and I’d recommend being really wary. The woo is sort of background noise, and if you’ve raised your kid well they’ll be fine. But the quality of the academics may not be good at all. For example, when I was ready for calculus my school didn’t have anyone who knew how to teach it so they stuck me and the other bright kid in a classroom with a textbook and told us to figure it out. As a side effect of not being challenged, I didn’t have good study habits going into college, which hurt me a lot. If you’re talking about grade school, interview whoever is gonna be your kids teacher for the next X years and make sure they seem sane. If you’re talking about high school, give a really critical look at the class schedule. Waldorf schools can vary a lot in this regard so you may not encounter the same problems I did, but it’s good to be cautious.
linohh 1y ago
Don't do it. It's a place that enables child abuse with its culture. These people are serious wackos and you should not give your kid into their hands. A lot of people come out of that Steiner Shitbox traumatized for decades if not for life. They should not be allowed to run schools to begin with. Checking a lot of boxes from antivax to whatever the fuck their lore has to offer starting with a z.

namuol 1y ago

> How did we get to this place with people going completely nuts like this? Ayahuasca?

yamazakiwi 1y ago
Nah I did Ayahuasca and I'm an empathetic person who most would consider normal or at least well-adjusted. If it's drug related it would most definitely be something else. I’m inclined to believe your upbringing plays a much larger role.

rglover 1y ago

I came to comments first. Thank you for sharing this quote. Gave me a solid chuckle. I think people are going nuts because we've drifted from the dock of a stable civilization. Institutions are a mess. Economy is a mess. Combine all of that together with the advent of social media making the creation of echo chambers (and the inevitable narcissism of "leaders" in those echo chambers) effortless and ~15 years later, we have this.

staunton 1y ago
People have been going nuts all throughout recorded history, that's really nothing new. The only scary thing is that they have ever more power to change the world and influence others without being forced to grapple with that responsibility...
rsynnott 1y ago
> I think people are going nuts because we've drifted from the dock of a stable civilization. When was stable period, exactly? I'm 40; the only semi-stable bit I can think of in my lifetime was a few years in the 90s (referred to, sometimes unironically, as "the end of history" at the time, before history decided to come out of retirement). Everything's always been unstable, people sometimes just take a slightly rose-tinted view of the past.
- AnonymousPlanet 1y ago
  > Everything's always been unstable, people sometimes just take a slightly rose-tinted view of the past. No. For the most of history people could look decades into the past and be quite confident that things would be the same decades in the future. The only aspects that mostly changed were local leaders and maybe some fashions. A farmer was a farmer and a carpenter was a carpenter and their sons and grandsons likely too. Ever changing times with regards to technology and professions is a rather modern thing.

TacticalCoder 1y ago

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eli_gottlieb 1y ago

Who the fuck bases a Black Lotus cult on Mage: the Ascension rather than Magic: the Gathering? Is this just a mistake by the journalist?

kiitos 1y ago
i regret that i have but one upvote to give

AnimalMuppet 1y ago

From false premises, you can logically and rationally reach really wrong conclusions. If you have too much pride in your rationality, you may not be willing to say "I seem to have reached a really insane conclusion, maybe my premises are wrong". That is, the more you pride yourself on your rationalism, the more prone you may be to accepting a bogus conclusion if it is bogus because the premises are wrong.

DangitBobby 1y ago
Then again, most people tend to form really bogus beliefs without bothering to establish any premises. They may not even be internally consistent or align meaningfully with reality. I imagine having premises and thinking it through has a better track record of reaching conclusions consistent with reality.
- lmm 1y ago
  > I imagine having premises and thinking it through has a better track record of reaching conclusions consistent with reality. Why do you imagine that? Have you tested it?
- Viliam1234 1y ago
  > I imagine having premises and thinking it through has a better track record of reaching conclusions consistent with reality. You only need to make one mistake in the entire chain of reasoning to get a wrong result. Mathematically speaking, if your total probability of making even one mistake somewhere in the chain is 50% or greater, the result is still a coinflip. Success is a combination of reducing your error rate, keeping your chains of reasoning short, and verifying the intermediate results empirically.

bitwize 1y ago

It's been like this a while. Have you heard the tale of the Final Fantasy House?: http://www.demon-sushi.com/warning/ http://www.demon-sushi.com/warning/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-tale-of-the-final-fantasy-vii-house-is-a-window-into-the-dark-side-of-cosplay-529/ https://www.vice.com/en/article/the-tale-of-the-final-fantas...

egypturnash 1y ago

I've always been under the impression that M:tA's rules of How Magic Works are inspired by actual mystical beliefs that people have practiced for centuries. It's probably about as much of a magical for mystical development as the GURPS Cyberpunk rulebook was for cybercrime but it's pointing at something that already exists and saying "this is a thing we are going to tell an exaggerated story about". See for example "Reality Distortion Field": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_distortion_field

GeoAtreides 1y ago

>How did we get to this place with people going completely nuts like this? God died and it's been rough going since then.