27 ms·

Vanishing from Hyundai’s data network

432 points by pilingual 1y ago

zdw 1y ago
I'm fearing the day when my quite old ICE car dies and I end up in a situation where the best option is a newer car that is a computer on wheels running software that I know will stop getting updates very quickly. Of all the new cars ideas I've seen recently, only the Slate mini-truck seems to be taking a minimalist approach, with no fancy head unit or navigation system.
- Terr_ 1y ago
  I'm hopeful that stuff like Android Auto or Apple CarPlay will continue moving some of the risky obsolete-able complexity away of the giant expensive machine I plan to keep for over a decade (the car) and into smaller easier-to-replace ones (my smartphone.) A quick outline for those who haven't used them: The car's head-display becomes mostly-controlled by your phone, which is what supplies any navigation, music, podcasts, address-book, GPS, cellular data-connection, etc. Meanwhile the car focuses on providing the display/touchpad hardware, inputs from steering-wheel controls, and maybe AM/FM radio modes. With the right vehicles/adapters I don't even need to take my phone out of my pocket, which is great because then I can't forget it in the car.
  - dangus 1y ago
    This is not the direction that the software is going in. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/05/carplay-ultra-the-next-generation-of-carplay-begins-rolling-out-today/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/05/carplay-ultra-the-nex...
    - compootr 1y ago
      fascinating idea, but no mention of android. Would one (like me!) simply be unable to use this car to its full extent?
    - mook 1y ago
      CarPlay Ultra sounds like it's extending it further? That is, it's still essentially VNC† with some data fed from the car and rendered by the phone, but now with multi-monitor support. † it's more complicated than that, but still a dumb framebuffer.
      - poink 1y ago
        This is what I hoped for but based on the Ultra implementation in the Astons is not at all what we’re getting It seems to require pretty deep integration with the automaker (Aston provides a lot of custom visuals), and based on the available third party reviews it doesn’t work as well as you’d suspect for a flagship integration
      - bayindirh 1y ago
        > but still a dumb framebuffer. Nope. Your car and phone exchanges some info, too. Like serial numbers, some real time telemetry data, etc.
      - echoangle 1y ago
        I can't imagine that the image shown in CarPlay Ultra is still rendered on the phone. It's used to show all driving relevant things (speed etc.). Is a wireless connection to the phone reliable enough so this would be allowed by regulators? I thought the main image would be rendered on the car using local data and only the entertainment stuff is transferred from the phone. And also, how would you drive your car without the phone if everything is rendered on the phone? Would they implement an entire backup dashboard for this? I thought it would always show the CarPlay Ultra interface, even when no phone is connected.
        ToucanLoucan 1y ago
        > I can't imagine that the image shown in CarPlay Ultra is still rendered on the phone. It's used to show all driving relevant things (speed etc.). Is a wireless connection to the phone reliable enough so this would be allowed by regulators? I have some understanding of this being someone who has installed way too many aftermarket head units, and as best I can tell, all the rendering indeed occurs on the phone. The CarPlay experience is virtually identical across all the units I've tested on, from my stock '18 Corvette unit, through 4 or 5 ones I've shuffled through in my F-150, and through 2 or 3 through my Chrysler 300. Apart from display size and density, there is no difference at all in all these CarPlay units. They function identically. The phone also gets notably warm even just playing music which is part of why I strongly suspect all of that is phone-side activity at play with the dash just providing a resolution/density combo and touch inputs. > Would they implement an entire backup dashboard for this? Correct, if my research is to be believed. There's a stock OEM OS look to everything in line with each brand's visual designs, which is then swapped out to whatever degree they feel like exposing to CarPlay Ultra, at which point it's reskinned in Apple's look. I don't own any vehicles new enough for this, but it's pretty cool if it works. That said I'm less a fan of everything being a display. For gauges and such I do prefer physical gauges.
  - zevon 1y ago
    This is a bit of a two-edged sword. I kind of doubt that Carplay and Android Auto will keep working with new phones as long as a car can. At which point you will end up with an old smartphone in your car or some workaround like that.
    - rimunroe 1y ago
      Has this ever happened with CarPlay? As far as I know, even if your car was made in 2013 when CarPlay was first released it should continue to work just fine with the newest iPhones. If you plug the latest iPhone into your 2013 car, you would see the latest version of CarPlay pop up on the screen. I know there's a new version of CarPlay which requires support from the car maker, but I think CarPlay support is a binary matter of if the car supports CarPlay at all. I'd hope they'd design the system such that it wouldn't become obsolete over the average lifespan of the vehicle.
      - bluGill 1y ago
        I would hope so, but I don't trust computer makers. There are people who still use cars made in the 1960s as their daily driver (probably only a handful in the US). Most parts are still available, and if not you can make them in your garage with affordable tools (metal lathes are rare but not unheard of in a home shop). Apple switch to OSX, m68k to PPC to x86 (ARM is in progress). I had the first android phone - the apps I bought for it back then are not on installable on my current phone (most haven't very modified from what I ran back then). If I had a copy I could still run Office 97 on a modern windows 11 machine - or so I'm told - but nobody will know how to inter change files with me. My company has had to redesign perfectly good embedded controllers just because the chips are not made anymore.
        philistine 1y ago
        On the other hand, Apple is quick to get rid of old APIs in their software, but they consider features sacrosanct. Only this Fall will macOS lose support for Firewire, which finally means that we have a version of macOS that doesn't support the first iPod. Which came out in 2001. All the USB iPods will still connect and sync.
  - exabrial 1y ago
    This was vehicles made in 2018. I’m trying to keep mine alive as long as possible.
  - eitally 1y ago
    I posted this above, but in new Lexus RX models at least, the Lexus vehicle management software trumps the AA interface so you're forced to setup their mobile app if you want to use AA (for things like navigation). On a related note, the Bluetooth stack in my F150 doesn't work very well with phone calls. I can place calls fine, but receiving calls will not route them through vehicle audio. I have to turn on speaker phone to participate. It's a known problem "won't fix" from Ford, regardless of the fact that they've sold millions of these trucks (mine is a 2017 and has never worked).
    - grepfru_it 1y ago
      That sounds like sync 3.. there was a known problem with Bluetooth connectivity but there was a fairly easy way to fix it. I cannot remember but I will look at my ford vehicle tonight for what I did
    - slumberlust 1y ago
      They want their hands on that juicy data that Google and apple are getting. It's why GMC opted to make their own instead, and why you have to jump through their hoops first.
  - foobarian 1y ago
    I can't figure out why car manufacturers insist on building whole parallel universes of UIs, media apps, nav apps et cetera. Doesn't it cost a ton? Do people actually use/want this stuff?
    - AlexandrB 1y ago
      The why is pretty simple: they want recurring revenue. What the customer wants is secondary.
      - Version467 1y ago
        And insisting on building their own mediocre ui helps them achieve that how exactly? Maybe I'm just super out of touch on how people use their cars, but my cars infotainment system has not made its manufacturer any additional money as far as I can tell.
        aprilthird2021 1y ago
        Once you have the data the money can be figured out later. You can figure out how people use the car and what features matter to them and upsell or upcharge for those features in the next line. You can cross-advertise (oh you listen to music when driving here's Spotify deal through us and behind-the-scenes we get a cut for lead generation to Spotify). You can use the information to defend in lawsuits. Oh our car is faulty leading to accidents? But all these people were fiddling with the unit before crashing. Also if you control the platform you can sell integration spots to companies. I know my old BMW had a specific separate path to connect Spotify on your phone to car, no other audio app. There's surely other ways I haven't thought of. The investment pays off later IF you get the data, but CarPlay and Android Auto have really mucked that gambit up for the car makers
        jonbiggums22 1y ago
        Don't forget selling the driving data to insurance companies, private investigators, law enforcement, etc.
  - Wistar 1y ago
    GM, at least on their new Equinox EV, no longer supports either Apple CarPlay or Android Auto electing instead to provide only the Google built-in infotainment system and apps. I discovered this just yesterday while researching the Equinox for a friend. She is no longer interested in the Equinox despite her loving its looks.
    - hexyl_C_gut 1y ago
      For some reason, they still get CarPlay outside of US. https://www.thedrive.com/news/gm-evs-will-get-apple-carplay-after-all-but-only-outside-the-us https://www.thedrive.com/news/gm-evs-will-get-apple-carplay-...
- layoric 1y ago
  Same, early 2010s IMO seems to be the point where the industry really started to shift. There are some good cars from before this time, but keep them running past the 2030s will be a challenge.
  - userbinator 1y ago
    There are some good cars from before this time, but keep them running past the 2030s will be a challenge. If it's a pre-computer car, all you need is a machine shop or access to one.
  - flomo 1y ago
    This problem solved itself on my car because it only has a 3G modem.
    - bestham 1y ago
      On an adjacent theme there has been a large debate in Sweden if a car that has mandated automatic eCall over 2G or 3G is faulty and thus not roadworthy if the 2G and 3G networks are turned off. The eCall feature was introduced broadly in 2018. It still uses modem sounds over a voice phone call to relay car emergency status and position. New solutions for packet only networks (4g and 5G) have been standardised but are not retrofitted to older cars.
      - potato3732842 1y ago
        There's, broadly speaking, two ways this can go. The first way this can go is that the people with a stake in selling cars (dealers, OEMs, etc) get their lobbyists leaning on the politicians and get it rammed through. The second is that the issue gets delayed long enough that the number of older vehicles it applies to goes down out of attrition and it's not worth fighting over. Considering the cultural disposition of the nordics when it comes to matters like this I expect the first option to be chosen. There will enough people hand wringing about safety and whatnot to provide the political lubricant to ensure the first outcome.
      - toast0 1y ago
- gonzo41 1y ago
  Consider an electric cargo bike if you're life will suite it.
  - zevon 1y ago
    It may be easy to get a simple(ish) one now, but there are already a lot of e-bikes out there with "smarts", apps, vendor-lock-ins up the wazoo, cellular connection and the like. If electric cargo bikes ever go mainstream, I expect the majority of them will be techifyed in the same vein as the Hyundai the author wrote about.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - MetaWhirledPeas 1y ago
    > Consider an electric cargo bike if you're life will suite it. Don't they have proprietary batteries? So you're out of luck at end-of-life if that company still isn't in business. And if a part fails are there replacements? I'll give you the price is cheap. But if we're just looking for cheap then OP has nothing to worry about. There's cheap transportation in a variety of forms if you buy used.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      I ride such a bike, and I would no longer call it cheap - the range/speed is limited enough that I feel compelled to have a car anyway that just sits. I still have to pay taxes and insurance on that car, plus the yearly oil change (at least it is paid for). What with replacing the bike tires, chain, and cassette a lot more often than I expected I end up spending as much on bike maintenance and I would on gas and the other costs of the car are paid either way. If I could get rid of the car it would be cheaper, but otherwise no. don't get me wrong - I encourage everyone to ride a bike where they can. However it is for health reasons not saving money.
- esalman 1y ago
  There's no way they're going to keep a modular car functioning for years without relying on frequent software updates.
  - tomrod 1y ago
    Did it for 100 years. Nkthing changed. They don't need to make cars into surveillance systems. That's a choice.
    - verisimi 1y ago
      This is the whole point: putting intermediaries between you and the things you think you own. You think you own your car, phone, appliances, but actually, once this system is in place, you will effectively be on some sort of subscription contract with few traditional ownership rights, with many other parties (the car maker, government agencies) able to turn your car off remotely. Nice and safe.
    - calvinmorrison 1y ago
      That's not entirely true. Most cars have revisions to software. Even ones from the 90s had ways to patch the ECU performed by dealers.
      - tomrod 1y ago
        Not without the driver involved in the cycle, either directly or indirectly. Now they are along for the ride no matter what.
  - achierius 1y ago
    Concretely, why not? If you don't get updates, there's nothing to break the thing -- and if you don't have a network connection, you don't need the security updates.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- pabs3 1y ago
  Another option is converting an ICE car to EV: https://openinverter.org/wiki/ZombieVerter_VCU https://openinverter.org/wiki/ZombieVerter_VCU https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43898280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43898280 https://youtube.com/@evbmw https://youtube.com/@evbmw
  - oakstendheim 1y ago
    I really wish these options would become more common, maybe even similar to the whole ecosystem around old American muscle cars. Pick and choose a (mostly) standardized drive train, standardized battery packs of different capacities and and your electronics to connect everything together.
    - waste_monk 1y ago
      I thought the issue is more the batteries and weight distribution. That is, EVs usually have the batteries along the length of the chassis to spread the load out, which is not practical to retrofit onto an ICE car. And if you fill the engine bay on an ICE car with battery packs during the conversion, the weight distribution will be extremely uneven and cause trouble with the suspension and related components, poor handling, etc.
      - bayindirh 1y ago
        > etc. That "etc." hides "moving the heaviest, most flammable and non-extinguishable part of the drivetrain into a primary crumple zone in front of you" pretty neatly. :D
        Loudergood 1y ago
        On the opposite side of something that's long been called a "Firewall" for a reason.
        bayindirh 1y ago
        However, lithium fires burn hotter and can't be contained as easily. So, that firewall may need an update, too. Plus, as I noted in the weight part, an engine in a compartment is designed to detach and slide down to protect the cell. Can every retrofitter guarantee the same thing for their battery packs?
- fc417fc802 1y ago
  I'm not really worried about a lack of updates to an embedded device provided that it isn't network connected. To me the root of the issue, and also a far more concerning problem in and of itself, is that from what I understand modern vehicles are connected to the mobile network and phone home.
  - 3eb7988a1663 1y ago
    If you are not connected to the internet and installing the latest patches, you will be vulnerable to the next RCE!
  - numpad0 1y ago
    Yeah, security is not a liquid. It won't diminish over time, and can't be added by updating. Updates replace something with something else, in this day and age likely third world outsourced code with vibecoded burning dumpster. Disconnecting the device from networks is basically always a better alternative. I don't understand why that much isn't so obvious to HN readers.
  - eptcyka 1y ago
    Dealerships will want you to service at their shops because they will upload all the BT metadata that the car has logged. Just because it can’t upload data on its own does not mean data instead logged.
    - eptcyka 1y ago
      …does not mean data is not logged. Apple, please fix your keyboards.
- darthrupert 1y ago
  For what it's worth, the first Tesla model that ever got software upgrades is still getting them. That's the Model S from 2012.
- winrid 1y ago
  There are plenty of modern options. Most of my vehicles do not get over the wire updates ('12 honda civic, '15 base model Colorado, '17 Spark). Our tiguan does, sadly.
- Max-q 1y ago
  Reminds me of old Mercedes and BWMs with built-in NMT phones in their console. The cars lasted a lot longer than the NMT standard for mobile phones.
- jacquesm 1y ago
  If my car's engine dies (which at some point it probably will do, after all, these things don't live forever) I'll just rebuild it again. It's got 200K on it and a relatively fresh engine (40K) so I think I'm good for a long time to come but buying a modern vehicle isn't even on the menu for me. If I really want malware I'll disable my adblocker, I really don't need it in my car.
- MetaWhirledPeas 1y ago
  You're driving an old car now; you could just drive a different old car when that time comes. But if you're talking about new cars, I think the best way to mitigate that is to buy something that is ubiquitous. The popular cars are the most likely to have enthusiasts finding ways to keep them running until the wheels fall off.
- pengaru 1y ago
  > Of all the new cars ideas I've seen recently, only the Slate mini-truck seems to be taking a minimalist approach, with no fancy head unit or navigation system. Agreed re: Slate, it looks interesting through this lens for sure. But I also think there's probably a business opportunity here, and wonder why a bunch of thinkpad enthusiasts don't get together and start a classic tech business delivering simple EVs with knobs+levers, and computers that don't suck.
nothercastle 1y ago
I guess the next thing is to kill the black box and you are set.
judge123 1y ago
I'm starting to think the short software support isn't a bug, it's a feature. They want the car to feel obsolete in 5 years so you're pushed into buying the next model. It's the smartphone sales model, but for a $50,000 purchase.
- shawn_w 1y ago
  Planned obsolescence
  - awesome_dude 1y ago
    Planned Obsolescence 2.0 - they can tell the system when it's time to die.
    - Arch-TK 1y ago
      So maybe it should be called: "Remote Controlled Obsolescence" now?
  - bluGill 1y ago
    Thought it isn't quite as bad as stated - manufactures need their cars to have value as used cars for a while because very few people could afford to pay $70k for a new car without trading in something else that is still work $35k. And those people buying the $35k car in turn expect it to hold value for a while (either so they can trade it in for $15k in 5 years, or they expect to keep running for 10 years). Which is to say if they made cars that only lasted 3 years they could only charge $35k for the high end ones, and a lot of people would be looking to buy a base model without the optional heater. Or worse for them, if cars become too unaffordable people will start demanding good public transit.
- themafia 1y ago
  It's everywhere. You design a new transmission to comply with federal regulations. The transmission is mostly an upgrade of previous designs and built in cooperation with multiple vendors. It's actually not a bad unit. Which is a problem because it will be too reliable. So you take a small accessory component, like a valve body, and you undersize it and built it out of inappropriate materials. It now starves the transmission, causes it to run hot, and the nice transmission cooks itself to death under even the slightest load. The hope is you won't even bother to buy and install a new $7000 part. Just scrap the car and get a new one! If you're buying a new vehicle, find your favorite search engine, then search for "car model year reliability upgrade." You're almost certainly going to want to get a few of those done if you expect the car to be driving in more than 5 years.
Terr_ 1y ago
On the less-technical side, Hyundai has a corporate-legal mechanism to request "Delete personal information" [0] that might be worth doing, just to round things out. > one step of which involved removing this "garnish" panel behind the screen. Easier said than done Different year/model, but same experience with the same task: I really hate situations where the secret is "a suspicious amount of force", especially if there's no sufficiently trustworthy/detailed information showing that things can be pulled or pried in a certain manner. > Having a couple of non-marring plastic pry tools does help with this sort of thing IMO these are worth buying, they're quite cheap and trying to make-do with metal tools will cause more scratches and scrapes than you'd expect, no matter how careful you're trying to be. [0] https://owners.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/privacy/data-request/new-request https://owners.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/privacy/data-request/new...
- dwattttt 1y ago
  Plus they're fun to say. Spudger!
  - 3-cheese-sundae 1y ago
    Yes. I, too, shall spudge.
    - RamRodification 1y ago
      If it won't budge, give it a spudge!
  - velocity3230 1y ago
    Spudger? I hardly know her!
- regularfry 1y ago
  Having worked in a car factory, getting involved in the rectification side of things, I can say that "a suspicious amount of force" is pretty normal for this stuff. If you're working on a car you need to be able to get behind the panels, but they need to be held on well enough to never, ever rattle. Looking for trustworthy information these days is much easier than it used to be, there are generally technician training videos on youtube that will show you where and how to pop panels off.
mensetmanusman 1y ago
The govt should fund $1,000,000 bug bounties on these vehicles. If anyone succeeds in remotely gaining access to the mic, car companies are fined $100,000,000.
- apples_oranges 1y ago
  Government aren’t exactly the privacy guys …
  - nicce 1y ago
    If you ask current EU Council, they might even pay for enabling it. For national safety, it also must be always on.
- surajrmal 1y ago
  I think that's more likely to get companies to remove mics than to make them secure.
  - kurtoid 1y ago
    good?
  - arunabha 1y ago
    I'm genuinely struggling to think of downsides in that. Surely the most 'secure' microphone is the one that doesn't exist in the first place?
    - kube-system 1y ago
      People like to make phone calls and use Carplay/AA in their car.
  - Marazan 1y ago
    Yes
- jahewson 1y ago
0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago
If they had just clipped the antenna wires, how likely would that have disabled all outbound communication? Clearly not as good as disconnecting the modem (which removed some software checks), but more approachable without the multi hour disassembly.
- Arainach 1y ago
  You generally have to disassemble far more annoying things to get to the antenna than to remove the head unit.
- ungreased0675 1y ago
  A better way might be to install dummy loads on the antenna outputs.
- K0balt 1y ago
  If you install fully shielded resistors it can work, but shorting the antenna completely will have the added benefit of destroying the RF amplifier transistors. From then on the car will just think it’s out of cell range, and there’s not much chance of leaky signal. It’s not too hard to make shielded loads though. I do prefer the option of removing the entire cellular module though. Any non-disable-able connectivity will be an absolute deal breaker for me on any vehicle I own. I guess that probably means I’ll be buying used vehicles for the rest of my life, but it is what it is.
a012 1y ago
My biggest gripe with the modern cars (looking at you EV) is they’re now made to be like a mobile phone with wheels
- adolph 1y ago
  Yes, including fingerprint authentication. https://ownersmanual.hyundai.com/docview/webhelp/Hyundai/46a0ad23-5102-4a36-be4c-0d2cd7f11bc9/idd2248837c7d.html https://ownersmanual.hyundai.com/docview/webhelp/Hyundai/46a...
Liftyee 1y ago
Nice work. I'm honestly surprised that the head unit didn't complain about the missing modem. Although it's far from returning to a simpler less software heavy car, removing the cellular connectivity is a promising start that surely hugely reduces the attack surface of the vehicle
justforfunhere 1y ago
I know of some modern vehicles that will not start at all if you go about removing the telematics unit. I am not sure how long will it take before you will not be able to buy a vehicle at all without having to consent to being monitored remotely 24x7, but it will happen sooner than later. And this coming from a developing country. Pretty sure it is much worse in the developed world. I guess the market for second hand older vehicles might see an uptick because of this and might also see a boom in demand for expertise of maintaining and rejuvenating such vehicles.
- navigate8310 1y ago
  Some developing countries such as India, are completely banning the ply of old vehicles on the road.
  - msgodel 1y ago
    I'd imagine India has some pretty insane stuff driving around so that's not surprising. The US effectively did that (arguably even more extremely) 15 years ago with the "cash for clunkers" thing.
    - cpgxiii 1y ago
      There's this bizarre alternative history around "cash for clunkers" where an incentive program has been rewritten as this great evil that forced older vehicles off the road. All participation was voluntary. While internet commentators bemoan the "classic" cars scrapped in the program, these were almost certainly in terrible condition - people with classic cars in good condition know their value (or at least the party taking it as a trade-in does).
- farmdve 1y ago
  I am actually fascinated by car electronics. I had heavily modified the software on mine, but it was easier than modern stuff, no encryption of the code, and even the checksum code only triggered a DTC with no consequences. The only module that was encrypted was the main module, but it if you knew the security PIN you could do what you wanted. It was determined by people that if you observed the jitter of the CAN line fast enough, you could leak the pin via a side channel attack. But modern car electronics are encrypted, and some probably have security processors that might trigger some irreversible states if you tamper with them. Modern cars are basically as locked up as a PS5.
EvanAnderson 1y ago
I am all for removing this needless communication the manufacturers are equipping cars with now, but between your cell phone associating with towers, the Flock cameras that every municipality has eagerly deployed, the repo bounty people driving parking lots with LPRs, and LEOs with on-car LPRs you're still being tracked. Still, no reason to make it easier.
- 01HNNWZ0MV43FF 1y ago
  It can all be fought. https://deflock.me/ https://deflock.me/ I keep my phone in Airplane Mode. Can't do a ton about private ALPRs except put peanut butter on them or whatever when you see em
  - Sayrus 1y ago
    I remember reading that (some?) phones in airplane mode can still be pinged by the network to request their location and the call is answered directly by the blackbox modem rather than by Android/iOS bypassing most privacy features. Airplane mode also usually keeps Bluetooth and WiFi enabled so that's one thing to look for.
    - derwiki 1y ago
      There’s always Faraday cage bags for cell phones
      - kube-system 1y ago
        Yeah, they don't work though. They're about as effective as those signal-boosting stickers you could get at truck stops in the 00s.
        derwiki 1y ago
        Really? I used to have one and it always killed my battery looking for signal. It also prevented me from making calls to the phone.
rconti 1y ago
Had to look up "yuppie button" to figure out what they were on about. Sounds like a fun fellow. Lights up all of the lights on the back of the car for funsies. Oh they're all DOT-approved, so it's probably a good idea. Definitely a safety feature. Their manifesto makes them totally believe that everyone else on the road is the problem. https://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/yb/ https://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/yb/
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- imp0cat 1y ago
  [...] pulling this wouldn't let handsfree Bluetooth phone stuff work either, but I've never had much need for that [...] Sounds like a fun fellow indeed.
  - codingminds 1y ago
    Why? I also don't have any need for that, because I never answer or even use my phone while driving.
    - imp0cat 1y ago
      Well I guess it depends. While I appreciate your purist take on driving and aspire to be such a disciplined driver one day, there is still a myriad of reasons why one could want to have a functional mic. I find even the single line: "Hey, I'm driving, call you back later." much better than just ignoring incoming calls. Also the ecall thing might come in very handy if an accident happens, but that is a very big IF.
- shepherdjerred 1y ago
  The techno fandom page is actually quite measured and reasonable. It's not a crazy idea to prevent dangerous behavior of those behind you.
  - 1y ago
bobbyraduloff 1y ago
It’s quite upsetting that if you want a modern car so that you utilise the newest advances in safety, you have to consent to constant tracking, enshitification, subscription services, etc. It would be really cool if you could get something like a ‘67 impala that doesn’t make ‘67 emissions and has actual seatbelts and airbags…
- regulimgfdi 1y ago
  It's really a regulatory problem, where I live my 2025 toyota has a big display saying "the car is unable to send or receive any data if you don't press press accept", pressing decline gives the car that out of cell range symbol. Doesen't prevent targeted surveillance nor mass government surveillance, but those are more about regulations too.
  - AyyEye 1y ago
    Recent Toyotas can have the DCM physically bypassed fairly easily by unplugging it and/or unplugging a fuse. You lose the front passenger speaker and bluetooth microphone, but those can be re-enabled with a bypass cable or manually jumpering them and putting in an 8v supply IC for the mic.
martin_a 1y ago
> Somewhat related, an easy early fix was to disable the car's microphone in the headliner light assembly. This (and maybe the things he does further on) would probably interfer with the eCall system that is mandatory for cars in Europe. The author seems to be in the US so that might be fine, but if you're in Europe, please don't do stuff like this.
- general1726 1y ago
  eCall is sending GPS location after the crash, microphone is not necessary.
  - martin_a 1y ago
    eCall is also opening up a two way communication with the emergency line, so they can gather more information. Might be helpful if your microphone does work in that case.
  - numpad0 1y ago
    The law text might appear to allow other interpretation as laws always do, but I believe the actual implementation is a phone with power input, an electronic report trigger API, a mechanical 911 button, and optional SIM. They come with a mic and a speaker.
- jvdvegt 1y ago
  I suppose such system is mandatory in a car when it's sold, such after sales changes would be fine as safety is not directly impacted. Source: my daily drive is a car without a modem on European roads, no problem.
  - martin_a 1y ago
    Well, safety is impacted, but it seems to be up to you. If you want to go down like _a real man_ because your car couldn't call emergency services that's your choice. Other people might (hopefully) make another choice.
Unirely01 1y ago
[dead]
bradley13 1y ago
I would like to see some legal and regulatory steps. When we purchased our Ioniq, there was no agreement for data sharing, etc. - we have basically a cash register receipt, nothing more. Whenever there is a major update, an insanely long T&A appears on the screen. No one is going to read it. The only options are "accept" or clicking it away. If you click it away, it comes back the next day. It cannot possibly be legal for them to basically force T&A - a one-sided contract change - on customers.
- lynx97 1y ago
  I've been told T&A after you bought a product is actually not legal in the EU. The popups still appear, and everyone clicks thorugh. It can't be legal. Whatever they want me to agree with, they have to force me at checkout time. Everything beyond that is plain ransomeware.
  - jeroenhd 1y ago
    It kind of depends; there's a difference between Europe and the EU, for one. But there are also things you can hide away in the T&C and privacy statements, while other stuff (usually involving PII) needs explicit consent and opt-outs. The EU mandates the presence of an emergency cellular radio on board of new vehicles in case of crashes. It took some convincing, but that radio is now supposed to be off by default. You can demand a refund for Windows keys that came along with your computer if you disagree with the ToS (which has been tested by a French court IIRC), and that ability is actually included in the Windows EULA these days, but getting that kind of thing enforced will be draining. Repeated calls and repeated emails at the very least, filing complaints and threatening legal action if the vendor doesn't want to comply.
- LightBug1 1y ago
  Thanks for the heads-up ... I've been drooling over an ioniq 5 (ideally N) for quite some time as an excellent alternative to the Douche-la. But this kind of thing really puts me off ... I've been maintaining a 2005 Toyota and a 1969 Vw Beetle ... no worries about fucking T&C's or T&A's ... looks like I'll continue the maintenance regime, which I kind of enjoy anyway.
Brosper 1y ago
I like this Techno Fandom page!
msgodel 1y ago
So people are supposed to pay 10x the price of what they can get actually pretty decent used cars for and then not have control over the firmware? These companies deserve bankruptcy.
potato3732842 1y ago
>Finally I realized that it just took a little more force in the right places, and managed to work it loose one clip at a time. I f-ing hate this crap. And it's only gonna get worse because "hurr durr snappy plastic" is one of those industry circle jerks that exists because academia indoctrinated a generation into it. You can have snappy plastic that isn't subject to breaking if you remove it wrong if you a) design it simpler and less trick b) use a couple cents more material c) use better plastic. And before all the stupid professionals start screeching about cost and weight... there's usually no cost difference at the end of the day because doing what I suggested reduces tooling costs and makes your QC pass window wider.
RyJones 1y ago
If you want to see what Honda emits: https://gist.github.com/ryjones/73739f6a7e662b9ed9ba64d9141ffcc9 https://gist.github.com/ryjones/73739f6a7e662b9ed9ba64d9141f...
RajT88 1y ago
We need a wiki of guides like this. I am dreading when my diesel golf dies. (Of course, I can probably get away with buying low miles ICE cars for some decades after)
CommenterPerson 1y ago
Corporations have figured out that enshittification works .. it increases revenue and profit. Same with surveillance capitalism. Some of this feels like fun stuff for us techies but it will bite us and the next gen. The only way to fix it is to vote for decent regulations.
stavros 1y ago
Fortunately, my BYD runs fine even though I removed the SIM card from the slot.
Angostura 1y ago
Following.
snozolli 1y ago
I never thought that battling the corpos was going to look so mundane.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
moi2388 1y ago
Off topic; really annoying to read. Please make the images just blocks between the text instead of this wrap around, it makes all text only two words wide in a single column on the right
mihaaly 1y ago
Proucts are made for the needs of the manufacturers nowadays (using borderline criminal practices like enforced mass surveillance), not for the needs of the paying customers. And apparently the cutomers are ok with it, most of the time, otherwise this practice was already dead. How did we come to this?
djoldman 1y ago
Has anyone successfully accomplished similar with a Tesla?
m463 1y ago
I suspect there might be on-board antennas in addition to offboard antennas. I had a device with wifi, and I figured I could disable the wifi by just disconnecting the antenna. Nope. Then I connected the antenna to a dummy load Nope. there are onboard antennas that take over and continue to work. I suspect the same thing for cellular (though I have no actual data about the system in question)
bgnn 1y ago
Fun fact: a modern car takes up to 10 hours to flash at the factory. They have so many microcontrollers and CPUs, it's getting a huge cost to just load up the initial FW during production. Is it all necessary? Hell no.
millzlane 1y ago
I used to care about stuff like this. But then I stopped and life has been great!
incoren3 1y ago
And this is why I drive a fleet of antiques. I'll build myself a fucking horse and carriage and go live with the Amish before I accept a vehicle with telematics of any kind.

432 points by pilingual 1y ago

zdw 1y ago

I'm fearing the day when my quite old ICE car dies and I end up in a situation where the best option is a newer car that is a computer on wheels running software that I know will stop getting updates very quickly. Of all the new cars ideas I've seen recently, only the Slate mini-truck seems to be taking a minimalist approach, with no fancy head unit or navigation system.

Terr_ 1y ago
I'm hopeful that stuff like Android Auto or Apple CarPlay will continue moving some of the risky obsolete-able complexity away of the giant expensive machine I plan to keep for over a decade (the car) and into smaller easier-to-replace ones (my smartphone.) A quick outline for those who haven't used them: The car's head-display becomes mostly-controlled by your phone, which is what supplies any navigation, music, podcasts, address-book, GPS, cellular data-connection, etc. Meanwhile the car focuses on providing the display/touchpad hardware, inputs from steering-wheel controls, and maybe AM/FM radio modes. With the right vehicles/adapters I don't even need to take my phone out of my pocket, which is great because then I can't forget it in the car.
- dangus 1y ago
  This is not the direction that the software is going in. https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/05/carplay-ultra-the-next-generation-of-carplay-begins-rolling-out-today/ https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2025/05/carplay-ultra-the-nex...
  - compootr 1y ago
    fascinating idea, but no mention of android. Would one (like me!) simply be unable to use this car to its full extent?
  - mook 1y ago
    CarPlay Ultra sounds like it's extending it further? That is, it's still essentially VNC† with some data fed from the car and rendered by the phone, but now with multi-monitor support. † it's more complicated than that, but still a dumb framebuffer.
    - poink 1y ago
      This is what I hoped for but based on the Ultra implementation in the Astons is not at all what we’re getting It seems to require pretty deep integration with the automaker (Aston provides a lot of custom visuals), and based on the available third party reviews it doesn’t work as well as you’d suspect for a flagship integration
    - bayindirh 1y ago
      > but still a dumb framebuffer. Nope. Your car and phone exchanges some info, too. Like serial numbers, some real time telemetry data, etc.
    - echoangle 1y ago
      I can't imagine that the image shown in CarPlay Ultra is still rendered on the phone. It's used to show all driving relevant things (speed etc.). Is a wireless connection to the phone reliable enough so this would be allowed by regulators? I thought the main image would be rendered on the car using local data and only the entertainment stuff is transferred from the phone. And also, how would you drive your car without the phone if everything is rendered on the phone? Would they implement an entire backup dashboard for this? I thought it would always show the CarPlay Ultra interface, even when no phone is connected.
      - ToucanLoucan 1y ago
        > I can't imagine that the image shown in CarPlay Ultra is still rendered on the phone. It's used to show all driving relevant things (speed etc.). Is a wireless connection to the phone reliable enough so this would be allowed by regulators? I have some understanding of this being someone who has installed way too many aftermarket head units, and as best I can tell, all the rendering indeed occurs on the phone. The CarPlay experience is virtually identical across all the units I've tested on, from my stock '18 Corvette unit, through 4 or 5 ones I've shuffled through in my F-150, and through 2 or 3 through my Chrysler 300. Apart from display size and density, there is no difference at all in all these CarPlay units. They function identically. The phone also gets notably warm even just playing music which is part of why I strongly suspect all of that is phone-side activity at play with the dash just providing a resolution/density combo and touch inputs. > Would they implement an entire backup dashboard for this? Correct, if my research is to be believed. There's a stock OEM OS look to everything in line with each brand's visual designs, which is then swapped out to whatever degree they feel like exposing to CarPlay Ultra, at which point it's reskinned in Apple's look. I don't own any vehicles new enough for this, but it's pretty cool if it works. That said I'm less a fan of everything being a display. For gauges and such I do prefer physical gauges.
- zevon 1y ago
  This is a bit of a two-edged sword. I kind of doubt that Carplay and Android Auto will keep working with new phones as long as a car can. At which point you will end up with an old smartphone in your car or some workaround like that.
  - rimunroe 1y ago
    Has this ever happened with CarPlay? As far as I know, even if your car was made in 2013 when CarPlay was first released it should continue to work just fine with the newest iPhones. If you plug the latest iPhone into your 2013 car, you would see the latest version of CarPlay pop up on the screen. I know there's a new version of CarPlay which requires support from the car maker, but I think CarPlay support is a binary matter of if the car supports CarPlay at all. I'd hope they'd design the system such that it wouldn't become obsolete over the average lifespan of the vehicle.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      I would hope so, but I don't trust computer makers. There are people who still use cars made in the 1960s as their daily driver (probably only a handful in the US). Most parts are still available, and if not you can make them in your garage with affordable tools (metal lathes are rare but not unheard of in a home shop). Apple switch to OSX, m68k to PPC to x86 (ARM is in progress). I had the first android phone - the apps I bought for it back then are not on installable on my current phone (most haven't very modified from what I ran back then). If I had a copy I could still run Office 97 on a modern windows 11 machine - or so I'm told - but nobody will know how to inter change files with me. My company has had to redesign perfectly good embedded controllers just because the chips are not made anymore.
      - philistine 1y ago
        On the other hand, Apple is quick to get rid of old APIs in their software, but they consider features sacrosanct. Only this Fall will macOS lose support for Firewire, which finally means that we have a version of macOS that doesn't support the first iPod. Which came out in 2001. All the USB iPods will still connect and sync.
- exabrial 1y ago
  This was vehicles made in 2018. I’m trying to keep mine alive as long as possible.
- eitally 1y ago
  I posted this above, but in new Lexus RX models at least, the Lexus vehicle management software trumps the AA interface so you're forced to setup their mobile app if you want to use AA (for things like navigation). On a related note, the Bluetooth stack in my F150 doesn't work very well with phone calls. I can place calls fine, but receiving calls will not route them through vehicle audio. I have to turn on speaker phone to participate. It's a known problem "won't fix" from Ford, regardless of the fact that they've sold millions of these trucks (mine is a 2017 and has never worked).
  - grepfru_it 1y ago
    That sounds like sync 3.. there was a known problem with Bluetooth connectivity but there was a fairly easy way to fix it. I cannot remember but I will look at my ford vehicle tonight for what I did
  - slumberlust 1y ago
    They want their hands on that juicy data that Google and apple are getting. It's why GMC opted to make their own instead, and why you have to jump through their hoops first.
- foobarian 1y ago
  I can't figure out why car manufacturers insist on building whole parallel universes of UIs, media apps, nav apps et cetera. Doesn't it cost a ton? Do people actually use/want this stuff?
  - AlexandrB 1y ago
    The why is pretty simple: they want recurring revenue. What the customer wants is secondary.
    - Version467 1y ago
      And insisting on building their own mediocre ui helps them achieve that how exactly? Maybe I'm just super out of touch on how people use their cars, but my cars infotainment system has not made its manufacturer any additional money as far as I can tell.
      - aprilthird2021 1y ago
        Once you have the data the money can be figured out later. You can figure out how people use the car and what features matter to them and upsell or upcharge for those features in the next line. You can cross-advertise (oh you listen to music when driving here's Spotify deal through us and behind-the-scenes we get a cut for lead generation to Spotify). You can use the information to defend in lawsuits. Oh our car is faulty leading to accidents? But all these people were fiddling with the unit before crashing. Also if you control the platform you can sell integration spots to companies. I know my old BMW had a specific separate path to connect Spotify on your phone to car, no other audio app. There's surely other ways I haven't thought of. The investment pays off later IF you get the data, but CarPlay and Android Auto have really mucked that gambit up for the car makers
        jonbiggums22 1y ago
        Don't forget selling the driving data to insurance companies, private investigators, law enforcement, etc.
- Wistar 1y ago
  GM, at least on their new Equinox EV, no longer supports either Apple CarPlay or Android Auto electing instead to provide only the Google built-in infotainment system and apps. I discovered this just yesterday while researching the Equinox for a friend. She is no longer interested in the Equinox despite her loving its looks.
  - hexyl_C_gut 1y ago
    For some reason, they still get CarPlay outside of US. https://www.thedrive.com/news/gm-evs-will-get-apple-carplay-after-all-but-only-outside-the-us https://www.thedrive.com/news/gm-evs-will-get-apple-carplay-...
layoric 1y ago
Same, early 2010s IMO seems to be the point where the industry really started to shift. There are some good cars from before this time, but keep them running past the 2030s will be a challenge.
- userbinator 1y ago
  There are some good cars from before this time, but keep them running past the 2030s will be a challenge. If it's a pre-computer car, all you need is a machine shop or access to one.
- flomo 1y ago
  This problem solved itself on my car because it only has a 3G modem.
  - bestham 1y ago
    On an adjacent theme there has been a large debate in Sweden if a car that has mandated automatic eCall over 2G or 3G is faulty and thus not roadworthy if the 2G and 3G networks are turned off. The eCall feature was introduced broadly in 2018. It still uses modem sounds over a voice phone call to relay car emergency status and position. New solutions for packet only networks (4g and 5G) have been standardised but are not retrofitted to older cars.
    - potato3732842 1y ago
      There's, broadly speaking, two ways this can go. The first way this can go is that the people with a stake in selling cars (dealers, OEMs, etc) get their lobbyists leaning on the politicians and get it rammed through. The second is that the issue gets delayed long enough that the number of older vehicles it applies to goes down out of attrition and it's not worth fighting over. Considering the cultural disposition of the nordics when it comes to matters like this I expect the first option to be chosen. There will enough people hand wringing about safety and whatnot to provide the political lubricant to ensure the first outcome.
    - toast0 1y ago
gonzo41 1y ago
Consider an electric cargo bike if you're life will suite it.
- zevon 1y ago
  It may be easy to get a simple(ish) one now, but there are already a lot of e-bikes out there with "smarts", apps, vendor-lock-ins up the wazoo, cellular connection and the like. If electric cargo bikes ever go mainstream, I expect the majority of them will be techifyed in the same vein as the Hyundai the author wrote about.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- MetaWhirledPeas 1y ago
  > Consider an electric cargo bike if you're life will suite it. Don't they have proprietary batteries? So you're out of luck at end-of-life if that company still isn't in business. And if a part fails are there replacements? I'll give you the price is cheap. But if we're just looking for cheap then OP has nothing to worry about. There's cheap transportation in a variety of forms if you buy used.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    I ride such a bike, and I would no longer call it cheap - the range/speed is limited enough that I feel compelled to have a car anyway that just sits. I still have to pay taxes and insurance on that car, plus the yearly oil change (at least it is paid for). What with replacing the bike tires, chain, and cassette a lot more often than I expected I end up spending as much on bike maintenance and I would on gas and the other costs of the car are paid either way. If I could get rid of the car it would be cheaper, but otherwise no. don't get me wrong - I encourage everyone to ride a bike where they can. However it is for health reasons not saving money.
esalman 1y ago
There's no way they're going to keep a modular car functioning for years without relying on frequent software updates.
- tomrod 1y ago
  Did it for 100 years. Nkthing changed. They don't need to make cars into surveillance systems. That's a choice.
  - verisimi 1y ago
    This is the whole point: putting intermediaries between you and the things you think you own. You think you own your car, phone, appliances, but actually, once this system is in place, you will effectively be on some sort of subscription contract with few traditional ownership rights, with many other parties (the car maker, government agencies) able to turn your car off remotely. Nice and safe.
  - calvinmorrison 1y ago
    That's not entirely true. Most cars have revisions to software. Even ones from the 90s had ways to patch the ECU performed by dealers.
    - tomrod 1y ago
      Not without the driver involved in the cycle, either directly or indirectly. Now they are along for the ride no matter what.
- achierius 1y ago
  Concretely, why not? If you don't get updates, there's nothing to break the thing -- and if you don't have a network connection, you don't need the security updates.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
pabs3 1y ago
Another option is converting an ICE car to EV: https://openinverter.org/wiki/ZombieVerter_VCU https://openinverter.org/wiki/ZombieVerter_VCU https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43898280 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43898280 https://youtube.com/@evbmw https://youtube.com/@evbmw
- oakstendheim 1y ago
  I really wish these options would become more common, maybe even similar to the whole ecosystem around old American muscle cars. Pick and choose a (mostly) standardized drive train, standardized battery packs of different capacities and and your electronics to connect everything together.
  - waste_monk 1y ago
    I thought the issue is more the batteries and weight distribution. That is, EVs usually have the batteries along the length of the chassis to spread the load out, which is not practical to retrofit onto an ICE car. And if you fill the engine bay on an ICE car with battery packs during the conversion, the weight distribution will be extremely uneven and cause trouble with the suspension and related components, poor handling, etc.
    - bayindirh 1y ago
      > etc. That "etc." hides "moving the heaviest, most flammable and non-extinguishable part of the drivetrain into a primary crumple zone in front of you" pretty neatly. :D
      - Loudergood 1y ago
        On the opposite side of something that's long been called a "Firewall" for a reason.
        bayindirh 1y ago
        However, lithium fires burn hotter and can't be contained as easily. So, that firewall may need an update, too. Plus, as I noted in the weight part, an engine in a compartment is designed to detach and slide down to protect the cell. Can every retrofitter guarantee the same thing for their battery packs?
fc417fc802 1y ago
I'm not really worried about a lack of updates to an embedded device provided that it isn't network connected. To me the root of the issue, and also a far more concerning problem in and of itself, is that from what I understand modern vehicles are connected to the mobile network and phone home.
- 3eb7988a1663 1y ago
  If you are not connected to the internet and installing the latest patches, you will be vulnerable to the next RCE!
- numpad0 1y ago
  Yeah, security is not a liquid. It won't diminish over time, and can't be added by updating. Updates replace something with something else, in this day and age likely third world outsourced code with vibecoded burning dumpster. Disconnecting the device from networks is basically always a better alternative. I don't understand why that much isn't so obvious to HN readers.
- eptcyka 1y ago
  Dealerships will want you to service at their shops because they will upload all the BT metadata that the car has logged. Just because it can’t upload data on its own does not mean data instead logged.
  - eptcyka 1y ago
    …does not mean data is not logged. Apple, please fix your keyboards.
darthrupert 1y ago
For what it's worth, the first Tesla model that ever got software upgrades is still getting them. That's the Model S from 2012.
winrid 1y ago
There are plenty of modern options. Most of my vehicles do not get over the wire updates ('12 honda civic, '15 base model Colorado, '17 Spark). Our tiguan does, sadly.
Max-q 1y ago
Reminds me of old Mercedes and BWMs with built-in NMT phones in their console. The cars lasted a lot longer than the NMT standard for mobile phones.
jacquesm 1y ago
If my car's engine dies (which at some point it probably will do, after all, these things don't live forever) I'll just rebuild it again. It's got 200K on it and a relatively fresh engine (40K) so I think I'm good for a long time to come but buying a modern vehicle isn't even on the menu for me. If I really want malware I'll disable my adblocker, I really don't need it in my car.
MetaWhirledPeas 1y ago
You're driving an old car now; you could just drive a different old car when that time comes. But if you're talking about new cars, I think the best way to mitigate that is to buy something that is ubiquitous. The popular cars are the most likely to have enthusiasts finding ways to keep them running until the wheels fall off.
pengaru 1y ago
> Of all the new cars ideas I've seen recently, only the Slate mini-truck seems to be taking a minimalist approach, with no fancy head unit or navigation system. Agreed re: Slate, it looks interesting through this lens for sure. But I also think there's probably a business opportunity here, and wonder why a bunch of thinkpad enthusiasts don't get together and start a classic tech business delivering simple EVs with knobs+levers, and computers that don't suck.

nothercastle 1y ago

I guess the next thing is to kill the black box and you are set.

judge123 1y ago

I'm starting to think the short software support isn't a bug, it's a feature. They want the car to feel obsolete in 5 years so you're pushed into buying the next model. It's the smartphone sales model, but for a $50,000 purchase.

shawn_w 1y ago
Planned obsolescence
- awesome_dude 1y ago
  Planned Obsolescence 2.0 - they can tell the system when it's time to die.
  - Arch-TK 1y ago
    So maybe it should be called: "Remote Controlled Obsolescence" now?
- bluGill 1y ago
  Thought it isn't quite as bad as stated - manufactures need their cars to have value as used cars for a while because very few people could afford to pay $70k for a new car without trading in something else that is still work $35k. And those people buying the $35k car in turn expect it to hold value for a while (either so they can trade it in for $15k in 5 years, or they expect to keep running for 10 years). Which is to say if they made cars that only lasted 3 years they could only charge $35k for the high end ones, and a lot of people would be looking to buy a base model without the optional heater. Or worse for them, if cars become too unaffordable people will start demanding good public transit.
themafia 1y ago
It's everywhere. You design a new transmission to comply with federal regulations. The transmission is mostly an upgrade of previous designs and built in cooperation with multiple vendors. It's actually not a bad unit. Which is a problem because it will be too reliable. So you take a small accessory component, like a valve body, and you undersize it and built it out of inappropriate materials. It now starves the transmission, causes it to run hot, and the nice transmission cooks itself to death under even the slightest load. The hope is you won't even bother to buy and install a new $7000 part. Just scrap the car and get a new one! If you're buying a new vehicle, find your favorite search engine, then search for "car model year reliability upgrade." You're almost certainly going to want to get a few of those done if you expect the car to be driving in more than 5 years.

Terr_ 1y ago

On the less-technical side, Hyundai has a corporate-legal mechanism to request "Delete personal information" [0] that might be worth doing, just to round things out. > one step of which involved removing this "garnish" panel behind the screen. Easier said than done Different year/model, but same experience with the same task: I really hate situations where the secret is "a suspicious amount of force", especially if there's no sufficiently trustworthy/detailed information showing that things can be pulled or pried in a certain manner. > Having a couple of non-marring plastic pry tools does help with this sort of thing IMO these are worth buying, they're quite cheap and trying to make-do with metal tools will cause more scratches and scrapes than you'd expect, no matter how careful you're trying to be. [0] https://owners.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/privacy/data-request/new-request https://owners.hyundaiusa.com/us/en/privacy/data-request/new...

dwattttt 1y ago
Plus they're fun to say. Spudger!
- 3-cheese-sundae 1y ago
  Yes. I, too, shall spudge.
  - RamRodification 1y ago
    If it won't budge, give it a spudge!
- velocity3230 1y ago
  Spudger? I hardly know her!
regularfry 1y ago
Having worked in a car factory, getting involved in the rectification side of things, I can say that "a suspicious amount of force" is pretty normal for this stuff. If you're working on a car you need to be able to get behind the panels, but they need to be held on well enough to never, ever rattle. Looking for trustworthy information these days is much easier than it used to be, there are generally technician training videos on youtube that will show you where and how to pop panels off.

mensetmanusman 1y ago

The govt should fund $1,000,000 bug bounties on these vehicles. If anyone succeeds in remotely gaining access to the mic, car companies are fined $100,000,000.

apples_oranges 1y ago
Government aren’t exactly the privacy guys …
- nicce 1y ago
  If you ask current EU Council, they might even pay for enabling it. For national safety, it also must be always on.
surajrmal 1y ago
I think that's more likely to get companies to remove mics than to make them secure.
- kurtoid 1y ago
  good?
- arunabha 1y ago
  I'm genuinely struggling to think of downsides in that. Surely the most 'secure' microphone is the one that doesn't exist in the first place?
  - kube-system 1y ago
    People like to make phone calls and use Carplay/AA in their car.
- Marazan 1y ago
  Yes
jahewson 1y ago

0cf8612b2e1e 1y ago

If they had just clipped the antenna wires, how likely would that have disabled all outbound communication? Clearly not as good as disconnecting the modem (which removed some software checks), but more approachable without the multi hour disassembly.

Arainach 1y ago
You generally have to disassemble far more annoying things to get to the antenna than to remove the head unit.
ungreased0675 1y ago
A better way might be to install dummy loads on the antenna outputs.
K0balt 1y ago
If you install fully shielded resistors it can work, but shorting the antenna completely will have the added benefit of destroying the RF amplifier transistors. From then on the car will just think it’s out of cell range, and there’s not much chance of leaky signal. It’s not too hard to make shielded loads though. I do prefer the option of removing the entire cellular module though. Any non-disable-able connectivity will be an absolute deal breaker for me on any vehicle I own. I guess that probably means I’ll be buying used vehicles for the rest of my life, but it is what it is.

a012 1y ago

My biggest gripe with the modern cars (looking at you EV) is they’re now made to be like a mobile phone with wheels

adolph 1y ago
Yes, including fingerprint authentication. https://ownersmanual.hyundai.com/docview/webhelp/Hyundai/46a0ad23-5102-4a36-be4c-0d2cd7f11bc9/idd2248837c7d.html https://ownersmanual.hyundai.com/docview/webhelp/Hyundai/46a...

Liftyee 1y ago

Nice work. I'm honestly surprised that the head unit didn't complain about the missing modem. Although it's far from returning to a simpler less software heavy car, removing the cellular connectivity is a promising start that surely hugely reduces the attack surface of the vehicle

justforfunhere 1y ago

I know of some modern vehicles that will not start at all if you go about removing the telematics unit. I am not sure how long will it take before you will not be able to buy a vehicle at all without having to consent to being monitored remotely 24x7, but it will happen sooner than later. And this coming from a developing country. Pretty sure it is much worse in the developed world. I guess the market for second hand older vehicles might see an uptick because of this and might also see a boom in demand for expertise of maintaining and rejuvenating such vehicles.

navigate8310 1y ago
Some developing countries such as India, are completely banning the ply of old vehicles on the road.
- msgodel 1y ago
  I'd imagine India has some pretty insane stuff driving around so that's not surprising. The US effectively did that (arguably even more extremely) 15 years ago with the "cash for clunkers" thing.
  - cpgxiii 1y ago
    There's this bizarre alternative history around "cash for clunkers" where an incentive program has been rewritten as this great evil that forced older vehicles off the road. All participation was voluntary. While internet commentators bemoan the "classic" cars scrapped in the program, these were almost certainly in terrible condition - people with classic cars in good condition know their value (or at least the party taking it as a trade-in does).
farmdve 1y ago
I am actually fascinated by car electronics. I had heavily modified the software on mine, but it was easier than modern stuff, no encryption of the code, and even the checksum code only triggered a DTC with no consequences. The only module that was encrypted was the main module, but it if you knew the security PIN you could do what you wanted. It was determined by people that if you observed the jitter of the CAN line fast enough, you could leak the pin via a side channel attack. But modern car electronics are encrypted, and some probably have security processors that might trigger some irreversible states if you tamper with them. Modern cars are basically as locked up as a PS5.

EvanAnderson 1y ago

I am all for removing this needless communication the manufacturers are equipping cars with now, but between your cell phone associating with towers, the Flock cameras that every municipality has eagerly deployed, the repo bounty people driving parking lots with LPRs, and LEOs with on-car LPRs you're still being tracked. Still, no reason to make it easier.

01HNNWZ0MV43FF 1y ago
It can all be fought. https://deflock.me/ https://deflock.me/ I keep my phone in Airplane Mode. Can't do a ton about private ALPRs except put peanut butter on them or whatever when you see em
- Sayrus 1y ago
  I remember reading that (some?) phones in airplane mode can still be pinged by the network to request their location and the call is answered directly by the blackbox modem rather than by Android/iOS bypassing most privacy features. Airplane mode also usually keeps Bluetooth and WiFi enabled so that's one thing to look for.
  - derwiki 1y ago
    There’s always Faraday cage bags for cell phones
    - kube-system 1y ago
      Yeah, they don't work though. They're about as effective as those signal-boosting stickers you could get at truck stops in the 00s.
      - derwiki 1y ago
        Really? I used to have one and it always killed my battery looking for signal. It also prevented me from making calls to the phone.

rconti 1y ago

Had to look up "yuppie button" to figure out what they were on about. Sounds like a fun fellow. Lights up all of the lights on the back of the car for funsies. Oh they're all DOT-approved, so it's probably a good idea. Definitely a safety feature. Their manifesto makes them totally believe that everyone else on the road is the problem. https://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/yb/ https://techno-fandom.org/~hobbit/cars/yb/

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imp0cat 1y ago
[...] pulling this wouldn't let handsfree Bluetooth phone stuff work either, but I've never had much need for that [...] Sounds like a fun fellow indeed.
- codingminds 1y ago
  Why? I also don't have any need for that, because I never answer or even use my phone while driving.
  - imp0cat 1y ago
    Well I guess it depends. While I appreciate your purist take on driving and aspire to be such a disciplined driver one day, there is still a myriad of reasons why one could want to have a functional mic. I find even the single line: "Hey, I'm driving, call you back later." much better than just ignoring incoming calls. Also the ecall thing might come in very handy if an accident happens, but that is a very big IF.
shepherdjerred 1y ago
The techno fandom page is actually quite measured and reasonable. It's not a crazy idea to prevent dangerous behavior of those behind you.
- 1y ago

bobbyraduloff 1y ago

It’s quite upsetting that if you want a modern car so that you utilise the newest advances in safety, you have to consent to constant tracking, enshitification, subscription services, etc. It would be really cool if you could get something like a ‘67 impala that doesn’t make ‘67 emissions and has actual seatbelts and airbags…

regulimgfdi 1y ago
It's really a regulatory problem, where I live my 2025 toyota has a big display saying "the car is unable to send or receive any data if you don't press press accept", pressing decline gives the car that out of cell range symbol. Doesen't prevent targeted surveillance nor mass government surveillance, but those are more about regulations too.
- AyyEye 1y ago
  Recent Toyotas can have the DCM physically bypassed fairly easily by unplugging it and/or unplugging a fuse. You lose the front passenger speaker and bluetooth microphone, but those can be re-enabled with a bypass cable or manually jumpering them and putting in an 8v supply IC for the mic.

martin_a 1y ago

> Somewhat related, an easy early fix was to disable the car's microphone in the headliner light assembly. This (and maybe the things he does further on) would probably interfer with the eCall system that is mandatory for cars in Europe. The author seems to be in the US so that might be fine, but if you're in Europe, please don't do stuff like this.

general1726 1y ago
eCall is sending GPS location after the crash, microphone is not necessary.
- martin_a 1y ago
  eCall is also opening up a two way communication with the emergency line, so they can gather more information. Might be helpful if your microphone does work in that case.
- numpad0 1y ago
  The law text might appear to allow other interpretation as laws always do, but I believe the actual implementation is a phone with power input, an electronic report trigger API, a mechanical 911 button, and optional SIM. They come with a mic and a speaker.
jvdvegt 1y ago
I suppose such system is mandatory in a car when it's sold, such after sales changes would be fine as safety is not directly impacted. Source: my daily drive is a car without a modem on European roads, no problem.
- martin_a 1y ago
  Well, safety is impacted, but it seems to be up to you. If you want to go down like _a real man_ because your car couldn't call emergency services that's your choice. Other people might (hopefully) make another choice.

Unirely01 1y ago

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bradley13 1y ago

I would like to see some legal and regulatory steps. When we purchased our Ioniq, there was no agreement for data sharing, etc. - we have basically a cash register receipt, nothing more. Whenever there is a major update, an insanely long T&A appears on the screen. No one is going to read it. The only options are "accept" or clicking it away. If you click it away, it comes back the next day. It cannot possibly be legal for them to basically force T&A - a one-sided contract change - on customers.

lynx97 1y ago
I've been told T&A after you bought a product is actually not legal in the EU. The popups still appear, and everyone clicks thorugh. It can't be legal. Whatever they want me to agree with, they have to force me at checkout time. Everything beyond that is plain ransomeware.
- jeroenhd 1y ago
  It kind of depends; there's a difference between Europe and the EU, for one. But there are also things you can hide away in the T&C and privacy statements, while other stuff (usually involving PII) needs explicit consent and opt-outs. The EU mandates the presence of an emergency cellular radio on board of new vehicles in case of crashes. It took some convincing, but that radio is now supposed to be off by default. You can demand a refund for Windows keys that came along with your computer if you disagree with the ToS (which has been tested by a French court IIRC), and that ability is actually included in the Windows EULA these days, but getting that kind of thing enforced will be draining. Repeated calls and repeated emails at the very least, filing complaints and threatening legal action if the vendor doesn't want to comply.
LightBug1 1y ago
Thanks for the heads-up ... I've been drooling over an ioniq 5 (ideally N) for quite some time as an excellent alternative to the Douche-la. But this kind of thing really puts me off ... I've been maintaining a 2005 Toyota and a 1969 Vw Beetle ... no worries about fucking T&C's or T&A's ... looks like I'll continue the maintenance regime, which I kind of enjoy anyway.

Brosper 1y ago

I like this Techno Fandom page!

msgodel 1y ago

So people are supposed to pay 10x the price of what they can get actually pretty decent used cars for and then not have control over the firmware? These companies deserve bankruptcy.

potato3732842 1y ago

>Finally I realized that it just took a little more force in the right places, and managed to work it loose one clip at a time. I f-ing hate this crap. And it's only gonna get worse because "hurr durr snappy plastic" is one of those industry circle jerks that exists because academia indoctrinated a generation into it. You can have snappy plastic that isn't subject to breaking if you remove it wrong if you a) design it simpler and less trick b) use a couple cents more material c) use better plastic. And before all the stupid professionals start screeching about cost and weight... there's usually no cost difference at the end of the day because doing what I suggested reduces tooling costs and makes your QC pass window wider.

RyJones 1y ago

If you want to see what Honda emits: https://gist.github.com/ryjones/73739f6a7e662b9ed9ba64d9141ffcc9 https://gist.github.com/ryjones/73739f6a7e662b9ed9ba64d9141f...

RajT88 1y ago

We need a wiki of guides like this. I am dreading when my diesel golf dies. (Of course, I can probably get away with buying low miles ICE cars for some decades after)

CommenterPerson 1y ago

Corporations have figured out that enshittification works .. it increases revenue and profit. Same with surveillance capitalism. Some of this feels like fun stuff for us techies but it will bite us and the next gen. The only way to fix it is to vote for decent regulations.

stavros 1y ago

Fortunately, my BYD runs fine even though I removed the SIM card from the slot.

Angostura 1y ago

Following.

snozolli 1y ago

I never thought that battling the corpos was going to look so mundane.

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moi2388 1y ago

Off topic; really annoying to read. Please make the images just blocks between the text instead of this wrap around, it makes all text only two words wide in a single column on the right

mihaaly 1y ago

Proucts are made for the needs of the manufacturers nowadays (using borderline criminal practices like enforced mass surveillance), not for the needs of the paying customers. And apparently the cutomers are ok with it, most of the time, otherwise this practice was already dead. How did we come to this?

djoldman 1y ago

Has anyone successfully accomplished similar with a Tesla?

m463 1y ago

I suspect there might be on-board antennas in addition to offboard antennas. I had a device with wifi, and I figured I could disable the wifi by just disconnecting the antenna. Nope. Then I connected the antenna to a dummy load Nope. there are onboard antennas that take over and continue to work. I suspect the same thing for cellular (though I have no actual data about the system in question)

bgnn 1y ago

Fun fact: a modern car takes up to 10 hours to flash at the factory. They have so many microcontrollers and CPUs, it's getting a huge cost to just load up the initial FW during production. Is it all necessary? Hell no.

millzlane 1y ago

I used to care about stuff like this. But then I stopped and life has been great!

incoren3 1y ago

And this is why I drive a fleet of antiques. I'll build myself a fucking horse and carriage and go live with the Amish before I accept a vehicle with telematics of any kind.