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Can't make this shit up. The Danish government (currently holding the rotating chair) also raised the pension age for everyone. Other than themselves. But als

Can't make this shit up. The Danish government (currently holding the rotating chair) also raised the pension age for everyone. Other than themselves. But also, how does this get implemented? What's stopping me from using, say, Signal, which being OSS would likely have a single line I could comment out and compile for myself? How would I get busted for that? Or I could get clever and have AI generate some random chat text to send to the government while I send the actual text to my friends?

amarcheschi 1y ago
It doesn't say how AFAIK, although it's been a few months from when I read the original proposal. If I'm not wrong it would delegate that to service providers - the organizations managing the apps, telegram, meta, whatever the name of the foundation for the signal app is ecc
shark1 1y ago
It's like any other crime. They cannot stop you from stealing, for example. By doing it, you will not be a lawful citizen.
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  You mean "an illegal?"
  - bombela 1y ago
    nah they meant unlawful. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/unlawful https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/unlawful
    - AlecSchueler 1y ago
      I know. It was a pity comment born out of my frustration with certain classes of offenders being labelled as "illegals" while others are granted human-first language like "unlawful citizens." It wasn't a comment in keeping with the site guidelines but that was rooted in my continuing frustration with the community here denying the dehumanising nature of language like "illegals." I'm aware of the definition of unlawful but thank you for your effort and apologies for the wasted time.
rdm_blackhole 1y ago
This is only the first step in the process. First they will force all messaging/email providers to implement the scanning. Those who refuse or decide to leave the EU as Signal said they would do, would end up being unlisted from Google Play or the Apple (EU) app store. Then the second phase is coming by 2030. Read about the ProtectEU (what a fucking ridiculous name) proposal which will mandate the scanning on device and basically record everything you do on your device. This will be forced on Apple and other manufacturers directly.
- cbeach 1y ago
  ProtectEU sounds incredibly dark. Do you have a source for the information regarding on-device scanning? I had a look but only found the bureaucrat-speak overview and they didn’t discuss details.
  - nickslaughter02 1y ago
    I don't know about scanning (that's the goal of this proposal - ChatControl - including scanning of storage*) but ProtectEU involves creating hardware and software backdoors. * https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ , see the table "The Chat Control 2.0 proposal in detail" Technical experts call on Commissioner Virkkunen for a seat on the table of the European Commission’s Technology Roadmap on encryption https://edri.org/our-work/technical-experts-call-on-virkkunen-for-a-seat-on-the-table-european-commissions-technology-roadmap-on-encryption/ https://edri.org/our-work/technical-experts-call-on-virkkune... Concluding report of the High-Level Group on access to data for effective law enforcement https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/document/download/4802e306-c364-4154-835b-e986a9a49281_en?filename=Concluding%20Report%20of%20the%20HLG%20on%20access%20to%20data%20for%20effective%20law%20enforcement_en.pdf* https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/document/download/4802e306...
- pakitan 1y ago
  > Read about the ProtectEU (what a fucking ridiculous name) proposal which will mandate the scanning on device and basically record everything you do on your device. Where can we read about that? The official documents are quite vague and I don't see anything as specific as mandatory device scanning.
whatevaa 1y ago
You would get labeled a "potential criminal". See some comment from police labelling Graphene OS users as criminals. Steganography exists and is undefeatable, though very low bandwith.
dachris 1y ago
Hopefully it doesn't get implemented, but obviously they could force OS providers to implement this in Android and iOS.
rdm_blackhole 1y ago
Even if you compile your own version of Signal, will your friends do it too? Will your grandma/grandpa do it as well? It only takes one person in the chain to be compromised by using the "real" app and then all your efforts would be defeated because now your messages have been exposed by this other person unknowingly.
- JoshTriplett 1y ago
  > the "real" app The backdoored app will hopefully not be called Signal, since Signal themselves would never do this. I hope they own a trademark on it and could enforce it against anyone who would try to upload a backdoored version under their name.
  - rdm_blackhole 1y ago
    I used Signal as an example. People will use what is most convenient. If tomorrow Signal leaves the EU, WhatsApp will happily take its place and will happily enforce the scanning and everyone will just have to fall in line. What good is it if you are the only one of your family who has the only "uncompromised" app on your phone? How will you talk to them? Any message you send will be scanned on the other end. That also applies if you have friends overseas. Your friend from Japan/US will be compromised as well.
  - bqmjjx0kac 1y ago
    Well... "TM Signal" was just in the news. It's close enough I bet it could fool some percentage of otherwise security-conscious users. https://www.wired.com/story/tm-signal-telemessage-plaintext-message-archive/ https://www.wired.com/story/tm-signal-telemessage-plaintext-...
- bqmjjx0kac 1y ago
  Do phones have trusted execution environments? I suppose you could require the recipient provide attestation that it's running the expected binary. Of course, this is pointless if the hardware manufacturer shares their root keys with the government.
ncr100 1y ago
So stop them.

amarcheschi 1y ago

It doesn't say how AFAIK, although it's been a few months from when I read the original proposal. If I'm not wrong it would delegate that to service providers - the organizations managing the apps, telegram, meta, whatever the name of the foundation for the signal app is ecc

shark1 1y ago

It's like any other crime. They cannot stop you from stealing, for example. By doing it, you will not be a lawful citizen.

AlecSchueler 1y ago
You mean "an illegal?"
- bombela 1y ago
  nah they meant unlawful. https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/unlawful https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/unlawful
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    I know. It was a pity comment born out of my frustration with certain classes of offenders being labelled as "illegals" while others are granted human-first language like "unlawful citizens." It wasn't a comment in keeping with the site guidelines but that was rooted in my continuing frustration with the community here denying the dehumanising nature of language like "illegals." I'm aware of the definition of unlawful but thank you for your effort and apologies for the wasted time.

rdm_blackhole 1y ago

This is only the first step in the process. First they will force all messaging/email providers to implement the scanning. Those who refuse or decide to leave the EU as Signal said they would do, would end up being unlisted from Google Play or the Apple (EU) app store. Then the second phase is coming by 2030. Read about the ProtectEU (what a fucking ridiculous name) proposal which will mandate the scanning on device and basically record everything you do on your device. This will be forced on Apple and other manufacturers directly.

cbeach 1y ago
ProtectEU sounds incredibly dark. Do you have a source for the information regarding on-device scanning? I had a look but only found the bureaucrat-speak overview and they didn’t discuss details.
- nickslaughter02 1y ago
  I don't know about scanning (that's the goal of this proposal - ChatControl - including scanning of storage*) but ProtectEU involves creating hardware and software backdoors. * https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/chat-control/ , see the table "The Chat Control 2.0 proposal in detail" Technical experts call on Commissioner Virkkunen for a seat on the table of the European Commission’s Technology Roadmap on encryption https://edri.org/our-work/technical-experts-call-on-virkkunen-for-a-seat-on-the-table-european-commissions-technology-roadmap-on-encryption/ https://edri.org/our-work/technical-experts-call-on-virkkune... Concluding report of the High-Level Group on access to data for effective law enforcement https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/document/download/4802e306-c364-4154-835b-e986a9a49281_en?filename=Concluding%20Report%20of%20the%20HLG%20on%20access%20to%20data%20for%20effective%20law%20enforcement_en.pdf* https://home-affairs.ec.europa.eu/document/download/4802e306...
pakitan 1y ago
> Read about the ProtectEU (what a fucking ridiculous name) proposal which will mandate the scanning on device and basically record everything you do on your device. Where can we read about that? The official documents are quite vague and I don't see anything as specific as mandatory device scanning.

whatevaa 1y ago

You would get labeled a "potential criminal". See some comment from police labelling Graphene OS users as criminals. Steganography exists and is undefeatable, though very low bandwith.

dachris 1y ago

Hopefully it doesn't get implemented, but obviously they could force OS providers to implement this in Android and iOS.

rdm_blackhole 1y ago

Even if you compile your own version of Signal, will your friends do it too? Will your grandma/grandpa do it as well? It only takes one person in the chain to be compromised by using the "real" app and then all your efforts would be defeated because now your messages have been exposed by this other person unknowingly.

JoshTriplett 1y ago
> the "real" app The backdoored app will hopefully not be called Signal, since Signal themselves would never do this. I hope they own a trademark on it and could enforce it against anyone who would try to upload a backdoored version under their name.
- rdm_blackhole 1y ago
  I used Signal as an example. People will use what is most convenient. If tomorrow Signal leaves the EU, WhatsApp will happily take its place and will happily enforce the scanning and everyone will just have to fall in line. What good is it if you are the only one of your family who has the only "uncompromised" app on your phone? How will you talk to them? Any message you send will be scanned on the other end. That also applies if you have friends overseas. Your friend from Japan/US will be compromised as well.
- bqmjjx0kac 1y ago
  Well... "TM Signal" was just in the news. It's close enough I bet it could fool some percentage of otherwise security-conscious users. https://www.wired.com/story/tm-signal-telemessage-plaintext-message-archive/ https://www.wired.com/story/tm-signal-telemessage-plaintext-...
bqmjjx0kac 1y ago
Do phones have trusted execution environments? I suppose you could require the recipient provide attestation that it's running the expected binary. Of course, this is pointless if the hardware manufacturer shares their root keys with the government.

ncr100 1y ago

So stop them.