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I saw a bunch of people complaining on Twitter about how GPT-OSS can't be customized or has no soul and I noticed that none of them said what they were trying t
by wmf 1y ago
I saw a bunch of people complaining on Twitter about how GPT-OSS can't be customized or has no soul and I noticed that none of them said what they were trying to accomplish.
"The main use-case for fine-tuning small language models is for erotic role-play, and there’s a serious demand."
Ah.
- kristopolous 1y agoPorn is always the frontier. It's a well-understood self-contained use-case without many externalities and simple business models. What more, with porn, the medium is the product probably more than the content. Having it on home-media in the 80s was the selling point. Getting it over the 1-900 phone lines or accessing it over the internet ... these were arguably the actual product. It might have been a driver of early smart phone adoption as well. Adult content is about an 80% consumption on handheld devices while the internet writ large is about 60%. Private tunable multi-media interaction on-demand is the product here. Also it's a unique offer. Role playing prohibited sexual acts can be done arguably victim free. There's a good fiction story there... "I thought I was talking to AI"
- shortrounddev2 1y agoThere's something Freudian about the idea that the more you can customize porn, the more popular it is. That, despite the impression that "all men want one thing", it turns out that men all want very different and very oddly specific things. Imbuing somrthing with a "magical" quality that doesnt exist is the origin of the term "fetish". Its not about the raw attractive preference for a particular hair color; its a belief in the POWER of that hair color.
- kristopolous 1y agooh it's wildly different. About 15 years ago I worked on a porn recommendation system. The idea is that you'd follow a number of sites based on likes and recommendations and you'd get an aggregated feed with interstitial ads. So I started with scraping and cross-reference, foaf, doing analysis. People's preferences are ... really complex. Without getting too lewd, let's say there's about 30-80 categories with non-marginal demand depending on how you want to slice it and some of them can stack so you get a combinatoric. In early user testing people wanted the niche and found the adventurous (of their particular kind) to be more compelling. And that was the unpredictable part. The majoritarian categories didn't have stickiness. Nor did these niches have high correlation. Someone could be into say, specific topic A (let's say feet), and correlating that with topic B (let's say leather) was a dice roll. The probabilities were almost universally < 10% unless you went into majoritarian categories (eg. fit people in their 20s). People want adventure on a reservation with a very well defined perimeter - one that is hard to map and different for every person. So the value-add proposition went away since it's now just a collection of niche sites again. Also, these days people have Reddit accounts reserved for porn where they do exactly this. So it was built after all.
- kridsdale3 1y agoYou may be interested in the data surfaced by this large-scale survey[1] [1] https://aella.substack.com/p/fetish-tabooness-and-popularity-v3 https://aella.substack.com/p/fetish-tabooness-and-popularity...
- kristopolous 1y agoThis is interesting but there's a little more to it, especially with the erotic. If people were polled what they want to see on social media, few would say things that are inflammatory, upsetting, divisive, etc but those as we know are strong drivers of engagement. It's because you're polling for affinity or disclosed preference not for the actual engagement drivers. For instance, if a male says they watch male pornography, they are labeling, or at least stating an affinity to a sexual identity. However, the identities people choose to own are not the same as the preferences they actually have. Instead if you track things like scroll velocity, linger time, revisitation, the time distance (such as 2 days apart instead of 5 minutes) a different story emerges. For instance a given male could frequently look at male pornography but for all kinds of social reasons not want that affinity so they'd never even internally ideate the preference although their behavior of frequenting male content will be there regardless. That's one of the problems with this approach is that not many people want to own all the social identities which map to their preferences so they don't openly identify it. There (maybe) three levels of acceptance: admitting it to oneself, to others, identifying with it. And honestly these have a poor mapping to actual engagement with explicit content. You can have a (insert sexual affinity) rights activist who does not look at explicit content and someone protesting them who does all the time.
- tuatoru 1y ago1, Porn. 2 Military.
- slt2021 1y agoeven if it is victim free, it can affect mental health in a way that a consumer will be more compelled to do a criminal act and create a real victim. let's say you publish a Steam game how to be a school shooter and shoot kids, wouldn't that lead to real school shootings ? who can definitely say that computer generated content about criminal behavior, won't lead to real crime with real victims? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Shooter https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Shooter
- ses1984 1y agoWho can say that it does?
- kristopolous 1y agoI view it more like methadone. Let's be specific: Rape, incest, necrophilia, bestiality, and pedophila ideation. I think we can all agree (1) these are harmful, anti-social behaviors that we do not want in our society, (2) people don't choose to have these desires, (3) most people who have them have no desire to actually traumatize others, (4) people who have these struggle with it. These multi-media AI role-play environments would allow that type of engagement without any harm. Now given all this, I am not a psychologist and do not know if that's part of how someone unfortunate enough to have those inclinations can deal with it healthily. But if it is, now it exists and hopefully we can see less of it in the real world. I'm all for harm reduction if this is a way to get there.
- landl0rd 1y agoIt’s not unreasonable to suspect that engaging in high-fidelity simulations of these behaviors will further entrench and worsen paraphilias. This is pretty evident with the progression of many pornography addictions that don’t include these sorts of things that still follow the pattern of increasing novelty seeking leading to increasingly deviant stuff. I am at a principled level uneasy with what’s fundamentally a sort of prior restraint (you haven’t yet hurt anyone but this may increase the likelihood and/or be an effective proxy to lock up those who are more likely to do so) but also see a really strong case for doing it given the fact that these are arguably the most antisocial behaviors one can imagine.
- izabera 1y agowhat's the problem with that? we have erotic texts dating back thousands of years, basically as old as the act of writing itself https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_2461 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istanbul_2461
- philipkglass 1y agoThere's nothing wrong with it, but you have to understand the differences between different user groups to know which limitations are relevant to your own use cases. "It doesn't follow instructions" could mean "it won't pretend to be a horny elf" or "it hallucinates fields outside the JSON schema I specified"; the latter is much more of a problem for my uses.
- wmf 1y agoI have no problem with it and I can understand why people don't want to say "I'm trying to pornify this model and it refuses to talk dirty!" in public. But if you're calling a model garbage maybe you should be honest about what the "problem" is.
- lmm 1y agoWhy? Is there any reason to believe problems in that context won't generalise?
- j_timberlake 1y agoYou don't understand! Every erotic chatbot service keeps getting censored, what happened to CharacterAI just keeps happening. There's a serious supply-shortage, do you really want people turning to Grok? The spice must flow!!!
- sysmax 1y agoWant a good use case? I am playing around with interactive workflow where the model suggests what can be wrong with a particular chunk of code, then the user selects one of the options, and the model immediately implements the fix. Biggest problem? Total Wild West in terms of what the models try to suggest. Some models suggest short sentences, others spew out huge chunks at a time. GPT-OSS really likes using tables everywhere. Llama occasionally gets stuck in the loop of "memcpy() could be not what it seems and work differently than expected" followed by a handful of similar suggestions for other well-known library functions. I mostly got it to work with some creative prompt engineering and cross-validation, but having a model fine-tuned for giving reasonable suggestions that are easy to understand from a quick glance, would be way better.
- mh- 1y agoI haven't tried your exact task, of course, but I've found a lot of success in using JSON structured output (in strict mode), and decomposing the response into more fields than you would otherwise think useful. And making those fields highly specific. For example: make the suggestion output an object with multiple fields, naming one of them `concise_suggestion`. And make sure to take advantage of the `description` field. For people not already using structured output, both OpenAI and Anthropic consoles have a pretty good JSON schema generator (give prompt, get schema). I'd suggest using one of those as a starting point.
- anothernewdude 1y agoMy use case has been trying to remove the damn "apologies for this" and extraneous language that just waste tokens for no reason. GPT has always always always been so quick to waffle. And removing the chat interface as much as possible. Many benchmarks are better with text completion models, but they keep insisting on this horrible interface for their models. Fine tuning is there to ensure you get the output format you want without the extra garbage. I swear they have tuned their models to waste tokens.
- eru 1y ago> I swear they have tuned their models to waste tokens. Which seems a bit weird, because the customers of the chat interface (ie non-API customers) don't pay per token.
- setsewerd 1y agoI've heard the theory a few times lately that AI businesses will increasingly move towards usage models over subscription models, so while it is probably accidental, it could also be a longer term strategy to normalize excessive token usage.
- eru 1y agoI don't know whether the major AI companies will move to usage models. But let's assume that they do. However: I would expect chat interfaces to be charged per query, not per token. End users don't understand tokens, and don't want to have to understand tokens. If you charge per query, you don't gain anything from extra wordy responses.
- michaelt 1y agoThe jargon to google here is "length bias" It turns out if you generate two LLM responses and ask a judge to choose which is better, many judges have a bias in favour of long answers full of waffle.
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- sterlind 1y agoit's not erotic role-play, but I have a use case of making an AI-powered NetHack clone. specifically, to generate dungeon layouts, dialog for NPCs and to fill in the boatloads of minutae and interactions which NetHack is famous for. you kind of need soul for that, and a lot of background knowledge on mythology/fantasy lore, but also tool use to work the world systems.
- herval 1y agoWhere do you get started with something like this? Sounds like a fun project
- fho 1y agoAre you getting good results with this? Some time ago I build an "overworld simulator" by having a bunch if jsons that represented villages, characters, building, story hooks and plots. I just asked ChatGPT to "simulate the gameworld by a week". Technically this worked great, but everything was somewhat bland and generic. Noteable not-highlights: - there is a shimmer in the nearby forests that keep villagers up at night -> it's an orc camp - there is a mysterious figure in town -> it's a Aragon type ranger
- zacmps 1y agoMight be fixable with promoting and/or a much lower temperature?
- isoprophlex 1y agoI've had some success in letting it generate lists of things at high temperature and picking the last item in the list. Ask some model to generate a number uniformly between 0 and 100; you get 47 a lot. Or 27. Something like that. Ask it for a list of numbers, uniformly distributed, and it also often starts with the same number. However later elements in the sequence will converge (imperfectly) to a better approximation of uniformity. The same for names of the dwarves and paladins in your party.
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- wkat4242 1y agoIt's not just erotic role play that the censorship affects. My life involves a lot of sexual discussions and that means that everyday talk, chat summaries, email rewrites or translations will cause the model to shut down. I do the latter a lot especially to find colloquialisms because Google translate is often too literal. It's so annoying. Right now I'm using abliterated llama 3.1. I have no need for vision but I want to use the saved memory for more context so 3.2 is not so relevant. Llama 3.1 is perfect. But I want to try newer models too. Until gpt-oss can be uncensored it's no use to me. But if there was nothing erotic in its training data it can't be. And no, I never have it do erotic roleplay. I'm not really interested when there's no real people involved.
- jofzar 1y agoSorry just to ask, what kind of job do you have? Sex therapist sounds like the closest?
- itsdesmond 1y agoI don’t think they’re using it for work.
- wkat4242 1y agoCorrect, I'm just very kinky/bdsm/polyamorous and so are all my friends. I do have a sexuologist though, and I often write stuff up for her when she asks me to. Where the AI also comes in sometimes.
- Clueed 1y agoI found DeepSeek R1 (better for questions) and V3 (better for prose) to be very willing to discuss sex with a simple system prompt, as well as being very pleasant in articulation. I guess, I prefer them because they are almost SOTA and very large. Not through the official interface though. Needs to be hosted by a third party. OpenRouter has a generous free tier for both. I just saw that there is an abliterated version as well. Not sure how to try it though.
- nickpsecurity 1y agoMost use of small models was erotic roleplay back when I closely followed r/LocalLlama. Made me wonder if I should even make one if that's what most used it for. You might find this part funny. At first, I thought they had automated their coding for SAP or other ERP databases. Then, they started talking about how realistic the body parts were. I paused staring at the screen. The sad reality clicked.
- numpad0 1y agoMaybe I'm just not seeing it, but is that use case really real and not just prudish hallucinations? The market for NSFW novels is smaller than even cyberpunk paperbacks, there's no way everyday people build up addiction for an interactive version of it.
- cess11 1y agoThe claim that Fifty Shades of Grey and, I don't know, Norman Mailer?, Chuck Tingle?, are less common on book shelves and night stands than cyberpunk paperbacks seems obviously wrong to me. Perhaps you could elucidate further on this subject? I'm mostly into books from 1800-1985 or so and don't know much about contemporary literary fashion. Edit: Jean M Auel was extremely common in occidental households a few decades ago, especially the first and second books about Ayla, I'd wager much, much more common than cyberpunk. Same goes for books by Alex Comfort.
- amanaplanacanal 1y agoI suspect NSFW novels is a bigger market than you think. Spicy romantasy is popular among a certain set of readers.
- eddythompson80 1y agoNot NSFW, but I was surprised at hearing 2 random 20-something adults tell me they use chatgpt to write fan fiction to read. Those 2 people didn't know each other but were from similar demographic. It was surprising nonetheless. I can't imagine why anyone would care about such a bizarre use case.
- Al-Khwarizmi 1y ago[dead]
- Balinares 1y agoNot quite. The market for romance (which can, in fact, get arbitrary degrees of spicy) is by far the largest literary market. (Source: https://bookadreport.com/book-market-overview-authors-statistics-facts/ https://bookadreport.com/book-market-overview-authors-statis...) LLMs are also hilariously bad at what makes erotica hot in the first place.
- seydor 1y agoWhy would a language company censor language like that? I literally don't see the purpose. Plenty of the best novels have explicit scenes. I certainly don't like novels about infantilized adults. Search engines don't do that, so why do we allow AI companies to do that so blatantly. It's basically culture engineering
- subscribed 1y agoBecause it's naughty! US is.... prudish, to say the least.
- asdffdasy 1y agowhy everyone keep pretending very hard that this entire AI summer was not started exclusively by pioneers trying to perfect virtual girlfriend? it's a fact.
- subscribed 1y agoExisting models are more than good enough.
- vintermann 1y agoYes... Specifically by AI dungeon. He got dialog-tuning working (not without some hiccups) before anyone else, and it drew a lot of attention from the API provider. But then people used it for erotic RP, and it became a PR disaster, and the author blamed his pervert customers. Never mind that certain characters who turned up a lot in AI dungeon stories turned out to be from a fantasy writing site the author had used for fine-tuning material (without permission of course) and he hadn't filtered OUT the dirty stories to put it like that.
- simion314 1y agoWe use OpenAI API at work, it fails when translating children stories, the reason is violence. Either the model safety is shit or the AI companies are pushed by some extremists groups to censor shit that is acceptable for children in Europe (Romania). But the most bullshit is when you give it a safe prompt, the mdoel generates a response and the safety checker kicks in and blocks the response because it thinks the model was too naughty.
- throwaway98797 1y agoi tried creating a meme about retards and it refused. i’m an adult.
- GTP 1y agoWhy is being an adult relevant in any way?
- throwaway98797 1y agoonly kids have no-no words.
- GTP 1y agoI don't understand what you mean
- siva7 1y agoIt's not about role-play, it just should be a bit more into my language, that's all i ask for.