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Europe is breaking its reliance on American science
- givemeethekeys 1y agoYeah, just like they're breaking their reliance on the American military /s.
- surfsvammel 1y agoYes. Very similar actually. Most of Europe is increasing spending on military defence.
- xyzzzzzzz 1y agoSo they finally are doing what trump asked them to do?
- whynotmaybe 1y agoNo, they've been doing it since Russia's war in Ukraine. 3 days after the start of the invasion, Germany announced a €100 billion increase to military spending. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitenwende_speech https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeitenwende_speech
- tharne 1y agoThe fact that you think that's a big number just underscores how dire Europe's security situation is at the moment. One hundred billion Euros sounds like a lot, but China spends two and a half times that much on defense every single year, the U.S. spends 10X that much every single year, and even the Russians spend more than that every single year. Nevermind the fact Europe needs to play catch up here, not just keep pace.
- vikaveri 1y agoWikipedia says Russia spent 100 billion in 2023, so increase of 100 billion should be more than that don't you think? Are you misinformed or deliberately lying?
- chrisco255 1y agoYou have to adjust figures for PPP, or Purchasing Power Parity, due to exchange rate differences. In 2024, Russia's PPP adjusted military spend was somewhere between $300B and $400B [1][2]. Their technology is also vastly superior to Germany's and they have a much larger personnel. It doesn't matter how much you spend if you don't get your money's worth. The 100B euro investment was also a temporary one-off budget allocation that had been distributed over the past 2 years and to little effect: https://www.grosswald.org/eu100-billion-later-fixing-the-bundeswehr-wasnt-on-budget/ https://www.grosswald.org/eu100-billion-later-fixing-the-bun... [1] https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/debating-defence-budgets-why-military-purchasing-power-parity-matters https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/debating-defence-budgets-why-... [2] https://militaryppp.com/blog/ https://militaryppp.com/blog/
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- seydor 1y agoBy promising to buy more american weapons, more american LNG and investing in american companies. We europeans are having a really hard time breaking our US addiction. I mean what are we even doing in here
- bpodgursky 1y agoEurope is deciding that US technology addiction is better than Russian subjugation. It's not a time to be playing political games buying sub-par weapons. Bad for Saab, but that's reality. The world is dangerous again.
- alimw 1y agoIf your weapons can stop working according the whim of America, that would be seriously subpar.
- bpodgursky 1y agoThe reality is that European solidarity is not ironclad either. Is the US, or Germany, or Sweden more likely to fold and deactivate* weapon systems under nuclear blackmail? It sounds hypothetical but seriously, what would Gripen do if tactical nukes were dropped on Estonia and Putin threatened the same on Sweden if they didn't back off? I don't know, and you don't either. *I've not seen credible accusations this is possible, but assuming it is
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- jltsiren 1y agoThose "promises" were meaningless BS. Every European should know that the EU cannot make such promises, because it has no power in those matters. Defense policy is up to the member states, while investments and energy purchases are mostly made by private entities.
- givemeethekeys 1y ago*Most of Europe has promised to do something... in the glorious future, where anything is possible. Anything at all!
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- inejge 1y agoThose things take time and have an inertia in both branches: it's easier to continue using the existing resources than standing up your own, but once you're committed to developing a replacement it's not easy to stop. (EU already did it, however partially, with its own satellite navigation system.)
- pfdietz 1y agoYes, they will divert money from their social welfare spending into military spending any day now. Any. Day. Now.
- vouaobrasil 1y agoI think it makes sense. Europe and other countries need to boycott the US based on how the US is negatively affecting the world and driving consumption. Similar to how many countries boycotted Russia.
- linotype 1y agoYou really think what the US has done is remotely on par with what Russia is doing?
- bestouff 1y agoNot necessarily but nobody was trusting Russia.
- LaurensBER 1y agoNot at all but it seems reasonable to set some standards for the game (e.g supporting free trade) and stop playing with those that do not respect the rules. Unfortunately with both China and America not respecting the rules that's not realistic for Europe at the moment but one can dream.
- LarsKrimi 1y agoYes. Russia has been threatening invasions for years. Now for 7 months America has started doing it too. It's a much worse feeling being threatened with military invasion by someone your own government tries to continue insisting is a close ally
- vouaobrasil 1y agoAbsolutely, yes. In terms of encouraging environmental degradation, which to me is even worse than genocide in some ways (because it destroys our home, often permanently), it's up at the top!
- chrisco255 1y agoThe U.S. should pull out of NATO and leave Europe to deal with Russia, and the inevitable World War 3 that would ensue. The U.S. isn't driving consumption, we plateaued on that basis years ago. However, we're not so suicidal as the Europeans, who have resigned themselves to wring their hands and mock Americans as they get leapfrogged by China, India, and the rest of the rapidly developing world while contributing little but feckless regulatory edicts.
- richwater 1y ago> The United States funds 57% of Argo's $40 million annual operating expenses, while the EU funds 23%. Why the hell is the US on the hook for practically 2/3rds the cost of a system that monitors the entire worlds' ocean?
- bryanrasmussen 1y ago1. Why should the EU monitor the Pacific? The Pacific is big. 2. The EU claims the EU as its sphere of influence. The U.S claims The U.S and Central and South America by virtue of the Monroe Doctrine. 3. The U.S wanted to be in charge and be big and important, so if you want to be big and important you gotta do more. 4. The EU has military bases in the EU and the waters which touch the EU. The U.S has a military presence in every Ocean of the world.
- azinman2 1y ago> The EU has military bases in the EU and the waters which touch the EU. The U.S has a military presence in every Ocean of the world. UK/France and I’m sure others have bases all over the world.
- nosianu 1y agoBut that is their business and not the EU. And I have no idea why you included the UK anyway - not in the EU. Here is a list, by the way: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/overseas-military-bases-by-country https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/overseas-... Something else: Let's also ignore (or not) that the headline of the submission is waaayyy too grand for what's actually in the article. It's only about meteorological data collection. As important as it may be, there's a lot more science than that.
- bryanrasmussen 1y agoWell France does, I do forget how pugnacious they are at times. UK obviously doesn't matter in discussion of EU. However here is a list of countries with overseas military bases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_overseas_military_bases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_oversea... outside of France and Italy it seems all EU countries that have overseas military bases still have those bases in the EU, furthermore looking at that list you can see that the U.S has significantly more military bases in Europe than the EU countries have military bases outside of EUrope. on edit: so in conclusion I am sorry about forgetting that there was in total 6 military bases outside of Europe maintained by EU lands (hopefully haven't miscounted here)
- tharne 1y agoLol, I'll believe it when I see it. Is this the same Europe that despite everything going on in the world is: - Still buying Russian gas - Dependent on U.S. Military bases for their own security - Dependent on Chinese manufacturing for consumer goods - Dependent on the U.S. for software and cloud infrastructure - Dependent on the Chinese for computer hardware Best of luck Europe, you've had a good run, but you've gotten yourself into a fine mess here.
- lazyeye 1y agoYes the funding of Russia's war machine (by buying Russian energy) whilst expecting the US to fund the EU's defense takes some level of nerve. Nobody should take the EU seriously.
- AlecSchueler 1y agoCould you show the numbers in 2018 and the numbers in 2024 so we can compare?
- lazyeye 1y agoI guess I could but why would I bother?
- AlecSchueler 1y agoBecause it would become clear to yourself and to the rest of us how dramatically Europe has pivoted away from Russia.
- lazyeye 1y agoYes and quite possibly alot of this was due to US pressure. The EU has been quite happy to freeload till very recently. It's possible that Russia would not have invaded Ukraine at all if the EU hadnt been so weak militarily and so stupidly vulnerable by being dependent on Russia for energy.
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- pfdietz 1y agoI thought the results of science are free for everyone to see. That's how science works. So isn't it optimal to depend on science someone else does? They spend the money, but you both reap whatever knowledge is obtained.
- Rodmine 1y agoNo, “science” often produces results favourable to those who fund it.
- pfdietz 1y agoSo, the results aren't published? How is that consistent with how science is supposed to be done? Or do you mean there are spinoffs? But then how is science supposed to be superior at producing these compared to directed development of actually useful things?
- Rodmine 1y agoDepends. The control is on what research is done in the first place. For example, effectiveness of ivermectin was not even studied during Covid. New treatments that can be patented however was.
- atonse 1y agoThat’s what I thought. It’s nonsensical.
- foldr 1y agoIt doesn’t always work like that in practice. I can’t read a bunch of papers on fluid dynamics and composite materials and then build a modern airliner wing. If you fund the science, you get the experts.
- pfdietz 1y agoBut often it is like that. I point to the US before WW2, and China more recently. Scientific spending seems a consequence of economic dominance, not a cause. It's a kind of potlatch, a demonstration that the society has the money to burn for a status activity.
- jschveibinz 1y agoAs an American citizen and firm capitalist, I welcome a technically strong and united European ally that contributes to a majority of its own defense and to the production of new and useful technology to the rest of the world at a fair price. The U.S. wants strong allies and trading partners. WW2 was 80 years ago. It's time for Europe to reprioritize in favor of economic growth and development; deprioritize protectionism and bureaucracy; encourage investment in small businesses; unite politically instead of pretending to unite; and let go of the cultural past by looking to the future. The U.S. is always changing, and will always be changing. That's the nature of the country and the source of its strength. I'm ready for the downvotes--but I haven't said anything that is not true.
- foldr 1y agoI’m not sure how you summon up the nerve to ask Europeans to “deprioritize protectionism” given the economic policy of the current US administration. I think many Americans still don’t realize that the country has lost all credibility as an economic or societal model for others to follow. We can also add “unite politically” to the list.
- rwyinuse 1y agoNot all change is good though. Stuff like attaching green energy and branches of natural science for ideological reasons only makes America weaker, its plain idiocy. Making Europe pay more for its own defense is one of the few smart things Trump has done. The rest is almost universally harmful to both America and rest of the world.