4 ms·

What's stopping a large, profitable company like Valve from starting its own payment processor? Surely the technology part of it can't be an impossible hurdle.

ddtaylor 1y ago
I mean they kind of do. Most of the time I would hand wave away any company offering gift cards or credits, but Steam has created an economy / structure that I think warrants mentioning here. I have sold a few items on Steam because I don't care about cosmetics in games. I'm also lazy and because of that "sat" on items for a while that appreciated. I mention this because Steam credit is very fungible: it can be easily converted. Steam also makes it very easy to redeem credit, gift, etc. I believe you can buy Steam cards at most places Xbox cards and similar are sold as well. Also in the early days of Bitcoin buying and selling of digital Steam assets was one of the most popular things.
- Hamuko 1y ago
  I know that physical Steam gift cards exist but I've quite frankly never seen them anywhere. Nintendo/PlayStation/Xbox cards are pretty ubiquitous though. I recently tried getting a Steam one from a grocery store but they only had the console ones.
  - reginald78 1y ago
    I've definitely seen them. A quick search shows them available at BestBuy and Walmart at least.
    - Hamuko 1y ago
      I'm not American so I've never stepped inside a BestBuy and Walmart. The last place I checked was a Lidl, where they only had the console ones.
- ascagnel_ 1y ago
  On the other hand, I'm absolutely amazed some US states hasn't yet gone after Valve for running an unlicensed casino with no age verification.
  - ddtaylor 1y ago
    I think loot boxes as a whole need to be regulated as they are clearly gambling. I'm not a fan of regulation as a solution to most problems, but when it involves children I think it sets a good framework for safety and if someone wants to start gambling later they are free to do so.
    - ascagnel_ 1y ago
      Valve goes one step beyond loot boxes with their marketplace: you get a loot box, pay to open it (basically a slot machine spin), and you get an item in a "game of chance" -- but that item is a "thing of value" that can be sold on Valve's official, first-party marketplace. Every definition of gambling I've seen includes some variation of "winning a thing of value from a game of chance", and while loot boxes for in-game rewards skirt that (the thing you're getting is typically described in the fine-print as having no monetary value), Valve's user-driven marketplace is setting a real-world value. Put another way: EA FC's card packs or Genshin Impact's gacha spins are worth nothing outside of those games, but I've sold Counter-Strike skins to pay for a decent chunk of my Steam Deck.
mschild 1y ago
Adoption. You'd have to onboard hundreds/thousands of banks and terminal providers so they accept/give out your card. I excpect the underlying technical stuff isn't that hard compared to getting people and companies to actually use it.
- scotty79 1y ago
  Aren't cards last century technology? I'm paying with my phone anyways. Seller can use phone as well. Why does it need to involve incumbent banks and terminal providers at all? If Valve started something like that the banks would bang on its door relentlessly just to not be left out of the loop. Gaming is the business bigger than movies, music and books combined and Valve is Google of games.
  - Jensson 1y ago
    > Gaming is the business bigger than movies, music and books combined and Valve is Google of games. Valve is not Google of games, the app stores Google and Apple has dwarfs steam sales and the individual game consoles are similar size as the steam store. > I'm paying with my phone anyways Right, since the phone ecosystem is large enough to be its own payment processor, unlike steam.
    - scotty79 1y ago
      Phone is the platform. You can put any payment system there. In various countries it was figured out in a lot of different ways. Valve with global reach could really compete. Also Google Play store might have more consumers and or sales but they are of worse quality. It's scummy, it's exploitative. The whole system is propped up by whales decieved by gambling mechanics and deceptive ads. It's nowhere close to real world economy. Valve is much closer. Despite using Play Store since it came to existance I never paid for anything on Google Play because I don't trust it enough to add a single payment method there.
  - mpalmer 1y ago
    You should maybe look up how paying with your phone works. And what in your mind is the thing banks will be begging Steam to be let in on? This reads like payment processing fan fiction.
raincole 1y ago
You mean Valve, the company that has been intentionally keeping itself lean to the point they only have 300 employees? (Visa employee count: 30,000+)
kasey_junk 1y ago
If you believe Steam et al, the payment processors are bowing to the card networks in this. So being a payment processor wouldn’t help. You need to sidestep the networks. In the US that means either dealing with ACH at scale, which is a challenge, building a new card networks (which is hard) or only using alternative payment methods such as bnpl or crypto. Each of those will limit your buyers, which as a merchant is a tough business decision.
- benterix 1y ago
  > In the US that means either dealing with ACH at scale, which is a challenge, building a new card networks (which is hard) Which is why someone has big interest in keeping it this way as in Europe practically every country solved this issue a long time ago and people do daily shopping completely omitting Visa/Mastercard. They try to fight back without much success.
  - kasey_junk 1y ago
    Europe is not a monolith on this. You see utilization rates going as high as 75% in Europe for credit cards, so in those countries merchants would have similar choices to American merchants. That’s before accounting for debit cards which use the main network rails. And most of the alternatives are either government controlled and thus subject to different censorship concerns or private (for instance bnpl) and subject to the same. That is to say people seem to be dancing around there being some fundamental right to transact. Thats not one of the traditional rights and not one that is codified most places (anyplace?).
IshKebab 1y ago
How would that help? Then MasterCard would drop them directly.
- WolfRazu 1y ago
  Well in this case MasterCard is claiming it wasn't them, but their intermediary.
  - IshKebab 1y ago
    Sure but also in this case MasterCard are clearly full of shit.
  - immibis 1y ago
    Because in this case it wasn't them, but their intermediary. However, in another case, where there was no intermediary, it would be them, not their intermediary. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/nYJaDnGNQGiaCBSB5/accountability-sinks https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/nYJaDnGNQGiaCBSB5/accountabi...
giantg2 1y ago
If they start their own payment processing company, they will then be subject to the same laws and regulations and the existing processing companies. Who manages the money doesn't matter. Even if you use Crypto, Steam would still remove the games due to the Australian law.
- raincole 1y ago
  Steam didn't remove the games due to Australian law lol. Where did you get this idea? Steam games' availability is per-country. They could've removed games for Australian users only. NSFW games are not shown to Chinese and German players on Steam since forever.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    "lol" This whole thing came about because of the Australian campaign to remove rape games consistent with law. Payment processors could be found liable for processing payments related to illegal activities. Steam anad the payment processors could have made it region specific, but didn't, probably for PR reasons. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_in_Australia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_i... Also, Steam Direct didn't update their policy on game content from what I see. Doesn't look like Steam fought back. Seems as though Steam has never supported games with rape, incest, child exploitation, etc.
Moomoomoo309 1y ago
The regulatory environment is absolutely insane. The things you'd need to do to interoperate are nightmarish, it's damn close to an impossible hurdle. (I work at a fintech company)
nullc 1y ago
It's basically impossible from a regulatory perspective. Paypal exists because it broke the law, was prosecuted, and the outcome of the prosecution fined them heavily but also grandfathered their existence. Anyone who wants to make a new payment processor likely has to take a risk of going to prison.
nonameiguess 1y ago
This entire situation is badly misunderstood all over the Internet. As the article itself states, alternative payment processors that are used primarily for adult content already exist. CC Bill was the example given. And they accept Visa and Mastercard. They're used by websites with plenty of explicit adult content, including simulated rape, incest, and "teen" porn. It isn't Visa and Mastercard forbidding this. In this case, it's Stripe, though it seems likely they're doing it because of pressure from Mastercard, which in turn received pressure targeting these particular platforms from some advocacy group in Australia. But itch.io and Stream could still use CC Bill, and customers would still be able to pay with Visa and Mastercard. The reason mainstream websites don't use CC Bill and it is used almost exclusively for porn, is because they charge a lot more than Stripe and the more mainstream payment processors do. There isn't really a ban on this kind of material, provided the platform hosting it is willing to use alternative processors, so much as a price increase. Even with Pornhub and OnlyFans debacles, they never hosted content that can't be found elsewhere on sites that allow you to pay with Visa and Mastercard. The reason those platforms were targeted was never the content itself, but non-compliance with rules that professional studios have always had to abide by requiring they keep copies of government-issued ID of all performers and provide those to any viewer who asks for it, in order to be able to prove they aren't accidentally hosting content with children or otherwise non-consenting performers. Ultimately, if a website wants to host content with a guy taking a shit on his twin underage daughters, they can do that, and you can pay for it with Visa and Mastercard, as long as they use something like CC Bill for processing and they keep adequate records enabling them to prove the "underage" characters and not actually played by underage performers, and the people involved aren't actually related. Or, maybe more precisely, you can have real twins in a scene together, but you're then limited by byzantine country-by-country laws I have no personal knowledge of regarding what they are and are not allowed to do together that counts as sex. The Internet is where nuance goes to die, so this all gets distilled down to "Visa and Mastercard don't allow you to buy porn" by the time most people find out about any of it.

ddtaylor 1y ago

I mean they kind of do. Most of the time I would hand wave away any company offering gift cards or credits, but Steam has created an economy / structure that I think warrants mentioning here. I have sold a few items on Steam because I don't care about cosmetics in games. I'm also lazy and because of that "sat" on items for a while that appreciated. I mention this because Steam credit is very fungible: it can be easily converted. Steam also makes it very easy to redeem credit, gift, etc. I believe you can buy Steam cards at most places Xbox cards and similar are sold as well. Also in the early days of Bitcoin buying and selling of digital Steam assets was one of the most popular things.

Hamuko 1y ago
I know that physical Steam gift cards exist but I've quite frankly never seen them anywhere. Nintendo/PlayStation/Xbox cards are pretty ubiquitous though. I recently tried getting a Steam one from a grocery store but they only had the console ones.
- reginald78 1y ago
  I've definitely seen them. A quick search shows them available at BestBuy and Walmart at least.
  - Hamuko 1y ago
    I'm not American so I've never stepped inside a BestBuy and Walmart. The last place I checked was a Lidl, where they only had the console ones.
ascagnel_ 1y ago
On the other hand, I'm absolutely amazed some US states hasn't yet gone after Valve for running an unlicensed casino with no age verification.
- ddtaylor 1y ago
  I think loot boxes as a whole need to be regulated as they are clearly gambling. I'm not a fan of regulation as a solution to most problems, but when it involves children I think it sets a good framework for safety and if someone wants to start gambling later they are free to do so.
  - ascagnel_ 1y ago
    Valve goes one step beyond loot boxes with their marketplace: you get a loot box, pay to open it (basically a slot machine spin), and you get an item in a "game of chance" -- but that item is a "thing of value" that can be sold on Valve's official, first-party marketplace. Every definition of gambling I've seen includes some variation of "winning a thing of value from a game of chance", and while loot boxes for in-game rewards skirt that (the thing you're getting is typically described in the fine-print as having no monetary value), Valve's user-driven marketplace is setting a real-world value. Put another way: EA FC's card packs or Genshin Impact's gacha spins are worth nothing outside of those games, but I've sold Counter-Strike skins to pay for a decent chunk of my Steam Deck.

mschild 1y ago

Adoption. You'd have to onboard hundreds/thousands of banks and terminal providers so they accept/give out your card. I excpect the underlying technical stuff isn't that hard compared to getting people and companies to actually use it.

scotty79 1y ago
Aren't cards last century technology? I'm paying with my phone anyways. Seller can use phone as well. Why does it need to involve incumbent banks and terminal providers at all? If Valve started something like that the banks would bang on its door relentlessly just to not be left out of the loop. Gaming is the business bigger than movies, music and books combined and Valve is Google of games.
- Jensson 1y ago
  > Gaming is the business bigger than movies, music and books combined and Valve is Google of games. Valve is not Google of games, the app stores Google and Apple has dwarfs steam sales and the individual game consoles are similar size as the steam store. > I'm paying with my phone anyways Right, since the phone ecosystem is large enough to be its own payment processor, unlike steam.
  - scotty79 1y ago
    Phone is the platform. You can put any payment system there. In various countries it was figured out in a lot of different ways. Valve with global reach could really compete. Also Google Play store might have more consumers and or sales but they are of worse quality. It's scummy, it's exploitative. The whole system is propped up by whales decieved by gambling mechanics and deceptive ads. It's nowhere close to real world economy. Valve is much closer. Despite using Play Store since it came to existance I never paid for anything on Google Play because I don't trust it enough to add a single payment method there.
- mpalmer 1y ago
  You should maybe look up how paying with your phone works. And what in your mind is the thing banks will be begging Steam to be let in on? This reads like payment processing fan fiction.

raincole 1y ago

You mean Valve, the company that has been intentionally keeping itself lean to the point they only have 300 employees? (Visa employee count: 30,000+)

kasey_junk 1y ago

If you believe Steam et al, the payment processors are bowing to the card networks in this. So being a payment processor wouldn’t help. You need to sidestep the networks. In the US that means either dealing with ACH at scale, which is a challenge, building a new card networks (which is hard) or only using alternative payment methods such as bnpl or crypto. Each of those will limit your buyers, which as a merchant is a tough business decision.

benterix 1y ago
> In the US that means either dealing with ACH at scale, which is a challenge, building a new card networks (which is hard) Which is why someone has big interest in keeping it this way as in Europe practically every country solved this issue a long time ago and people do daily shopping completely omitting Visa/Mastercard. They try to fight back without much success.
- kasey_junk 1y ago
  Europe is not a monolith on this. You see utilization rates going as high as 75% in Europe for credit cards, so in those countries merchants would have similar choices to American merchants. That’s before accounting for debit cards which use the main network rails. And most of the alternatives are either government controlled and thus subject to different censorship concerns or private (for instance bnpl) and subject to the same. That is to say people seem to be dancing around there being some fundamental right to transact. Thats not one of the traditional rights and not one that is codified most places (anyplace?).

IshKebab 1y ago

How would that help? Then MasterCard would drop them directly.

WolfRazu 1y ago
Well in this case MasterCard is claiming it wasn't them, but their intermediary.
- IshKebab 1y ago
  Sure but also in this case MasterCard are clearly full of shit.
- immibis 1y ago
  Because in this case it wasn't them, but their intermediary. However, in another case, where there was no intermediary, it would be them, not their intermediary. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/nYJaDnGNQGiaCBSB5/accountability-sinks https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/nYJaDnGNQGiaCBSB5/accountabi...

giantg2 1y ago

If they start their own payment processing company, they will then be subject to the same laws and regulations and the existing processing companies. Who manages the money doesn't matter. Even if you use Crypto, Steam would still remove the games due to the Australian law.

raincole 1y ago
Steam didn't remove the games due to Australian law lol. Where did you get this idea? Steam games' availability is per-country. They could've removed games for Australian users only. NSFW games are not shown to Chinese and German players on Steam since forever.
- giantg2 1y ago
  "lol" This whole thing came about because of the Australian campaign to remove rape games consistent with law. Payment processors could be found liable for processing payments related to illegal activities. Steam anad the payment processors could have made it region specific, but didn't, probably for PR reasons. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_in_Australia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_banned_video_games_i... Also, Steam Direct didn't update their policy on game content from what I see. Doesn't look like Steam fought back. Seems as though Steam has never supported games with rape, incest, child exploitation, etc.

Moomoomoo309 1y ago

The regulatory environment is absolutely insane. The things you'd need to do to interoperate are nightmarish, it's damn close to an impossible hurdle. (I work at a fintech company)

nullc 1y ago

It's basically impossible from a regulatory perspective. Paypal exists because it broke the law, was prosecuted, and the outcome of the prosecution fined them heavily but also grandfathered their existence. Anyone who wants to make a new payment processor likely has to take a risk of going to prison.

nonameiguess 1y ago

This entire situation is badly misunderstood all over the Internet. As the article itself states, alternative payment processors that are used primarily for adult content already exist. CC Bill was the example given. And they accept Visa and Mastercard. They're used by websites with plenty of explicit adult content, including simulated rape, incest, and "teen" porn. It isn't Visa and Mastercard forbidding this. In this case, it's Stripe, though it seems likely they're doing it because of pressure from Mastercard, which in turn received pressure targeting these particular platforms from some advocacy group in Australia. But itch.io and Stream could still use CC Bill, and customers would still be able to pay with Visa and Mastercard. The reason mainstream websites don't use CC Bill and it is used almost exclusively for porn, is because they charge a lot more than Stripe and the more mainstream payment processors do. There isn't really a ban on this kind of material, provided the platform hosting it is willing to use alternative processors, so much as a price increase. Even with Pornhub and OnlyFans debacles, they never hosted content that can't be found elsewhere on sites that allow you to pay with Visa and Mastercard. The reason those platforms were targeted was never the content itself, but non-compliance with rules that professional studios have always had to abide by requiring they keep copies of government-issued ID of all performers and provide those to any viewer who asks for it, in order to be able to prove they aren't accidentally hosting content with children or otherwise non-consenting performers. Ultimately, if a website wants to host content with a guy taking a shit on his twin underage daughters, they can do that, and you can pay for it with Visa and Mastercard, as long as they use something like CC Bill for processing and they keep adequate records enabling them to prove the "underage" characters and not actually played by underage performers, and the people involved aren't actually related. Or, maybe more precisely, you can have real twins in a scene together, but you're then limited by byzantine country-by-country laws I have no personal knowledge of regarding what they are and are not allowed to do together that counts as sex. The Internet is where nuance goes to die, so this all gets distilled down to "Visa and Mastercard don't allow you to buy porn" by the time most people find out about any of it.