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The problem here though is what will ever give Israel confidence that Oct 7 will never happen again? We know that going after terrorists for years and killing t

by brentm 1y ago

The problem here though is what will ever give Israel confidence that Oct 7 will never happen again? We know that going after terrorists for years and killing them just creates more terrorists (Iraq, Afghanistan). The young children who do not end up dying of starvation will be men in 20 years, still in Gaza with no options to leave and resent Israel who they will consider to be effectively their jailer. The situation is just untenable. I don't like to think that the result of Oct 7 is a more open Gaza but I don't really know what other options Israel has. Hamas obviously started this but Israel won the war a long time ago. The world deserves an end. The longer it goes on the more Hamas will actually have achieved some kind of lasting positive image of Gaza which is rooted in their actions on Oct 7th and that would be an incredibly bad outcome for all.

bluecheese452 1y ago
We don’t know this. There are several wealthy nations that have produced many terrorists and several poor nations that have produced none. The most famous terrorist in history was a wealthy man from a wealthy nation.
- giardini 1y ago
  Whom do you refer to as "the most famous terrorist in history"?
  - aspenmayer 1y ago
    Considering that they mention his family wealth, I can only assume that they mean Osama bin Laden. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden
    - bluecheese452 1y ago
      Yep that is who I meant.
      - nandomrumber 1y ago
        Why do that? If you mean to say something, go ahead and say it.
        aspenmayer 1y ago
        I knew with reasonable certainty who they were alluding to, so I didn’t read it as them being vague to be honest, more literary.
        nandomrumber 1y ago
        I had to look it up, and probably wasn’t the only one.
        aspenmayer 1y ago
        I had to think for a moment myself, and I had to look it up to make sure I got the capitalization right so that’s fair.
        bluecheese452 1y ago
        No.
ashoeafoot 1y ago
[flagged]
prepend 1y ago
> what will ever give Israel confidence that Oct 7 will never happen again? No Hamas in power? Seems like that would give pretty good confidence. This reminds me of alternate history stories where Japan refused to surrender. The US demanded unconditional surrender in WW2. What would have happened if the axis refused. What would have made the allies confident that the war was over without German and Japanese unconditional surrender. It seems like Hamas is not surrendering and Israel is demanding that. If Hamas surrendered and left power, would that appease Israel?
- gmueckl 1y ago
  I don't see why the result of a Hamas surrender wouldn't be a new organization with the same goals and methods. A surrender by itself is just a formality. But what is the real plan here? What would realistically come after that and how scary/brutal would it be?
  - dlubarov 1y ago
    Realistically, I think the plan is just reoccupation of Gaza. The military presence would make it harder for Hamas-like organizations to organize and assemble rockets etc. It might be something like pre-2005 Gaza.
- crote 1y ago
  So who will be in power? You've got to remember that Hamas was democratically elected back in 2006, and its main rival Fatah isn't exactly pro-Israel either. Given the circumstances, I don't think there could possibly be a democratically elected government in Gaza which is pro-Israel or even neutral-Israel. Your only option is a puppet dictatorship government installed by Israel - but that's not really going to improve the situation, is it? Besides, you've got to remember that a country is more than its government. What's going to stop its citizens from independently creating their own underground Hamas 2.0 terror group? What's going to stop the kids currently growing up and seeing their parents die due to Israeli actions from wanting revenge? The situation is too far gone. Either Israel is going to learn how to live with the possibility of an attack (which is going to decrease over time as generations grow up who don't inherently hate Israel with every bone in their body for what it has done to them), or Israel is going to have to kill every single person in Gaza to make sure there's nobody left who could hate them. They should probably continue with Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt - because they all could attack Israel, after all... France still has to live with the risk of Germany invading. It's fairly unlikely by now, but that risk exists. Germany has invaded multiple times in the not-too-distant past and done some pretty atrocious things while there. Germany still has a pretty large military, and I would be quite surprised if they didn't have some kind of invasion plan lying around in a drawer somewhere. Yet somehow, I don't think the average French citizen in 2025 loses any sleep over it. If they can live with the risk, why does Israel require absolutes?
corimaith 1y ago
[flagged]
- brentm 1y ago
  The only option for long term peace though is to just get back to that arrangement with a new group in power in Gaza.
  - corimaith 1y ago
    That runs counter to the goals of the Palestinians. What happens if they reject this "new group" in favour of Hamas? If you are going to spend that kind of immense political capital to invade and occupy a foreign state you'd better off doing to actual threats like Iran or Russia.
    - brentm 1y ago
      Not Israelis, A new group of their own people. It would need to be a group willing to walk the slow road to peace that will be necessary to regain the trust of Israel. If Israel occupies Gaza long term it will never work for anyone.
- piva00 1y ago
  It's the direct result of the political ambitions of Netanyahu, using Hamas as a wedge for Palestinians to have less power[0][1]. > According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. Oct 7th is the direct result of a policy to keep Palestinians out of a two-state solution, it's the direct result of Netanyahu's politics play. [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... [1] https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082 https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-...
ohdeargodno 1y ago
>what will ever give Israel confidence that Oct 7 will never happen again Why are you asking "what will give the genocidal state confidence", and not bothering for a single second about what will give the hundred of thousands of permanently traumatised, hurt and dead Palestinians confidence that their genocidal neighbours will not do it again ? >still in Gaza with no options to leave and resent Israel who they will consider to be effectively their jailer. Which, yes, is the reason for October 7. Seems like oppressing a people (that already doesn't particularly like you for various reasons) has consequences. Unfortunately, these consequences land on civilians. Breeding the conditions for Hamas (and soon enough Hamas 2 provided the Gazan population isn't dead from famine within the next few months) > I don't like to think that the result of Oct 7 is a more open Gaza but I don't really know what other options Israel has. Why do you not enjoy the idea of giving a group independence and ownership over the land that has been theirs for centuries ? >Hamas obviously started this but Israel won the war a long time ago. Opening history books would tend to show that it started over 70 years ago with the forced resettlement of Palestinians already living within the protectorate (land already stolen from them), the colonization of Gaza, Golan heights, the nakba and the repeated offensives on Gaza and Cisjordania as well as the assassinations of multiple political leaders (both Palestinian and Israeli), but I guess the Israeli propaganda that Oct 7 started it all has taken root. >The world deserves an end. Your feelings about seeing this ongoing conflict doesn't really matter. Palestinians deserve an end to this suffering. The Israelis not supporting the ongoing genocide deserve an end to the conflict. The world has nothing to do with this. >The longer it goes on the more Hamas will actually have achieved some kind of lasting positive image of Gaza which is rooted in their actions on Oct 7th and that would be an incredibly bad outcome for all. You do realize that Hamas is getting a positive image despite being literal terrorists embezzling money and food from the Gaza population and establishing a dictatorship because the "only democracy in the middle east" is committing a genocide, right ? Genocide supported by the vast majority of the Israeli government, as well as the Knesset ? This situation ends in two ways: either the Palestinians disappear, or Israel disappears. With their recent actions, they've ensured that a two state solution is impossible. Of course, the likelihood of Israel being destroyed is almost nil, so the only way this happens is a single state where both arabs and jews live equally and freely (and most likely under HEAVY international peacekeeping missions), but the ethnostate proponents are slightly iffy about this proposition.

by brentm 1y ago

bluecheese452 1y ago

We don’t know this. There are several wealthy nations that have produced many terrorists and several poor nations that have produced none. The most famous terrorist in history was a wealthy man from a wealthy nation.

giardini 1y ago
Whom do you refer to as "the most famous terrorist in history"?
- aspenmayer 1y ago
  Considering that they mention his family wealth, I can only assume that they mean Osama bin Laden. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden
  - bluecheese452 1y ago
    Yep that is who I meant.
    - nandomrumber 1y ago
      Why do that? If you mean to say something, go ahead and say it.
      - aspenmayer 1y ago
        I knew with reasonable certainty who they were alluding to, so I didn’t read it as them being vague to be honest, more literary.
        nandomrumber 1y ago
        I had to look it up, and probably wasn’t the only one.
        aspenmayer 1y ago
        I had to think for a moment myself, and I had to look it up to make sure I got the capitalization right so that’s fair.
      - bluecheese452 1y ago
        No.

ashoeafoot 1y ago

[flagged]

prepend 1y ago

> what will ever give Israel confidence that Oct 7 will never happen again? No Hamas in power? Seems like that would give pretty good confidence. This reminds me of alternate history stories where Japan refused to surrender. The US demanded unconditional surrender in WW2. What would have happened if the axis refused. What would have made the allies confident that the war was over without German and Japanese unconditional surrender. It seems like Hamas is not surrendering and Israel is demanding that. If Hamas surrendered and left power, would that appease Israel?

gmueckl 1y ago
I don't see why the result of a Hamas surrender wouldn't be a new organization with the same goals and methods. A surrender by itself is just a formality. But what is the real plan here? What would realistically come after that and how scary/brutal would it be?
- dlubarov 1y ago
  Realistically, I think the plan is just reoccupation of Gaza. The military presence would make it harder for Hamas-like organizations to organize and assemble rockets etc. It might be something like pre-2005 Gaza.
crote 1y ago
So who will be in power? You've got to remember that Hamas was democratically elected back in 2006, and its main rival Fatah isn't exactly pro-Israel either. Given the circumstances, I don't think there could possibly be a democratically elected government in Gaza which is pro-Israel or even neutral-Israel. Your only option is a puppet dictatorship government installed by Israel - but that's not really going to improve the situation, is it? Besides, you've got to remember that a country is more than its government. What's going to stop its citizens from independently creating their own underground Hamas 2.0 terror group? What's going to stop the kids currently growing up and seeing their parents die due to Israeli actions from wanting revenge? The situation is too far gone. Either Israel is going to learn how to live with the possibility of an attack (which is going to decrease over time as generations grow up who don't inherently hate Israel with every bone in their body for what it has done to them), or Israel is going to have to kill every single person in Gaza to make sure there's nobody left who could hate them. They should probably continue with Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt - because they all could attack Israel, after all... France still has to live with the risk of Germany invading. It's fairly unlikely by now, but that risk exists. Germany has invaded multiple times in the not-too-distant past and done some pretty atrocious things while there. Germany still has a pretty large military, and I would be quite surprised if they didn't have some kind of invasion plan lying around in a drawer somewhere. Yet somehow, I don't think the average French citizen in 2025 loses any sleep over it. If they can live with the risk, why does Israel require absolutes?

corimaith 1y ago

[flagged]

brentm 1y ago
The only option for long term peace though is to just get back to that arrangement with a new group in power in Gaza.
- corimaith 1y ago
  That runs counter to the goals of the Palestinians. What happens if they reject this "new group" in favour of Hamas? If you are going to spend that kind of immense political capital to invade and occupy a foreign state you'd better off doing to actual threats like Iran or Russia.
  - brentm 1y ago
    Not Israelis, A new group of their own people. It would need to be a group willing to walk the slow road to peace that will be necessary to regain the trust of Israel. If Israel occupies Gaza long term it will never work for anyone.
piva00 1y ago
It's the direct result of the political ambitions of Netanyahu, using Hamas as a wedge for Palestinians to have less power[0][1]. > According to various reports, Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. Oct 7th is the direct result of a policy to keep Palestinians out of a two-state solution, it's the direct result of Netanyahu's politics play. [0] https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up... [1] https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-to-hamas-part-of-strategy-to-keep-palestinians-divided-583082 https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/netanyahu-money-...

ohdeargodno 1y ago

>what will ever give Israel confidence that Oct 7 will never happen again Why are you asking "what will give the genocidal state confidence", and not bothering for a single second about what will give the hundred of thousands of permanently traumatised, hurt and dead Palestinians confidence that their genocidal neighbours will not do it again ? >still in Gaza with no options to leave and resent Israel who they will consider to be effectively their jailer. Which, yes, is the reason for October 7. Seems like oppressing a people (that already doesn't particularly like you for various reasons) has consequences. Unfortunately, these consequences land on civilians. Breeding the conditions for Hamas (and soon enough Hamas 2 provided the Gazan population isn't dead from famine within the next few months) > I don't like to think that the result of Oct 7 is a more open Gaza but I don't really know what other options Israel has. Why do you not enjoy the idea of giving a group independence and ownership over the land that has been theirs for centuries ? >Hamas obviously started this but Israel won the war a long time ago. Opening history books would tend to show that it started over 70 years ago with the forced resettlement of Palestinians already living within the protectorate (land already stolen from them), the colonization of Gaza, Golan heights, the nakba and the repeated offensives on Gaza and Cisjordania as well as the assassinations of multiple political leaders (both Palestinian and Israeli), but I guess the Israeli propaganda that Oct 7 started it all has taken root. >The world deserves an end. Your feelings about seeing this ongoing conflict doesn't really matter. Palestinians deserve an end to this suffering. The Israelis not supporting the ongoing genocide deserve an end to the conflict. The world has nothing to do with this. >The longer it goes on the more Hamas will actually have achieved some kind of lasting positive image of Gaza which is rooted in their actions on Oct 7th and that would be an incredibly bad outcome for all. You do realize that Hamas is getting a positive image despite being literal terrorists embezzling money and food from the Gaza population and establishing a dictatorship because the "only democracy in the middle east" is committing a genocide, right ? Genocide supported by the vast majority of the Israeli government, as well as the Knesset ? This situation ends in two ways: either the Palestinians disappear, or Israel disappears. With their recent actions, they've ensured that a two state solution is impossible. Of course, the likelihood of Israel being destroyed is almost nil, so the only way this happens is a single state where both arabs and jews live equally and freely (and most likely under HEAVY international peacekeeping missions), but the ethnostate proponents are slightly iffy about this proposition.