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I don't understand why they need apps for this either. The infrastructure should be in place to detect cars approaching from the side street. Once they have the

I don't understand why they need apps for this either. The infrastructure should be in place to detect cars approaching from the side street. Once they have the ability to detect cars, it's simple to assume everyone would be requesting a green light.

bluecalm 1y ago
We have those in Poland. Sucks if you are on a bike. You need to wait for a car to turn it green for you.
- 6510 1y ago
  In the Netherlands we have ones that detect warm bodies.
  - hobofan 1y ago
    Sucks if you are a zombie...
    - vrosas 1y ago
      Here in Zombieland we have cameras that can detect any bipedal movement.
      - arjvik 1y ago
        Sucks if you drive a car
  - AlecSchueler 1y ago
    There's a road closure near me here in Rotterdam which has encouraged some people to get around it by cycling on a short patch of the tram track. It's quite funny to hear the "tram approaching" bell ringing only to look and see a small boy on his bike.
- toast0 1y ago
  If they're using inductive vehicle detector loops in the pavement, those can be tuned to detect motorcycles and bicycles (probably not carbon fiber bikes though). Where I've seen and used loops tuned for bicycles, they have a different cut pattern and a painted bike to accent positions where the detector is likely to detect you... Sadly, they don't tend to have far back detectors (advance loops) tuned for bikes so an idle intersection won't be green when you get there like if you were a car. You can sometimes get a detection on a car tuned detector by riding right on top of the wire, but it's iffy. I'd imagine camera detectors can be tuned for bicyclists as well, but I have less experience with those. Here's a nice survey of bicycle detection options [1], if you're willing to work with whoever does traffic control near you, this might help get a conversation started. This is focused on US applications, but the ideas should be broadly applicable. [1] https://altago.com/wp-content/uploads/ALTA_Bike_Detection_White_Paper_July2021.pdf https://altago.com/wp-content/uploads/ALTA_Bike_Detection_Wh...
  - ergsef 1y ago
    My city has inductive bike sensors at specific intersections but many intersections (even ones with bike lanes) lack them. Cycling infrastructure is so half-assed in the US.
    - throwawaylaptop 1y ago
      Cost per benefit? My friend is a commercial property guy and sometimes has to bring properties up to date for handicapped access. He jokes that with how few handicapped people use the features, he could probably give people $1k each as an apology for not being able to go into the building and be far ahead. I started thinking that for the most part most handicapped people would even take that deal. I think I would.
      - toast0 1y ago
        I don't think it costs that much more to use a D or Q pattern for the inductive loop instead of a circle for new loops. But, if the loops are already there, it is a lot of expense to put in new ones. Adding a loop to bike lanes might be reasonable, or maybe it forces a controller upgrade and that's not reasonable... but if you make the lowest speed through lane and at least one of each protected turn lanes bike accessible (while otherwise doing loop work), that's good. I think the loops are pretty shallow, so if the road has significant rebuild/repair, it's time to address the loop design. The key word for ADA is reasonable accomodation. It does add expense, and not every feature is used often, but it's 35 years since the ADA passed and the US is a lot more accessible now than it was in 1990. The window of reasonable changes over time too, of course.
- mike-cardwell 1y ago
  Since when did cyclists take notice of traffic lights?
  - bluecalm 1y ago
    If you think cyclists break more traffic rule than drivers your view or reality is distorted. Try looking at the data and then around. You just notice them breaking the rules because they are different than you. It's a bias worth correcting.
    - Tade0 1y ago
      I notice them when I cycle. Most common infraction, which I can't understand due to the sheer danger, is running red lights. Wouldn't occur to me in a car, much less in a smaller vehicle.
    - mike-cardwell 1y ago
      Different than me? When I used to cycle, I skipped through traffic lights, when it seemed safe to, and I've seen many other cyclists do the same. It's not a bias, it's an observation. But I mainly said it as a joke, because it's a well known stereotype, for good reason. At least where I am.
- abdullahkhalids 1y ago
  I have one in my city in Canada. Basically, on the bike you have to mount your bike from the bike path onto the sidewalk and press the pedestrian walk button. That turns the light green. Extremely annoying.
- phkahler 1y ago
  So they assume perfect vehicle detection? Sensors should be used to speed up a regular cycle. They should not be the only thing changing a light.
Ajedi32 1y ago
Presumably the app would be able to signal the presence of an approaching car from a much longer distance than the inductive loops you typically see these systems, ensuring cars don't even need to slow down when approaching the intersection. (Saving gas, brake/tire wear, and time.) It's also probably cheaper than the extra physical infrastructure needed for inductive loops, given that all the necessary equipment (phones, GPS, cell infrastructure) is already in place for most people.
- gruez 1y ago
  >It's also probably cheaper than the extra physical infrastructure needed for inductive loops, given that all the necessary equipment (phones, GPS, cell infrastructure) is already in place for most people. Assuming the procurement/contracting for said app is done competently, which seems questionable for most governments. Moreover even if it's cheaper, surely some sort of camera/sensor setup would be safer than drivers fiddling with an app?
  - Ajedi32 1y ago
    I'm guessing they wouldn't need to fiddle with an app; the software would just automatically signal their approach based on GPS/navigation info. I agree theoretically a camera + machine-learning based system could work just as well; I've always wondered why that wasn't standard on traffic lights these days given that the hardware would probably cost a few hundred dollars (if procurement for said hardware were done competently, which I suppose as you said, it probably wouldn't be).
    - iamtheworstdev 1y ago
      why would you need machine learning? just detect a minimum of one bright light source, assume it's a headlight, and switch the lights. What the worse a false positive could do? this doesn't need AI
      - Ajedi32 1y ago
        Comparable systems based on inductive loops work during the day. A design based on detecting headlights wouldn't. Software/compute is cheap and as you said reliability is not a safety concern.
elric 1y ago
Flemish person here: no one here understands it either. Probably CV-driven development for someone...
- dotancohen 1y ago
  Or the meeting started with the open question: "How can we get our citizens to give us 24-hour location data on their whereabouts? How could we possibly spin it as something beneficial to them?"
  - Scoundreller 1y ago
    So, uhhhhhhh, gps spoofing time?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
ToDougie 1y ago
> I don't understand why they need apps for this either. Data.
ergsef 1y ago
You would be amazed how bad drivers are at actually hitting the correct stopping position for the inductive loops in the ground that sense cars. When I'm on my bike stopped on a small side street I often try and gesture for drivers to pull up so their car is over the vehicle sensor in the pavement and the light changes faster. Drivers have gotten angry and yelled at me for giving them a little "inch up" hand gesture.
Aurornis 1y ago
> The infrastructure should be in place to detect cars approaching from the side street. Once they have the ability to detect cars, it's simple to assume everyone would be requesting a green light. Historically, traffic control systems detected cars with sensors embedded in the road. The cars had to come to the light to be detected. It's the most reliable method, but it requires the car to nearly come to a stop first to get to the right spot. It's easy to imagine more complicated computer vision or radar systems detecting cars. These are orders of magnitude more complex, though. When cities install traffic infrastructure they want to leave it alone and service it as infrequently as possible. It also needs to last for decades before replacement. Modern systems that are cheap, robust, and can detect traffic from a distance throughout different conditions like rain, snow, dark, and fog reliably are a recent invention. It's going to be decades before these are widely retrofitted to long-standing infrastructure.
Twirrim 1y ago
We've had traffic lights like that in the UK for ages. Where I am in the States these days, they're very common. There's one very effective one that manages my turning from the residential street onto to the main road. I was getting irritated at the weekend because I came across some lights that didn't have sensors. 5 cars stuck waiting at the lights for literally no one. Of course, the other thing they do in the UK is use small roundabouts, that can handle a fair amount of traffic nice and smoothly.
K0balt 1y ago
I’m guessing that with location access they can probably do it without adding any infrastructure, just an API.

bluecalm 1y ago

We have those in Poland. Sucks if you are on a bike. You need to wait for a car to turn it green for you.

6510 1y ago
In the Netherlands we have ones that detect warm bodies.
- hobofan 1y ago
  Sucks if you are a zombie...
  - vrosas 1y ago
    Here in Zombieland we have cameras that can detect any bipedal movement.
    - arjvik 1y ago
      Sucks if you drive a car
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  There's a road closure near me here in Rotterdam which has encouraged some people to get around it by cycling on a short patch of the tram track. It's quite funny to hear the "tram approaching" bell ringing only to look and see a small boy on his bike.
toast0 1y ago
If they're using inductive vehicle detector loops in the pavement, those can be tuned to detect motorcycles and bicycles (probably not carbon fiber bikes though). Where I've seen and used loops tuned for bicycles, they have a different cut pattern and a painted bike to accent positions where the detector is likely to detect you... Sadly, they don't tend to have far back detectors (advance loops) tuned for bikes so an idle intersection won't be green when you get there like if you were a car. You can sometimes get a detection on a car tuned detector by riding right on top of the wire, but it's iffy. I'd imagine camera detectors can be tuned for bicyclists as well, but I have less experience with those. Here's a nice survey of bicycle detection options [1], if you're willing to work with whoever does traffic control near you, this might help get a conversation started. This is focused on US applications, but the ideas should be broadly applicable. [1] https://altago.com/wp-content/uploads/ALTA_Bike_Detection_White_Paper_July2021.pdf https://altago.com/wp-content/uploads/ALTA_Bike_Detection_Wh...
- ergsef 1y ago
  My city has inductive bike sensors at specific intersections but many intersections (even ones with bike lanes) lack them. Cycling infrastructure is so half-assed in the US.
  - throwawaylaptop 1y ago
    Cost per benefit? My friend is a commercial property guy and sometimes has to bring properties up to date for handicapped access. He jokes that with how few handicapped people use the features, he could probably give people $1k each as an apology for not being able to go into the building and be far ahead. I started thinking that for the most part most handicapped people would even take that deal. I think I would.
    - toast0 1y ago
      I don't think it costs that much more to use a D or Q pattern for the inductive loop instead of a circle for new loops. But, if the loops are already there, it is a lot of expense to put in new ones. Adding a loop to bike lanes might be reasonable, or maybe it forces a controller upgrade and that's not reasonable... but if you make the lowest speed through lane and at least one of each protected turn lanes bike accessible (while otherwise doing loop work), that's good. I think the loops are pretty shallow, so if the road has significant rebuild/repair, it's time to address the loop design. The key word for ADA is reasonable accomodation. It does add expense, and not every feature is used often, but it's 35 years since the ADA passed and the US is a lot more accessible now than it was in 1990. The window of reasonable changes over time too, of course.
mike-cardwell 1y ago
Since when did cyclists take notice of traffic lights?
- bluecalm 1y ago
  If you think cyclists break more traffic rule than drivers your view or reality is distorted. Try looking at the data and then around. You just notice them breaking the rules because they are different than you. It's a bias worth correcting.
  - Tade0 1y ago
    I notice them when I cycle. Most common infraction, which I can't understand due to the sheer danger, is running red lights. Wouldn't occur to me in a car, much less in a smaller vehicle.
  - mike-cardwell 1y ago
    Different than me? When I used to cycle, I skipped through traffic lights, when it seemed safe to, and I've seen many other cyclists do the same. It's not a bias, it's an observation. But I mainly said it as a joke, because it's a well known stereotype, for good reason. At least where I am.
abdullahkhalids 1y ago
I have one in my city in Canada. Basically, on the bike you have to mount your bike from the bike path onto the sidewalk and press the pedestrian walk button. That turns the light green. Extremely annoying.
phkahler 1y ago
So they assume perfect vehicle detection? Sensors should be used to speed up a regular cycle. They should not be the only thing changing a light.

Ajedi32 1y ago

Presumably the app would be able to signal the presence of an approaching car from a much longer distance than the inductive loops you typically see these systems, ensuring cars don't even need to slow down when approaching the intersection. (Saving gas, brake/tire wear, and time.) It's also probably cheaper than the extra physical infrastructure needed for inductive loops, given that all the necessary equipment (phones, GPS, cell infrastructure) is already in place for most people.

gruez 1y ago
>It's also probably cheaper than the extra physical infrastructure needed for inductive loops, given that all the necessary equipment (phones, GPS, cell infrastructure) is already in place for most people. Assuming the procurement/contracting for said app is done competently, which seems questionable for most governments. Moreover even if it's cheaper, surely some sort of camera/sensor setup would be safer than drivers fiddling with an app?
- Ajedi32 1y ago
  I'm guessing they wouldn't need to fiddle with an app; the software would just automatically signal their approach based on GPS/navigation info. I agree theoretically a camera + machine-learning based system could work just as well; I've always wondered why that wasn't standard on traffic lights these days given that the hardware would probably cost a few hundred dollars (if procurement for said hardware were done competently, which I suppose as you said, it probably wouldn't be).
  - iamtheworstdev 1y ago
    why would you need machine learning? just detect a minimum of one bright light source, assume it's a headlight, and switch the lights. What the worse a false positive could do? this doesn't need AI
    - Ajedi32 1y ago
      Comparable systems based on inductive loops work during the day. A design based on detecting headlights wouldn't. Software/compute is cheap and as you said reliability is not a safety concern.

elric 1y ago

Flemish person here: no one here understands it either. Probably CV-driven development for someone...

dotancohen 1y ago
Or the meeting started with the open question: "How can we get our citizens to give us 24-hour location data on their whereabouts? How could we possibly spin it as something beneficial to them?"
- Scoundreller 1y ago
  So, uhhhhhhh, gps spoofing time?

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

ToDougie 1y ago

> I don't understand why they need apps for this either. Data.

ergsef 1y ago

You would be amazed how bad drivers are at actually hitting the correct stopping position for the inductive loops in the ground that sense cars. When I'm on my bike stopped on a small side street I often try and gesture for drivers to pull up so their car is over the vehicle sensor in the pavement and the light changes faster. Drivers have gotten angry and yelled at me for giving them a little "inch up" hand gesture.

Aurornis 1y ago

> The infrastructure should be in place to detect cars approaching from the side street. Once they have the ability to detect cars, it's simple to assume everyone would be requesting a green light. Historically, traffic control systems detected cars with sensors embedded in the road. The cars had to come to the light to be detected. It's the most reliable method, but it requires the car to nearly come to a stop first to get to the right spot. It's easy to imagine more complicated computer vision or radar systems detecting cars. These are orders of magnitude more complex, though. When cities install traffic infrastructure they want to leave it alone and service it as infrequently as possible. It also needs to last for decades before replacement. Modern systems that are cheap, robust, and can detect traffic from a distance throughout different conditions like rain, snow, dark, and fog reliably are a recent invention. It's going to be decades before these are widely retrofitted to long-standing infrastructure.

Twirrim 1y ago

We've had traffic lights like that in the UK for ages. Where I am in the States these days, they're very common. There's one very effective one that manages my turning from the residential street onto to the main road. I was getting irritated at the weekend because I came across some lights that didn't have sensors. 5 cars stuck waiting at the lights for literally no one. Of course, the other thing they do in the UK is use small roundabouts, that can handle a fair amount of traffic nice and smoothly.

K0balt 1y ago

I’m guessing that with location access they can probably do it without adding any infrastructure, just an API.