4 ms·

I can't remember where (maybe here) that you shouldn't use mouthwash after working out because of the effects on your oral microbiome. That fact shocked me just

I can't remember where (maybe here) that you shouldn't use mouthwash after working out because of the effects on your oral microbiome. That fact shocked me just like this article does because it was unintuitive that your oral microbiome could have such an impact on your physiology. The effect may actually be a similar one because nitrates do sound familiar...

DuzAwe 1y ago
Alcohol or just fluoride? I have an aversion to the alcohol washes after reading years ago that the change to your mouth biome may lead to the issues that they are meant to stop.
- ta988 1y ago
  fluoride with no kind of antibacterial is fine (careful with thymol etc). Check your toothpaste for anti bacterial as well. you want to remove food and plaque, not good bacteria.
  - justinator 1y ago
    But fluoride IS antibacterial.
christophilus 1y ago
You shouldn’t use mouthwash at all ever. It’s a nuke to the microbes in your mouth. There was a long, rambling discussion with a functional dentist on the Primal Podcast[0] that goes into this. [0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jNrm-9sp-RQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jNrm-9sp-RQ
- giantg2 1y ago
  There are situations where mouthwashes are beneficial, such as with injuries... Just not the stuff you buy at the store. The best mouthwash for those situations is just warm salty water.
  - morkalork 1y ago
    I'll just add that chlorohexadine mouthwash is probably the most vile thing I've ever put in my mouth; like gargling essence of hospital.
    - rickydroll 1y ago
      Being that guy: Chlorhexidine is the correct spelling. It is what Nate the hoof guy uses when cleaning cow hoof wounds. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nate+the+hoof+guy https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nate+the+hoof+g...
- Aurornis 1y ago
  > long, rambling discussion with a functional dentist on the Primal Podcast I don’t know what a “functional dentist” is, but the term “functional medicine” is used to describe alternative medicine doctors. They traditional misinterpret studies and exaggerate their impacts, focusing on small studies in mice or theoretical in vitro studies and then extrapolating those to treatment decisions.
  - kaleinator 1y ago
    In my own personal experience (chronic pain), "Real Doctors" seem to want to shove pills down your throat because "they work", or give things like steroid shots which have negative long term effects. Whereas "Functional Doctors" are willing to try more traditional things because historically they have seemed to produce good results and are typically less intrusive (but may require more effort from the patient). So I can see "Functional Dentist" being more like a dentist that is willing to try more ways to save teeth & gums by using more traditional methods (eg. Balancing the oral microbiome, suggesting softer foods more often), rather than a "Real Dentist" suggesting extractions or root canals without ever mentioning the hardness of foods or oral microbiome.
    - djtango 1y ago
      It's unpopular to voice anti-science sounding sentiments about medicine but it's worth noting that there is often a disconnect between known and practiced medicine. Optimal outcomes at the aggregate don't always translate to optimal outcomes for the individual. This can mean that strategies like effective triage and prioritization lets people fall through the cracks of conventional medical treatment. This is especially true for both public healthcare and separately chronic issues which are often too hard to treat vs acute medicine. Then in private medicine it can be a bit of a crapshoot of practitioners who are incentivised to upsell or recommend preferred treatments. I think this has soured people's opinions of conventional medicine. My own personal anecdote to offer on the subject is a friend who suffered from severe eczema and over their life and was just put on progressively higher doses of steroids until that stopped working. The last advice from the doctor was "we give up - our next recommendation is chemotherapy to shock your body. Maybe you would like to consider alternative medicine first" They went to try traditional Chinese medicine and for the first time in their life got control of their eczema. Given alternative medicine is a dirty word here what I'd say is missing these days is the family doctor who has excellent holistic patient history and is willing to provide a mixture of therapy and lifestyle guidance eg exercise or nutrition intervention. Some people might claim a GP should do this but the reality is that GPs often aren't allowed to provide this kind of care due to capacity constraints or top down strategic planning. Ironically you see the gap being bridged from the other direction with therapists increasing their scope - eg someone close to me went to an osteopath for neck issues to get diagnosed (correctly!) that the root cause was sleep apnoea
- Beijinger 1y ago
  You should definitely use mouthwash. For healthier teeth and problems like Alzheimer might also be correlated: https://expatcircle.com/cms/how-to-clean-your-teeth-and-save-money/ https://expatcircle.com/cms/how-to-clean-your-teeth-and-save...
  - Beijinger 1y ago
    Why the downvote? The evidence is strong. I rinse daily with sugar alcohols.
  - thenaturalist 1y ago
    Erythritol and Xylitol do have a strong correlation with severe coronary diseases and risk of strokes under certain preconditions according to newer studies though. Also not really advisable for people with Irritable Bowel Syndrome.
    - Beijinger 1y ago
      This is true but how much will your body absorb via a mouthwash? Erythritol is commonly found in sugar-free or keto-friendly products like beverages, desserts, and snacks. A single serving of an erythritol-sweetened product (e.g., a sugar-free soda, keto ice cream, or protein bar) often contains 10–30 g of erythritol. Studies, such as the 2023 Nature Medicine study, used a 30 g dose in intervention experiments to simulate typical consumption (e.g., one sweetened beverage or dessert). This dose raised plasma erythritol to 5–7 mM within 30 minutes, a level linked to increased platelet reactivity and clotting risk.
    - canucker2016 1y ago
      What are your sources? Peter Attia has a blog entry about the weak xylitol-cardiovascular disease research. For Xylitol, see https://peterattiamd.com/xylitol-and-cvd/ https://peterattiamd.com/xylitol-and-cvd/ The problem with interpreting these results as a condemnation of xylitol consumption is that diet isn’t the only source of circulating xylitol. This compound is also produced by our own bodies through a process known as the glucuronate pathway, one of the pathways by which we metabolize glucose. So how did the authors ensure they were investigating the relationship between dietary xylitol intake and MACE risk? They didn’t. ... Attia also brings up something the study authours noted: The rapid rate of xylitol excretion observed in healthy volunteers with return to near baseline (fasting) levels within hours following ingestion of a significant dietary exposure suggests that the plasma levels observed in our observational (validation) cohort represent variations in endogenous production/levels and not food intake.
- lurking_swe 1y ago
  there are mouthwashes that don’t nuke everything in your mouth. Just FYI in case you’re unaware. They are not popular but they exist. The added benefit is it doesn’t burn either lol. Example: Tom’s of Maine Whole Care Natural Fluoride Mouthwash. It’s extra beneficial if you live in a state / country that doesn’t add fluoride to drinking water.

DuzAwe 1y ago

Alcohol or just fluoride? I have an aversion to the alcohol washes after reading years ago that the change to your mouth biome may lead to the issues that they are meant to stop.

ta988 1y ago
fluoride with no kind of antibacterial is fine (careful with thymol etc). Check your toothpaste for anti bacterial as well. you want to remove food and plaque, not good bacteria.
- justinator 1y ago
  But fluoride IS antibacterial.

christophilus 1y ago

You shouldn’t use mouthwash at all ever. It’s a nuke to the microbes in your mouth. There was a long, rambling discussion with a functional dentist on the Primal Podcast[0] that goes into this. [0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jNrm-9sp-RQ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jNrm-9sp-RQ

giantg2 1y ago
There are situations where mouthwashes are beneficial, such as with injuries... Just not the stuff you buy at the store. The best mouthwash for those situations is just warm salty water.
- morkalork 1y ago
  I'll just add that chlorohexadine mouthwash is probably the most vile thing I've ever put in my mouth; like gargling essence of hospital.
  - rickydroll 1y ago
    Being that guy: Chlorhexidine is the correct spelling. It is what Nate the hoof guy uses when cleaning cow hoof wounds. https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nate+the+hoof+guy https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=nate+the+hoof+g...
Aurornis 1y ago
> long, rambling discussion with a functional dentist on the Primal Podcast I don’t know what a “functional dentist” is, but the term “functional medicine” is used to describe alternative medicine doctors. They traditional misinterpret studies and exaggerate their impacts, focusing on small studies in mice or theoretical in vitro studies and then extrapolating those to treatment decisions.
- kaleinator 1y ago
  In my own personal experience (chronic pain), "Real Doctors" seem to want to shove pills down your throat because "they work", or give things like steroid shots which have negative long term effects. Whereas "Functional Doctors" are willing to try more traditional things because historically they have seemed to produce good results and are typically less intrusive (but may require more effort from the patient). So I can see "Functional Dentist" being more like a dentist that is willing to try more ways to save teeth & gums by using more traditional methods (eg. Balancing the oral microbiome, suggesting softer foods more often), rather than a "Real Dentist" suggesting extractions or root canals without ever mentioning the hardness of foods or oral microbiome.
  - djtango 1y ago
    It's unpopular to voice anti-science sounding sentiments about medicine but it's worth noting that there is often a disconnect between known and practiced medicine. Optimal outcomes at the aggregate don't always translate to optimal outcomes for the individual. This can mean that strategies like effective triage and prioritization lets people fall through the cracks of conventional medical treatment. This is especially true for both public healthcare and separately chronic issues which are often too hard to treat vs acute medicine. Then in private medicine it can be a bit of a crapshoot of practitioners who are incentivised to upsell or recommend preferred treatments. I think this has soured people's opinions of conventional medicine. My own personal anecdote to offer on the subject is a friend who suffered from severe eczema and over their life and was just put on progressively higher doses of steroids until that stopped working. The last advice from the doctor was "we give up - our next recommendation is chemotherapy to shock your body. Maybe you would like to consider alternative medicine first" They went to try traditional Chinese medicine and for the first time in their life got control of their eczema. Given alternative medicine is a dirty word here what I'd say is missing these days is the family doctor who has excellent holistic patient history and is willing to provide a mixture of therapy and lifestyle guidance eg exercise or nutrition intervention. Some people might claim a GP should do this but the reality is that GPs often aren't allowed to provide this kind of care due to capacity constraints or top down strategic planning. Ironically you see the gap being bridged from the other direction with therapists increasing their scope - eg someone close to me went to an osteopath for neck issues to get diagnosed (correctly!) that the root cause was sleep apnoea
Beijinger 1y ago
You should definitely use mouthwash. For healthier teeth and problems like Alzheimer might also be correlated: https://expatcircle.com/cms/how-to-clean-your-teeth-and-save-money/ https://expatcircle.com/cms/how-to-clean-your-teeth-and-save...
- Beijinger 1y ago
  Why the downvote? The evidence is strong. I rinse daily with sugar alcohols.
- thenaturalist 1y ago
  Erythritol and Xylitol do have a strong correlation with severe coronary diseases and risk of strokes under certain preconditions according to newer studies though. Also not really advisable for people with Irritable Bowel Syndrome.
  - Beijinger 1y ago
    This is true but how much will your body absorb via a mouthwash? Erythritol is commonly found in sugar-free or keto-friendly products like beverages, desserts, and snacks. A single serving of an erythritol-sweetened product (e.g., a sugar-free soda, keto ice cream, or protein bar) often contains 10–30 g of erythritol. Studies, such as the 2023 Nature Medicine study, used a 30 g dose in intervention experiments to simulate typical consumption (e.g., one sweetened beverage or dessert). This dose raised plasma erythritol to 5–7 mM within 30 minutes, a level linked to increased platelet reactivity and clotting risk.
  - canucker2016 1y ago
    What are your sources? Peter Attia has a blog entry about the weak xylitol-cardiovascular disease research. For Xylitol, see https://peterattiamd.com/xylitol-and-cvd/ https://peterattiamd.com/xylitol-and-cvd/ The problem with interpreting these results as a condemnation of xylitol consumption is that diet isn’t the only source of circulating xylitol. This compound is also produced by our own bodies through a process known as the glucuronate pathway, one of the pathways by which we metabolize glucose. So how did the authors ensure they were investigating the relationship between dietary xylitol intake and MACE risk? They didn’t. ... Attia also brings up something the study authours noted: The rapid rate of xylitol excretion observed in healthy volunteers with return to near baseline (fasting) levels within hours following ingestion of a significant dietary exposure suggests that the plasma levels observed in our observational (validation) cohort represent variations in endogenous production/levels and not food intake.
lurking_swe 1y ago
there are mouthwashes that don’t nuke everything in your mouth. Just FYI in case you’re unaware. They are not popular but they exist. The added benefit is it doesn’t burn either lol. Example: Tom’s of Maine Whole Care Natural Fluoride Mouthwash. It’s extra beneficial if you live in a state / country that doesn’t add fluoride to drinking water.