7 ms·

It's harmful to spread this kind of fear. Statistically it's less than 0.05% of women die because they are killed by their partner. This puts a stigma on men in

It's harmful to spread this kind of fear. Statistically it's less than 0.05% of women die because they are killed by their partner. This puts a stigma on men in general as some sort of dangerous savages.

guywithahat 1y ago
It's also leads to racism when people break down relationship violence by race. It's a dumb argument that helps no one
- cauch 1y ago
  I think the problem is not the statement, but the conclusion. Do we have more physical violence from men towards women than the opposite? I think I saw that the reality is yes. Does it mean that men are biologically coded to be violent, or is it a question of education and culture? If you conclude the second one, it is not "sexist" (on the contrary, it may even be that the culture that creates the problem is itself rooted in sexism and that acknowledging some reality about its existence may help changing this culture), and does not imply prejudice against men, just acknowledging that we need to be careful in case of bad apples. It still means that talking about this requires to be very careful. To react on your example, I think it is a good think to notice if some population have a bigger problem at this subject than others, and we can then identify more easily the places where this problem forms and target these places. But people who concludes "look at violence divided by race, so I can generalise and be prejudicial to everyone in some race and not other" are idiots.
  - hdgvhicv 1y ago
    Men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes than women
    - exiguus 1y ago
      The context was a dating app. And yes, men are also victims by men.
    - standardUser 1y ago
      Yes, primarily by other men as we all know.
    - cindyllm 1y ago
      [dead]
    - cauch 1y ago
      Not sure what is your point? It feels a bit like saying "there is a bug in software X, but there is also a bug in software Y, so let's not fix the bug in software X". Of course, men also suffer from problems. It even feels that it is usually also due to machismo or something similar. Sometimes, it feels like the majority of men's problem is in fact self-inflicted by the manosphere. They both complain of suicide rate, army draft, violence against men, but they also promote a culture of not-showing-emotion-otherwise-you-are-not-manly, a-man-is-worthless-if-they-dont-succeed, army-is-manly-and-women-are-weak, a-man-should-show-dominence-and-other-men-are-a-threath, ... People likes to see things in black or white, but the reality is more complicated, and there is no advantages that does not bring also some disadvantages.
  - belorn 1y ago
    The statistics is a bit more complex and nuanced than giving straight answers. Studies looking at any form of violence in partner relationships shows both women and men having equal amount. When looking at physical violence, especially those that lead to people being charged with a crime, men are over-represented in heterosexual relationships. However, homosexual relationships has equal rate of partner violence as heterosexual ones. A bisexual woman that has a relationship with an other woman will double her rate of physical violence compare to relationship with a man (statically). A man who has a relationship with an other man will half his rate of violence. This makes no sense at all (unless we believe that sexual orientation is an factor for violent behavior), unless we add a additional factor of sexual dimorphism. Men are on average larger and more muscular, and there seems to be a correlation between being the larger/stronger and using physical strength/fists during a fight. The smaller person is in return more likely to use tools or other means of violence. Statistically, fist also has a higher probability to do damage than improvised weapons, since people are more proficient in using their fists. Does it mean men are biologically coded to be violent? No. Is it a question about education and culture. Maybe in some countries/cultures, and it wouldn't hurt to use the education system to teach people conflict resolution. Getting people who are physically larger to not exploit that fact during a heated fight is likely a hard problem to solve on a population level.
    - cauch 1y ago
      Not sure what is your point. I think "any form of violence" is not a constructive direction. First, this ends up being very subjective: between 2 forms of psychological violence, which one is the most violent? Secondly, if indeed it is cultural, it implies that different sub-culture may have different ways of acting, so we can always play the subgroups to make it says whatever we want. But most importantly, it is not very relevant for our context: in the case of the first interactions during heterosexual dating, pretending that men risk as much as women seems a very unconvincing claim, for several reasons (even if under-represented it should be under-represented to an unrealistic level to reach an equal level, and it also does not fit with plenty of cultural tropes (I can find a video explaining explicitly that manly men need to dominate their female partner. I'm sure it exists, but the simple fact that I cannot easily find a video explaining explicitly that womenly women need to dominate their male partner shows it's not that of a trope. On the other hand, I can also easily find videos about "trad wife" that will explain that a womenly woman must be with a dominating man)) For the rest, I think we say the same thing: talking about the visible issues is not a problem in itself, but people instrumentalising these issues to be racist or sexist are the problem.
- exiguus 1y ago
  The risk of females being murdered by an intimate partner is five times higher than for males. And murder is just the very end of the spectrum. And by definition, calling out men, is not racism.
  - Rebelgecko 1y ago
    Are there other groups that are 5x more likely to commit murder? Even if there are, IMO we shouldn't judge every member of that group for the actions of a small minority
    - exiguus 1y ago
      Are we still talking about a App that helps with dating?
    - standardUser 1y ago
      [flagged]
- standardUser 1y ago
  Race is America is extremely idiosyncratic. Gender relations exhibit a far more consistent dynamic cross-culturally.
  - octopoc 1y ago
    Calling it "extremely idiosyncratic" is not indicative of reality: > Black people are the most likely to experience domestic violence—either male-to-female or female-to-male—followed by Hispanic people and White people.2 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The national intimate partner and sexual violence survey: 2010-2012 state report. > Asian people are the least likely to experience intimate partner violence.[1] [1] https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-violence-varies-by-ethnicity-62648 https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-violence-varies-by-eth...
    - standardUser 1y ago
      You misunderstood my comment and instead gave examples that further support the idea that race relations in America are unique and particular to our history and geography. That's why race statistics in the US are not well-suited for cross-cultural comparison, let alone for drawing gargantuan conclusions about inherent racial traits (as racists are often looking to do).
spinach 1y ago
Statistically that is a rather small number. But if we take the number of women in say, America, a web search says 334.9 million. 0.05% of that is 167,450. That is quite a lot of women being killed by their partner.
- kgwgk 1y ago
  > the number of women in say, America, a web search says 334.9 million Doesn't look correct.
  - ehutch79 1y ago
    That looks like the general population of the US, and is out of date, it’s 340m+
  - pbhjpbhj 1y ago
    USA population is c.350M total, so they're probably off by half. https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/us-demographics/ https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/us-demographics/
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- edmundsauto 1y ago
  5k women are murdered in America each year, fwiw. 18k men are murdered. But women are murdered by their partners at a higher rate.
  - cwmoore 1y ago
    How many men are murdered by their partner's other or would-be partners? Not none. Is suicide not counted in any way? A significant other or their loss will have a significant impact on mental health.
- deathanatos 1y ago
  According to the UNODC[1], in 2023, the rate of all murders of women in the US was 0.00205%. (2.05 per 100,000) Partner violence appears to account for ~34% of violence against women[2] (but vs. 6% for men), so that would be 0.697 per 100k or ~0.0007%, or ~1190 women/yr in the US[3]. Assuming I've done the math right… the risk is more than two orders of magnitude smaller than what you came up with. > Partner violence appears to account for ~34% of violence against women[2] (but vs. 6% for men) And this is sort of the point of the comment higher up: when you cut the stat this way, it seems like men are wildly dangerous creeps. But it is a statistic comparing one group to another group. We need to instead look at the absolute rate of partner violence to decide if men are on the whole violent murders or so, and there, the overall risk is low. [1]: https://dataunodc.un.org/dp-intentional-homicide-victims https://dataunodc.un.org/dp-intentional-homicide-victims [2]: https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offender-relationship-2021 https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offende... [3]: (I've assumed a round population of 340M for the US, with 50/50 gender, just an approximation.)
exiguus 1y ago
I don't know were you have this numbers from, but in 2021 34% of women were killed by partner and 76% of women where killed by a known person (family, friends, colleges, partner) [1]. Edit: 100% are murder victims https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offender-relationship-2021 https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offende...
- qualeed 1y ago
  Your stats are for murder victims. I assume that the parent poster was talking about all causes of death. I have no idea if their number is correct for that either.
  - exiguus 1y ago
    Could be. But I'm not. And the context is App for dating.
    - qualeed 1y ago
      >But I'm not. But... you're trying to correct their statistics? I agree with you that in the context, your stats maybe make more sense. But if you're going to correct someone, you generally should recognize what they were trying to communicate in the first place.
      - exiguus 1y ago
        I don't want to imply that someone tried to find the smallest possible number in order to deliberately misunderstand my comment, but we are still in the context of the dating app.
- K0balt 1y ago
  I think poster is looking at mortality risk, not mortality cause.
- edmundsauto 1y ago
  That’s out of women who were murdered or killed in manslaughter cases. OP was talking about base rates. 5000/170000000 is about 0.03%.
HPsquared 1y ago
It's better to think in terms of overall life damage and "quality of life years lost". I think it's very debatable which side loses more from getting involved in relationships.
standardUser 1y ago
As a man, I find it absurd and even dangerous to not attach some stigma to men. That you feel the need to invoke "dangerous savages" is maybe your own prerogative, but by any sober and fact-based analysis it is indisputable that women are justified in acting cautiously when dealing with strange men.
- fsckboy 1y ago
  mothers are more than twice as likely as fathers to kill their children. and the same is true for child abuse and neglect. humans in general act like psychos, the danger comes more from the size differential than propensity to act like a jerk.
  - standardUser 1y ago
    Most violence is perpetrated by men. If you're only response to that hard, cold fact is some stat about infanticide, maybe you're not honestly grappling with the issue.
    - throwawayq3423 1y ago
      Most violence is perpetrated by men, but men are also equal victims.
      - throwawayq3423 1y ago
        I just looked it up, 5,000 women were the victims of homicide last year. 13,000 men were. So, unequal.
    - huhkerrf 1y ago
      And yet domestic violence is equally done by men and women, except that most men don't report the abuse because of people like you who act like it doesn't happen. It's disappointing. You bring up fact based analyses. Let's see what they have to say. > Over two hundred studies found that men and women perpetrate intimate partner violence at roughly equivalent rates, depending on where the samples are drawn from, and what level of violence is identified. (Dutton and Nicholls, 2005). https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/if-love-could-kill/202412/women-as-intimate-partner-violence-perpetrators/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog...
adolph 1y ago
> Statistically it's less than 0.05% of women die because they are killed by their partner. 2020 USA Per Capita Count of Mortality Event: Assault(Homicide), Female: 0.00139% https://datacommons.org/tools/visualization#visType%3Dtimeline%26place%3Dcountry%2FUSA%26placeType%3DState%26sv%3D%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_Death_IntentionalSelfHarm_AsFractionOf_Count_Person%22%7D___%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_MortalityEvent_Assault(Homicide)_Male%22%2C%22pc%22%3A%221%22%7D___%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_MortalityEvent_Assault(Homicide)_Female%22%2C%22pc%22%3A%221%22%7D___%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_MortalityEvent_Suicide_Female%22%2C%22pc%22%3A%221%22%7D___%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_MortalityEvent_Suicide_Male%22%2C%22pc%22%3A%221%22%7D https://datacommons.org/tools/visualization#visType%3Dtimeli...
exiguus 1y ago
In my opinion, it's dangerous to consider absolute numbers alone in this context. Saying something like, "Less than 0.02% of paragliders die because of the sport," can be misleading. When nn reality, the chance of dying from paragliding is 1000 times higher than in football. When I choose my next hobby, this information is very useful.

guywithahat 1y ago

It's also leads to racism when people break down relationship violence by race. It's a dumb argument that helps no one

cauch 1y ago
I think the problem is not the statement, but the conclusion. Do we have more physical violence from men towards women than the opposite? I think I saw that the reality is yes. Does it mean that men are biologically coded to be violent, or is it a question of education and culture? If you conclude the second one, it is not "sexist" (on the contrary, it may even be that the culture that creates the problem is itself rooted in sexism and that acknowledging some reality about its existence may help changing this culture), and does not imply prejudice against men, just acknowledging that we need to be careful in case of bad apples. It still means that talking about this requires to be very careful. To react on your example, I think it is a good think to notice if some population have a bigger problem at this subject than others, and we can then identify more easily the places where this problem forms and target these places. But people who concludes "look at violence divided by race, so I can generalise and be prejudicial to everyone in some race and not other" are idiots.
- hdgvhicv 1y ago
  Men are more likely to be victims of violent crimes than women
  - exiguus 1y ago
    The context was a dating app. And yes, men are also victims by men.
  - standardUser 1y ago
    Yes, primarily by other men as we all know.
  - cindyllm 1y ago
    [dead]
  - cauch 1y ago
    Not sure what is your point? It feels a bit like saying "there is a bug in software X, but there is also a bug in software Y, so let's not fix the bug in software X". Of course, men also suffer from problems. It even feels that it is usually also due to machismo or something similar. Sometimes, it feels like the majority of men's problem is in fact self-inflicted by the manosphere. They both complain of suicide rate, army draft, violence against men, but they also promote a culture of not-showing-emotion-otherwise-you-are-not-manly, a-man-is-worthless-if-they-dont-succeed, army-is-manly-and-women-are-weak, a-man-should-show-dominence-and-other-men-are-a-threath, ... People likes to see things in black or white, but the reality is more complicated, and there is no advantages that does not bring also some disadvantages.
- belorn 1y ago
  The statistics is a bit more complex and nuanced than giving straight answers. Studies looking at any form of violence in partner relationships shows both women and men having equal amount. When looking at physical violence, especially those that lead to people being charged with a crime, men are over-represented in heterosexual relationships. However, homosexual relationships has equal rate of partner violence as heterosexual ones. A bisexual woman that has a relationship with an other woman will double her rate of physical violence compare to relationship with a man (statically). A man who has a relationship with an other man will half his rate of violence. This makes no sense at all (unless we believe that sexual orientation is an factor for violent behavior), unless we add a additional factor of sexual dimorphism. Men are on average larger and more muscular, and there seems to be a correlation between being the larger/stronger and using physical strength/fists during a fight. The smaller person is in return more likely to use tools or other means of violence. Statistically, fist also has a higher probability to do damage than improvised weapons, since people are more proficient in using their fists. Does it mean men are biologically coded to be violent? No. Is it a question about education and culture. Maybe in some countries/cultures, and it wouldn't hurt to use the education system to teach people conflict resolution. Getting people who are physically larger to not exploit that fact during a heated fight is likely a hard problem to solve on a population level.
  - cauch 1y ago
    Not sure what is your point. I think "any form of violence" is not a constructive direction. First, this ends up being very subjective: between 2 forms of psychological violence, which one is the most violent? Secondly, if indeed it is cultural, it implies that different sub-culture may have different ways of acting, so we can always play the subgroups to make it says whatever we want. But most importantly, it is not very relevant for our context: in the case of the first interactions during heterosexual dating, pretending that men risk as much as women seems a very unconvincing claim, for several reasons (even if under-represented it should be under-represented to an unrealistic level to reach an equal level, and it also does not fit with plenty of cultural tropes (I can find a video explaining explicitly that manly men need to dominate their female partner. I'm sure it exists, but the simple fact that I cannot easily find a video explaining explicitly that womenly women need to dominate their male partner shows it's not that of a trope. On the other hand, I can also easily find videos about "trad wife" that will explain that a womenly woman must be with a dominating man)) For the rest, I think we say the same thing: talking about the visible issues is not a problem in itself, but people instrumentalising these issues to be racist or sexist are the problem.
exiguus 1y ago
The risk of females being murdered by an intimate partner is five times higher than for males. And murder is just the very end of the spectrum. And by definition, calling out men, is not racism.
- Rebelgecko 1y ago
  Are there other groups that are 5x more likely to commit murder? Even if there are, IMO we shouldn't judge every member of that group for the actions of a small minority
  - exiguus 1y ago
    Are we still talking about a App that helps with dating?
  - standardUser 1y ago
    [flagged]
standardUser 1y ago
Race is America is extremely idiosyncratic. Gender relations exhibit a far more consistent dynamic cross-culturally.
- octopoc 1y ago
  Calling it "extremely idiosyncratic" is not indicative of reality: > Black people are the most likely to experience domestic violence—either male-to-female or female-to-male—followed by Hispanic people and White people.2 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The national intimate partner and sexual violence survey: 2010-2012 state report. > Asian people are the least likely to experience intimate partner violence.[1] [1] https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-violence-varies-by-ethnicity-62648 https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-violence-varies-by-eth...
  - standardUser 1y ago
    You misunderstood my comment and instead gave examples that further support the idea that race relations in America are unique and particular to our history and geography. That's why race statistics in the US are not well-suited for cross-cultural comparison, let alone for drawing gargantuan conclusions about inherent racial traits (as racists are often looking to do).

spinach 1y ago

Statistically that is a rather small number. But if we take the number of women in say, America, a web search says 334.9 million. 0.05% of that is 167,450. That is quite a lot of women being killed by their partner.

kgwgk 1y ago
> the number of women in say, America, a web search says 334.9 million Doesn't look correct.
- ehutch79 1y ago
  That looks like the general population of the US, and is out of date, it’s 340m+
- pbhjpbhj 1y ago
  USA population is c.350M total, so they're probably off by half. https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/us-demographics/ https://www.worldometers.info/demographics/us-demographics/
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
edmundsauto 1y ago
5k women are murdered in America each year, fwiw. 18k men are murdered. But women are murdered by their partners at a higher rate.
- cwmoore 1y ago
  How many men are murdered by their partner's other or would-be partners? Not none. Is suicide not counted in any way? A significant other or their loss will have a significant impact on mental health.
deathanatos 1y ago
According to the UNODC[1], in 2023, the rate of all murders of women in the US was 0.00205%. (2.05 per 100,000) Partner violence appears to account for ~34% of violence against women[2] (but vs. 6% for men), so that would be 0.697 per 100k or ~0.0007%, or ~1190 women/yr in the US[3]. Assuming I've done the math right… the risk is more than two orders of magnitude smaller than what you came up with. > Partner violence appears to account for ~34% of violence against women[2] (but vs. 6% for men) And this is sort of the point of the comment higher up: when you cut the stat this way, it seems like men are wildly dangerous creeps. But it is a statistic comparing one group to another group. We need to instead look at the absolute rate of partner violence to decide if men are on the whole violent murders or so, and there, the overall risk is low. [1]: https://dataunodc.un.org/dp-intentional-homicide-victims https://dataunodc.un.org/dp-intentional-homicide-victims [2]: https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offender-relationship-2021 https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offende... [3]: (I've assumed a round population of 340M for the US, with 50/50 gender, just an approximation.)

exiguus 1y ago

I don't know were you have this numbers from, but in 2021 34% of women were killed by partner and 76% of women where killed by a known person (family, friends, colleges, partner) [1]. Edit: 100% are murder victims https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offender-relationship-2021 https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offende...

qualeed 1y ago
Your stats are for murder victims. I assume that the parent poster was talking about all causes of death. I have no idea if their number is correct for that either.
- exiguus 1y ago
  Could be. But I'm not. And the context is App for dating.
  - qualeed 1y ago
    >But I'm not. But... you're trying to correct their statistics? I agree with you that in the context, your stats maybe make more sense. But if you're going to correct someone, you generally should recognize what they were trying to communicate in the first place.
    - exiguus 1y ago
      I don't want to imply that someone tried to find the smallest possible number in order to deliberately misunderstand my comment, but we are still in the context of the dating app.
K0balt 1y ago
I think poster is looking at mortality risk, not mortality cause.
edmundsauto 1y ago
That’s out of women who were murdered or killed in manslaughter cases. OP was talking about base rates. 5000/170000000 is about 0.03%.

HPsquared 1y ago

It's better to think in terms of overall life damage and "quality of life years lost". I think it's very debatable which side loses more from getting involved in relationships.

standardUser 1y ago

As a man, I find it absurd and even dangerous to not attach some stigma to men. That you feel the need to invoke "dangerous savages" is maybe your own prerogative, but by any sober and fact-based analysis it is indisputable that women are justified in acting cautiously when dealing with strange men.

fsckboy 1y ago
mothers are more than twice as likely as fathers to kill their children. and the same is true for child abuse and neglect. humans in general act like psychos, the danger comes more from the size differential than propensity to act like a jerk.
- standardUser 1y ago
  Most violence is perpetrated by men. If you're only response to that hard, cold fact is some stat about infanticide, maybe you're not honestly grappling with the issue.
  - throwawayq3423 1y ago
    Most violence is perpetrated by men, but men are also equal victims.
    - throwawayq3423 1y ago
      I just looked it up, 5,000 women were the victims of homicide last year. 13,000 men were. So, unequal.
  - huhkerrf 1y ago
    And yet domestic violence is equally done by men and women, except that most men don't report the abuse because of people like you who act like it doesn't happen. It's disappointing. You bring up fact based analyses. Let's see what they have to say. > Over two hundred studies found that men and women perpetrate intimate partner violence at roughly equivalent rates, depending on where the samples are drawn from, and what level of violence is identified. (Dutton and Nicholls, 2005). https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/if-love-could-kill/202412/women-as-intimate-partner-violence-perpetrators/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog...

adolph 1y ago

> Statistically it's less than 0.05% of women die because they are killed by their partner. 2020 USA Per Capita Count of Mortality Event: Assault(Homicide), Female: 0.00139% https://datacommons.org/tools/visualization#visType%3Dtimeline%26place%3Dcountry%2FUSA%26placeType%3DState%26sv%3D%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_Death_IntentionalSelfHarm_AsFractionOf_Count_Person%22%7D___%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_MortalityEvent_Assault(Homicide)_Male%22%2C%22pc%22%3A%221%22%7D___%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_MortalityEvent_Assault(Homicide)_Female%22%2C%22pc%22%3A%221%22%7D___%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_MortalityEvent_Suicide_Female%22%2C%22pc%22%3A%221%22%7D___%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_MortalityEvent_Suicide_Male%22%2C%22pc%22%3A%221%22%7D https://datacommons.org/tools/visualization#visType%3Dtimeli...

exiguus 1y ago

In my opinion, it's dangerous to consider absolute numbers alone in this context. Saying something like, "Less than 0.02% of paragliders die because of the sport," can be misleading. When nn reality, the chance of dying from paragliding is 1000 times higher than in football. When I choose my next hobby, this information is very useful.