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A gray area in my eyes. As a father, I think it's good that my daughter uses the app. You only need to look at the statistics to see how many women are killed b
by exiguus 1y ago
A gray area in my eyes. As a father, I think it's good that my daughter uses the app.
You only need to look at the statistics to see how many women are killed by their male partners every year.
- thefourthchime 1y agoIt's harmful to spread this kind of fear. Statistically it's less than 0.05% of women die because they are killed by their partner. This puts a stigma on men in general as some sort of dangerous savages.
- guywithahat 1y agoIt's also leads to racism when people break down relationship violence by race. It's a dumb argument that helps no one
- cauch 1y agoI think the problem is not the statement, but the conclusion. Do we have more physical violence from men towards women than the opposite? I think I saw that the reality is yes. Does it mean that men are biologically coded to be violent, or is it a question of education and culture? If you conclude the second one, it is not "sexist" (on the contrary, it may even be that the culture that creates the problem is itself rooted in sexism and that acknowledging some reality about its existence may help changing this culture), and does not imply prejudice against men, just acknowledging that we need to be careful in case of bad apples. It still means that talking about this requires to be very careful. To react on your example, I think it is a good think to notice if some population have a bigger problem at this subject than others, and we can then identify more easily the places where this problem forms and target these places. But people who concludes "look at violence divided by race, so I can generalise and be prejudicial to everyone in some race and not other" are idiots.
- hdgvhicv 1y agoMen are more likely to be victims of violent crimes than women
- exiguus 1y agoThe context was a dating app. And yes, men are also victims by men.
- standardUser 1y agoYes, primarily by other men as we all know.
- cindyllm 1y ago[dead]
- cauch 1y agoNot sure what is your point? It feels a bit like saying "there is a bug in software X, but there is also a bug in software Y, so let's not fix the bug in software X". Of course, men also suffer from problems. It even feels that it is usually also due to machismo or something similar. Sometimes, it feels like the majority of men's problem is in fact self-inflicted by the manosphere. They both complain of suicide rate, army draft, violence against men, but they also promote a culture of not-showing-emotion-otherwise-you-are-not-manly, a-man-is-worthless-if-they-dont-succeed, army-is-manly-and-women-are-weak, a-man-should-show-dominence-and-other-men-are-a-threath, ... People likes to see things in black or white, but the reality is more complicated, and there is no advantages that does not bring also some disadvantages.
- belorn 1y agoThe statistics is a bit more complex and nuanced than giving straight answers. Studies looking at any form of violence in partner relationships shows both women and men having equal amount. When looking at physical violence, especially those that lead to people being charged with a crime, men are over-represented in heterosexual relationships. However, homosexual relationships has equal rate of partner violence as heterosexual ones. A bisexual woman that has a relationship with an other woman will double her rate of physical violence compare to relationship with a man (statically). A man who has a relationship with an other man will half his rate of violence. This makes no sense at all (unless we believe that sexual orientation is an factor for violent behavior), unless we add a additional factor of sexual dimorphism. Men are on average larger and more muscular, and there seems to be a correlation between being the larger/stronger and using physical strength/fists during a fight. The smaller person is in return more likely to use tools or other means of violence. Statistically, fist also has a higher probability to do damage than improvised weapons, since people are more proficient in using their fists. Does it mean men are biologically coded to be violent? No. Is it a question about education and culture. Maybe in some countries/cultures, and it wouldn't hurt to use the education system to teach people conflict resolution. Getting people who are physically larger to not exploit that fact during a heated fight is likely a hard problem to solve on a population level.
- exiguus 1y agoThe risk of females being murdered by an intimate partner is five times higher than for males. And murder is just the very end of the spectrum. And by definition, calling out men, is not racism.
- Rebelgecko 1y agoAre there other groups that are 5x more likely to commit murder? Even if there are, IMO we shouldn't judge every member of that group for the actions of a small minority
- exiguus 1y agoAre we still talking about a App that helps with dating?
- standardUser 1y ago[flagged]
- standardUser 1y agoRace is America is extremely idiosyncratic. Gender relations exhibit a far more consistent dynamic cross-culturally.
- octopoc 1y agoCalling it "extremely idiosyncratic" is not indicative of reality: > Black people are the most likely to experience domestic violence—either male-to-female or female-to-male—followed by Hispanic people and White people.2 Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The national intimate partner and sexual violence survey: 2010-2012 state report. > Asian people are the least likely to experience intimate partner violence.[1] [1] https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-violence-varies-by-ethnicity-62648 https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-violence-varies-by-eth...
- standardUser 1y agoYou misunderstood my comment and instead gave examples that further support the idea that race relations in America are unique and particular to our history and geography. That's why race statistics in the US are not well-suited for cross-cultural comparison, let alone for drawing gargantuan conclusions about inherent racial traits (as racists are often looking to do).
- spinach 1y agoStatistically that is a rather small number. But if we take the number of women in say, America, a web search says 334.9 million. 0.05% of that is 167,450. That is quite a lot of women being killed by their partner.
- kgwgk 1y ago> the number of women in say, America, a web search says 334.9 million Doesn't look correct.
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- edmundsauto 1y ago5k women are murdered in America each year, fwiw. 18k men are murdered. But women are murdered by their partners at a higher rate.
- cwmoore 1y agoHow many men are murdered by their partner's other or would-be partners? Not none. Is suicide not counted in any way? A significant other or their loss will have a significant impact on mental health.
- deathanatos 1y agoAccording to the UNODC[1], in 2023, the rate of all murders of women in the US was 0.00205%. (2.05 per 100,000) Partner violence appears to account for ~34% of violence against women[2] (but vs. 6% for men), so that would be 0.697 per 100k or ~0.0007%, or ~1190 women/yr in the US[3]. Assuming I've done the math right… the risk is more than two orders of magnitude smaller than what you came up with. > Partner violence appears to account for ~34% of violence against women[2] (but vs. 6% for men) And this is sort of the point of the comment higher up: when you cut the stat this way, it seems like men are wildly dangerous creeps. But it is a statistic comparing one group to another group. We need to instead look at the absolute rate of partner violence to decide if men are on the whole violent murders or so, and there, the overall risk is low. [1]: https://dataunodc.un.org/dp-intentional-homicide-victims https://dataunodc.un.org/dp-intentional-homicide-victims [2]: https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offender-relationship-2021 https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offende... [3]: (I've assumed a round population of 340M for the US, with 50/50 gender, just an approximation.)
- exiguus 1y agoI don't know were you have this numbers from, but in 2021 34% of women were killed by partner and 76% of women where killed by a known person (family, friends, colleges, partner) [1]. Edit: 100% are murder victims https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offender-relationship-2021 https://bjs.ojp.gov/female-murder-victims-and-victim-offende...
- qualeed 1y agoYour stats are for murder victims. I assume that the parent poster was talking about all causes of death. I have no idea if their number is correct for that either.
- exiguus 1y agoCould be. But I'm not. And the context is App for dating.
- qualeed 1y ago>But I'm not. But... you're trying to correct their statistics? I agree with you that in the context, your stats maybe make more sense. But if you're going to correct someone, you generally should recognize what they were trying to communicate in the first place.
- exiguus 1y agoI don't want to imply that someone tried to find the smallest possible number in order to deliberately misunderstand my comment, but we are still in the context of the dating app.
- K0balt 1y agoI think poster is looking at mortality risk, not mortality cause.
- edmundsauto 1y agoThat’s out of women who were murdered or killed in manslaughter cases. OP was talking about base rates. 5000/170000000 is about 0.03%.
- HPsquared 1y agoIt's better to think in terms of overall life damage and "quality of life years lost". I think it's very debatable which side loses more from getting involved in relationships.
- standardUser 1y agoAs a man, I find it absurd and even dangerous to not attach some stigma to men. That you feel the need to invoke "dangerous savages" is maybe your own prerogative, but by any sober and fact-based analysis it is indisputable that women are justified in acting cautiously when dealing with strange men.
- fsckboy 1y agomothers are more than twice as likely as fathers to kill their children. and the same is true for child abuse and neglect. humans in general act like psychos, the danger comes more from the size differential than propensity to act like a jerk.
- standardUser 1y agoMost violence is perpetrated by men. If you're only response to that hard, cold fact is some stat about infanticide, maybe you're not honestly grappling with the issue.
- throwawayq3423 1y agoMost violence is perpetrated by men, but men are also equal victims.
- throwawayq3423 1y agoI just looked it up, 5,000 women were the victims of homicide last year. 13,000 men were. So, unequal.
- huhkerrf 1y agoAnd yet domestic violence is equally done by men and women, except that most men don't report the abuse because of people like you who act like it doesn't happen. It's disappointing. You bring up fact based analyses. Let's see what they have to say. > Over two hundred studies found that men and women perpetrate intimate partner violence at roughly equivalent rates, depending on where the samples are drawn from, and what level of violence is identified. (Dutton and Nicholls, 2005). https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/if-love-could-kill/202412/women-as-intimate-partner-violence-perpetrators/amp https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog...
- adolph 1y ago> Statistically it's less than 0.05% of women die because they are killed by their partner. 2020 USA Per Capita Count of Mortality Event: Assault(Homicide), Female: 0.00139% https://datacommons.org/tools/visualization#visType%3Dtimeline%26place%3Dcountry%2FUSA%26placeType%3DState%26sv%3D%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_Death_IntentionalSelfHarm_AsFractionOf_Count_Person%22%7D___%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_MortalityEvent_Assault(Homicide)_Male%22%2C%22pc%22%3A%221%22%7D___%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_MortalityEvent_Assault(Homicide)_Female%22%2C%22pc%22%3A%221%22%7D___%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_MortalityEvent_Suicide_Female%22%2C%22pc%22%3A%221%22%7D___%7B%22dcid%22%3A%22Count_MortalityEvent_Suicide_Male%22%2C%22pc%22%3A%221%22%7D https://datacommons.org/tools/visualization#visType%3Dtimeli...
- exiguus 1y agoIn my opinion, it's dangerous to consider absolute numbers alone in this context. Saying something like, "Less than 0.02% of paragliders die because of the sport," can be misleading. When nn reality, the chance of dying from paragliding is 1000 times higher than in football. When I choose my next hobby, this information is very useful.
- jabjq 1y agoI wonder how well-received this comment would be if it mentioned crime statistics regarding something else than gender.
- saparaloot 1y agoYou still think so?
- jameslk 1y agoI keep seeing the defense for Tea as an app for women’s safety, which is of course a valid concern. Wouldn’t it make more sense for a service to exist, like some kind of enforcement service provided by the government, where others can report safety concerns and that service goes and does something about it legally? If such a service exists and isn’t being too effective, shouldn’t that be worked on? My guess is that there’s more to the reasons for why Tea is popular but the safety argument is largely being used to defend it
- ronsor 1y ago> Wouldn’t it make more sense for a service to exist, like some kind of enforcement service provided by the government, where others can report safety concerns and that service goes and does something about it legally? I think this is called "the police"
- blks 1y agoOnline men-dominated forums often dislike and feel personally attacked by people talking about sexual abuse/harassment done by other men. I guess they immediately imagine themselves being falsely accused of such acts, rather than being a woman that is attacked.
- John-117 1y agoRight. Generally, people don't like things that can only negatively impact them.
- tpmoney 1y agoI think groups in general feel personally attacked by things that attack people on the basis of their immutable group characteristics. Notably women dislike and feel attacked by unqualified statements like "women are crazy" or calling someone a "karen". Black people dislike and feel attacked when people talk about "ghetto trash" or "welfare queens". Sure any individual discussion about an individual might justifiably refer to that person as "crazy" or "ghetto trash". But the nature of online spaces, and the nature of the public discourse that tends to bring these phrases and discussions into the public eye very quickly starts painting people with broad brushes. People also feel attacked because often times discussions tend to confuse useful rhetorical devices for conveying a point with justification for a behavior that has harmful impacts on the broader group. For example, it was pretty common to here the "bowl of M&Ms where one M&M is poisoned" analogy in the height of the "Me Too" movement. It's a useful rhetorical device for explaining why someone would fell cautious about a strange man, and why they wouldn't start from a position of trust. But it's also a terrible way of generally treating men in your life, and a terrible broad philosophy for organizations and governments to follow. And we know this rhetorical device makes bad policy and at large is harmful to innocent people because another time in recent history when that analogy was really popular was immediately after the Sept 11 attacks when talking about Muslims in general and immigrants from Muslim countries. Surely no one would find it strange that Muslims might dislike and feel personally attacked by "people talking about crimes and terrorism done by other Muslims" in the same way that many online spaces talk about "sexual abuse/harassment done by other men". Surely we wouldn't be surprised if people felt attacked or disliked an app for sharing anonymous and private information about suspicious Muslims right? Or let's say someone noticed that black people are statistically 2x as likely relative to their population to be the offender of a violent crime[1]. You'd reasonably expect people to be bothered by an app that excluded black people from signing up and was entirely about strangers providing un-verified experiences with black people under the premise of keeping people safe. Ultimately, people are bad at statistics and really bad at understanding the degree to which a small minority of individuals can affect a large majority of people by virtue of repeat offending. So it can be true both that lots of people have completely valid awful experiences with members of a given broad group, and that members of that group feel unfairly maligned when discussion about those experiences paints with broad, unqualified strokes. [1]: https://bjs.ojp.gov/document/cv23.pdf https://bjs.ojp.gov/document/cv23.pdf
- storus 1y agoYou are probably unaware of unintended consequences enabled by this app - many women use it to find bad boys they feel attracted to due to some brokenness in female psyche. So you'll get public outrage on one hand and private DMs on the other from them, based on how bad you are described/vetted by other women on the app.
- laughing_man 1y agoIf you had a son, would you think it's good spiteful women from his past were labeling him some kind of abuser on TEA when he has no way to know these allegations even exist?