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American sentenced for helping North Koreans get jobs at U.S. firms
- valbaca 1y agopaywall, but when I remember hearing about this I couldn't believe she wasn't being charged with treason. She's literally helping North Korea's government siphon money from American companies.
- philipkglass 1y agoTreason is narrowly defined and convictions are very rare under US law: https://theweek.com/articles/869173/brief-history-treason-united-states https://theweek.com/articles/869173/brief-history-treason-un... The history of actual treason, in the sense of federal criminal prosecutions for the concept defined in the Constitution and adopted almost immediately as a federal offense, is remarkably short. Since the ratification of the Constitution in 1789, there have been only 40 federal treason cases, and far fewer convictions. (John Adams secured the passage of the Alien and Sedition Acts in part because the constitutional definition of treason was too narrow.) Even the most famous "traitors" in American history were not technically guilty of treason. Benedict Arnold might plausibly have argued that it was those on the side he betrayed who were guilty of treason; Julius and Ethel Rosenberg were actually convicted of conspiracy to engage in espionage.
- throwawaymaths 1y agoTreason has a high bar in the us, though north Korea is one of the few countries you could get involved with that could land you a treason charge, I believe a state of war still exists between the us and noko. "Treason consists... only of levying war against the United States or adhering to its enemies by providing them aid and comfort."
- ericzawo 1y agoI cannot believe North Korean hackers are having better luck finding a job these days than I am.
- viraptor 1y agoIt's less individual NK hackers and more "an established, well funded interview cheating pipeline" that lands jobs.
- arm32 1y agoI can't believe an actual engineer accepted this low of a salary! Actual engineer:
- joshgachnang 1y agoYup it's definitely an organized group(s). I've gotten so many automated resumes that try different styles, locations, and keywords that I suspect are largely the same group or two. We even had one candidate join a Zoom as the wrong name (who had also applied!), realize his mistake, leave, and rejoin as the correct name.
- aleph_minus_one 1y ago> It's less individual NK hackers and more "an established, well funded interview cheating pipeline" that lands jobs. Just a shower thought: isn't it a missed business opportunity for recruiters from in particular other countries (but also the USA) to set up a similar "well-funded interview (cheating?) pipeline"?
- charliebwrites 1y agoIt would be interesting to see what these hackers are doing in interviews such that they’re landing so many jobs There’s probably even recorded interviews out there with the candidates as data
- nucleardog 1y agoAlmost certain I interviewed one of these guys. Basically, just imagine someone whose _entire_ job was interview prep and acting. (The guy doing the interview is likely not the one doing the job.) And for anything where they have any gaps, they've got a team of people behind them listening in and feeding them answers. Basically every single technical, behavioural, or other question got a 10/10 perfect answer. (To the point where "the answers were too perfect" was one of the many yellow flags.) Part of the reason I'm so sure I interviewed one of these guys is I invested a fair bit of time looking into their background and chasing things up. They'd nailed the interview so hard it was worth digging until I found a red flag on the off chance I _could_ hire them. Honestly the only thing they didn't nail were some of the more "chit-chat" type questions. The guy I interviewed claimed to be in LA while the fires were raging there and... was very confused when discussing the weather and I mentioned smoke.
- standardUser 1y agoOnly 8 1/2 years? I guess this is what you'd call "light treason".
- rwmj 1y agoYes, arguably this is much worse than someone leaking documents to the Russians (Alrdich Ames got a life sentence), because it enables many people to become spies.
- baobabKoodaa 1y agoAnd if the gig doesn't work out, there's always money in the banana stand, Michael.
- dialup_sounds 1y agoShout out to the person that already registered bananastand.ai, may your valuation be high and your acquisition be swift.
- WorldPeas 1y agoI'm sure there was some sympathy for her former homelessness (unmentioned in this article). She was very much an unknowing actor who thought she was a "tech worker" and having never been part of this or around it likely thought her life was perfectly normal. https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/the-everyday-american-who-hustled-for-north-korea/110efe13-3071-43db-85b8-1d44330ce1f6 https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/the-everyday-americ...
- jjtheblunt 1y agoslight digression, but i recently read "treason" only is defined during wartime. not sure how to disambiguate that assertion, though.
- colechristensen 1y agoFor fraud, identity theft, and money laundering, sure. Especially because this really wasn't her plan, but I guess this is a case of somebody getting roped into something that there was pretty good evidence that the person should have known much better.
- yardie 1y agoWhen you hire a 10x developer who is literally 10x developers :-D
- MrCoffee7 1y agoNon-paywalled article on this case: https://fortune.com/2025/07/24/north-korean-it-workers-chapman-nike/ https://fortune.com/2025/07/24/north-korean-it-workers-chapm...
- dang 1y agoThanks! Since https://www.wsj.com/us-news/law/american-sentenced-to-8-years-in-prison-for-helping-north-koreans-get-jobs-at-nike-other-u-s-firms-d7de8be7 https://www.wsj.com/us-news/law/american-sentenced-to-8-year... appears hardwalled and no one has supplied an archive link, I've switched the top URL to this.
- tedggh 1y agoSounds pretty excessive. Not familiar with the whole story, but given how painful is to clear an interview process let alone receive an offer makes me think people at some of these companies had to be involved in the scam.
- kube-system 1y agoWhy would they need to be involved in the scam? A hiring manager or recruiter is already incentivized to hire. This is the danger in hiring people who are fully remote without meeting them in person, which some companies do.
- midtake 1y agoNot involved, but when a company is getting an engineer for 70k who passes the interview, that company is suddenly not that interested in their background.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 1y agoSerious question, if she had been a front for Americans or say German nationals - what would be the charges and sentencing?
- kube-system 1y agoI don't know about Germans, but I do know Americans can legally work in America. There wouldn't be much of a "front" required.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 1y agoMaybe an American wants to be over-employed, has felony convictions, wants to work in ITAR field but married to Russian immigrant, whatever. Some reason to launder the identity. How much worse is the crime because of North Korea? Would it be markedly different for Russia/Iran vs a formerly close ally like Canada.
- 8note 1y agoi expect its also a sanctions violation, not just fraud in this case.
- gleenn 1y agoMaybe similar to how they caught Al Capone: tax evasion. Clearly they wouldn't be paying taxes.
- colechristensen 1y ago>Chapman pleaded guilty today to conspiracy to commit wire fraud, aggravated identity theft, and conspiracy to launder monetary instruments. Probably exactly the same crimes. Germans without the legal status to work in the US would probably be able to get bank accounts so the money laundering would probably just not be necessary.
- mosferatu 1y agoWhy is N. Korea in this respect treated as a boogeyman? Chinese literally do this all the time everywhere, and they’re a far greater threat given their government is malicious AND competent. But NK seems to be the punching bag even though they’re not that big of a deal.
- ripped_britches 1y agoI think you are greatly misinformed. China has literally millions (tens of millions?) of hardworking engineers that do their job and get a paycheck NK has zero of these people. They are basically a sovereign crime syndicate. They get hired and then extort or exfiltrate from their employers. You might be exposed to some of the rampant anti-Chinese propaganda.
- mosferatu 1y ago[flagged]
- tomhow 1y agoPlease don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents, and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- s5300 1y ago[dead]
- NoMoreNicksLeft 1y agoBecause Best Korea is politically/diplomatically permissible. No one gives a shit if the North Korean government is painted as the bad guy (maybe not even the North Korean government!). However, this is 110% the opposite for China and the Chinese government. They are not permissible as the bad guy. So much so that it scuttled a Hollywood reboot of an action movie a decade ago (Red Dawn). Hollywood is on a short leash, but don't be fooled into thinking the capitulation ends there. Even our own politicians know better. If one were generous (I'm not inclined towards generosity) one might wonder if the politicians know that our economy is hostage to the CCP and do not wish to see us harmed, but the more likely explanation is that there's soft corruption that persuades them to sell us down the river. The Chinese have worked hard, tirelessly even, for more than half a century, to make it very difficult to say anything bad about them without repercussions, even in countries far outside China's obvious sphere of influence. North Korea needs to invest in global propaganda efforts if it wishes to get off the jerkwar list...
- deleted 1y ago[deleted]
- sampton 1y agoIt's not that easy fronting a job. I can't imagine one person going through all the interviews and juggle all the communication. Might as well just start your own agency with contractors from India or Philippines.
- WorldPeas 1y agoI think it is a critical omission by this article of this woman's former homelessness. Not that we need to re-litigate that homelessness as a national security issue (though some more urgency may be nice), but this woman is not some unsympathetic traitor, most of what she was doing was over her head. If you watch a few of her tiktok videos, she doesn't seem to clued into what's happening and happy to be normal. It's a shame that it came to this, but I imagine this has happened in other cases that didn't involve state-actors. https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/the-everyday-american-who-hustled-for-north-korea/110efe13-3071-43db-85b8-1d44330ce1f6 https://www.wsj.com/podcasts/the-journal/the-everyday-americ...
- lostmsu 1y agoWhy is it critical? Is there a causation link between homelessness and treason?
- wahnfrieden 1y agoThey're saying that having large numbers of a vulnerable and often disabled population on the brink of day to day survival is a national security risk because they are easily targeted and exploitable. You don't need to find a causal relation to treason specifically to understand. They may not even be aware of what they are involved in.
- moomin 1y agoYou’re making a very good point here. We’ve always known that malign forces of various varieties will exploit the vulnerable in society, and we’ve definitely experimented with trying to imprison every last one of the vulnerable sucked into criminality. The War of Drugs has pretty definitively demonstrated this strategy doesn’t work. Poverty has been a national security issue for some time.
- tehjoker 1y agoJust wait until you realize that the reason we have “national security” is because they are protecting a system that impoverishes americans and the world. North Korea is targeted because it is a socialist counter example. That’s a crime and it must be slandered. This is why this line of argumentation is at once true and will never be persuasive: the poverty is the point of our economic system. That’s what they’re protecting. If Americans were all relatively equal, the economic royalists would have no throne to sit on.
- rdtsc 1y agoNo doubt the NK comrades will take care of her and put extra cash in the prison commissary for chips and pretzels. I wonder if she fully knew how much trouble she could get in and just thought she wouldn't get caught. Or, it was more of a "I am just helping out these nice fellers get jobs. No big deal, I am not bothering anyone" case.
- 0cf8612b2e1e 1y agoWere I perpetrating the scam, no way you let on that the workers are North Korean. Think it is entirely plausible she did not know. If they had said South Korean, who would challenge it?
- sidewndr46 1y agoMore accurately, how would a foreigner identify the difference between a resident of SK or NK? The only plausible way I could do it would be asking them to criticize the premiere of NK
- globalnode 1y agoThats why you have to look after your own people. If you weaken them and make them vulnerable to bad actors this sort of thing will happen. A good argument for a form of socialism no?
- fortran77 1y agoYes! We should be socialists like the strong empowered people of North Korea.
- globalnode 1y agoI would argue NK may be weak because of foreign interference not because socialism, its hard to tell without a proper control. Which is ironic considering the original article complains about foreign interference.
- throwmeaway222 1y agoYou're name is Bill Smith? 예 I mean yes.
- Carisma123 1y ago[flagged]
- walrus01 1y agoFrom an infosec perspective here part of the problem is the many employers' corporation policy on work from home laptops. These laptops were either rigged with one of two things: A) remote desktop software such as anydesk Or B) a kvm over IP device providing a virtual video, keyboard and mouse session to a remote user over html5/tls1.3 If it's option (b), unless this laptop farm operator had in their possession some special DPRK provided unit that identifies its USB manufacturer ID and device ID as something innocuous, this is a problem. People are not using sufficiently tight endpoint security policies and logging to identify USB devices that identify themselves as kvm over IP bridges. Or just permit listing a certain set of allowed external USB keyboards and mice (company provided).
- mittensc 1y agoYou can bypass (b) pretty easily with a raspberry pi pico identifying as keyboard and mouse. Change device id to the whitelisted ones. Then use a hdmi to usb video capture and grab frames from that on the same pico. That's something very easy to do. quick cost is 14E, a pico (7E) plus usb to uvc (~7E)
- vel0city 1y agoIts probably B. And it doesn't have to be some special fancy device. Lots of open source KVM platforms out there let you choose whatever device ID appears for your keyboard and mouse. Here's how to make your PiKVM show up as whatever monitor, keyboard, mouse, cdrom, flash drive, whatever you want. https://docs.pikvm.org/id/ https://docs.pikvm.org/id/ Unless you're not allowing anyone to use any kind of external monitor and you're not letting anyone use pretty generic and common external keyboard and mice your endpoint software is going to be pretty useless. Even if you give them a mouse and keyboard, all they have to do is tell the remote attackers "its a Logitech MK200 keyboard and mouse" and they can make the PiKVM look like a MK200 keyboard and mouse. Same if you try to limit it to only some specific monitor. EDID data can be easily faked, there's no cryptographic validation of USB device IDs or monitor EDID data at all.
- camdroidw 1y agoItt: people hoping shed go to jail..Here's a very small problem-- without intent most perpetrators get off Scott free. She 100% didn't have an intent so she'll be free as she deserves to be.
- hdidydlssjsk 1y agoCommunist dictatorships are the true victims here. I take it you'll take over for your comrade that was arrested by the American pigs?
- Aurornis 1y agoThe amount of remote work scamming going on right now of all types is a real problem. Everyone I know at remote companies has some story about suspicious applicants with fake resumes or even stories about interviewing one person and then someone else showing up on the first video call after they’re hired. That’s not even getting into all of the hires who get 3 remote jobs and then are only available 1/3 of the time, or the remote workers who get a new job and then “quiet quit” and wait for the company to fire them. They realize they can collect an easy 3-6 months of extra paychecks while the company puts them through the PIP process instead of realizing the person isn’t even trying to work there any more.
- Grosvenor 1y agoHow are these people getting by the hiring process? From what I hear (and experienced) even people with decades experience are having trouble finding jobs, but these people are finding three or more?
- Aurornis 1y agoDifferent jobs. The people with decades of experience want a position similar to their last one. The people farming remote jobs don’t want those good jobs targeting experienced people. They want the mid or low paying job that is going to have less competition. The Reddit overemployed posters often brag about making $200K or $300K from working multiple $90 to $100K jobs. Farming low expectation jobs is easier. There are exceptions like the famous Soham guy who was targeting startups. He got those jobs by going after often scrappy startups and e-mailing their founders directly with a prepared statement about how he was a passionate builder who lived for building startups. He also had fake resume experience. After probably hundreds of interview cycles he was good at fooling people. He would get caught because the jobs expected him to be working and available, though. So his strategy was to be always getting new jobs.