18 ms·

What to expect from Debian/Trixie

283 points by exiguus 1y ago

sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
Fair warning: the Trixie update does not allow you to roll back. It is in theory possible but practically it not only fails every single time, but leaves the system in an inconsistent and broken state. (Code for 'soon to be unbootable'). What this means is when you find out stuff breaks, like drivers and application software, and decide the upgrade was a bad idea, you are fucked. More notably, some of the upgrade is irreversible - like MySQL/MariaDB. The database binary format is upgraded during the upgrade. So if you discover something else broke, and you want to go back, it's going to take some work. Ask me how I know.
- bityard 1y ago
  That has never been supported: https://wiki.debian.org/SystemDowngrade https://wiki.debian.org/SystemDowngrade
  - sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
    I said possible, not supported. Too many bits of 'advice' on Stack Overflow, etc. claiming it's possible as top Google results. I'm here to say unequivocally: it does not work, will not work, and will leave the system in an irreversibly broken state. Do not attempt.
    - sigio 1y ago
      Well... then it's always been possible, if you use LVM and create a snapshot before upgrading, then you can revert your snapshot in case it breaks. But this isn't something that would be 'out of the box'... but that's why we make backups, but I can't remember an dist-upgrade ever significantly bricking my systems.
- gilbertbw 1y ago
  The page about upgrading [0] does have this warning: Back up your data Performing a release upgrade is never without risk. The upgrade may fail, leaving the system in a non-functioning state. USERS SHOULD BACKUP ALL DATA before attempting a release upgrade. DebianStability contains more information on these steps. [0] https://wiki.debian.org/DebianUpgrade https://wiki.debian.org/DebianUpgrade
  - sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
    Yet Windows will let you roll back an upgrade with a single click within 10 days. Of course anyone can restore from backups. It's a pain and it's time consuming. My post serves more as a warning to those who may develop buyer's remorse.
    - BoredPositron 1y ago
      You know imaging your machine is still an option...
      - mikae1 1y ago
        But you can't do that on a live system as you can with Windows or macOS. Not a problem for pre release upgrade perhaps. But I'm so missing this feature from macOS.
        pak9rabid 1y ago
        You can if you're using LVM. Take a snapshot of the logical volume your system is on, then run `dd' against the snapshot, as it's essentially a frozen point-in-time. I've used this trick many times in a live, rw environment.
        SAI_Peregrinus 1y ago
        You can snapshot the filesystem if you're using BTRFS, ZFS, or another Copy-on-Write filesystem.
        1y ago
- paulv 1y ago
  > Ask me how I know. What problems did you have that made you want to roll back the update?
  - sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
    I had some containerized application software break and start misbehaving in odd ways which was indicative of a deeper incompatibility issue. Possibly GPU related. No time to debug, had to roll it back. This was complicated by the fact that the machine also hosted a MySQL database which could not be easily rolled back because the database was versioned up during the upgrade.
    - tremon 1y ago
      Wait, the containerized application broke because of a host upgrade? That's some leaky container you have there. This sounds like a business setting, so this sounds like a good opportunity to advocate for testing hardware, a testing budget, a rollout plan, and a sound backup strategy.
  - bobmcnamara 1y ago
    For me it's usually been GPU driver compatibility.
- esaym 1y ago
  You should be using an lvm snapshot. You are not even making a valid complaint.
- yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago
  In all fairness... How would that work? Not even just on Debian; in the general case, I don't see how to avoid that other than full filesystem snapshots or backups of some sort. Even on, say, a NixOS system where rolling back all the software and config (basically, /, /usr, and /etc) to exactly its old config is as easy as rebooting and picking the old generation, databases will still have migrated their on-disk format.
  - JdeBP 1y ago
    Indeed. Snapshots. And they are a breeze on operating systems where ZFS for everything is available. It's not like the Windows feature of the same name, which I suspect is in part what makes people wary of the idea. That works rather differently. A ZFS snapshot completes in seconds.
josephscott 1y ago
"The temporary-files directory /tmp is now stored in a tmpfs" - https://www.debian.org/releases/trixie/release-notes/issues.en.html#the-temporary-files-directory-tmp-is-now-stored-in-a-tmpfs https://www.debian.org/releases/trixie/release-notes/issues.... I am not a fan of that as a default. I'd rather default to cheaper disk space than more limited and expensive memory.
- api 1y ago
  Wait... that means a misbehaving program can cause out of memory errors easily by filling up /tmp? That's a very bad default.
  - paulv 1y ago
    The default configuration for tmpfs is to "only" use 50% of physical ram, which still isn't great, but it's something.
    - foresto 1y ago
      To be clear, that 50% (or whatever you configure) is a limit, not a constant.
  - CamouflagedKiwi 1y ago
    A misbehaving program can cause out of memory errors already by filling up memory. It wouldn't persist past that program's death but the effect is pretty catastrophic on other programs regardless.
    - o11c 1y ago
      That actually is a pretty big difference. Assuming you're sane and have swap disabled (since there is no way to have a stable system with swap enabled), a program that tries to allocate all memory will quickly get OOM killed and the system will recover quickly. If /tmp/ fills up your RAM, the system will not recover automatically, and might not even be recoverable by hand without rebooting. That said, systemd-managed daemons using a private /tmp/ in RAM will correctly clear it when killed.
blueflow 1y ago
TIL there are 14 subtly different naming schemes for network interfaces[1]. "predictable" my ass. [1] https://manpages.debian.org/testing/systemd/systemd.net-naming-scheme.7.en.html#HISTORY https://manpages.debian.org/testing/systemd/systemd.net-nami...
- tlamponi 1y ago
  14 different schemes multiplied by some acting slightly different in every version. Sure you can pin it, but that fixes only their internal back and forth, is only possible via the kernel cmdline and there is no guarantee for how long the old versions will stay available, as they deprecated much more invasive things in the past (e.g., cgroupv1) I'd expect them to also drop older versions here, breaking ones naming again. And sure, one can pin interfaces to custom names, but why should anybody have to bother with such things?! I like systemd a lot, but this is one of the thing they fumbled big time and seemingly still aren't done. Pinning interfaces by their MAC to a short and usable name, would e.g. have been much more stable as doing that by PCI slot, which firmware updates, new hardware, newer kernel exposing newer features, ... changes rather often. This works well for all but virtual functions, but those are sub-devices of their parent interface anyway and can just get named with a suffix added to the parent name.
  - grantla 1y ago
    > as they deprecated much more invasive things in the past (e.g., cgroupv1) I'd expect them to also drop older versions here, breaking ones naming again Note that the naming scheme is in control of systemd, not the kernel. Even if it is passed on the kernel commandline.
    - tlamponi 1y ago
      Yeah, I know, I spent more than a week into looking for options to reduce impact for all of our users. And note that cgroupv1 also still works in the kernel just fine, only the part that systemd controlled was removed from systemd. You can still boot with cgroupv1 support on, e.g., Alpine Linux and OpenRC as init 1. So not sure if that will lessen my concerns about no guarantees for older naming-scheme versions, maintaining triple digits of them sure has its cost too. And don't understand me wrong, sunsetting cgroupv1 was reasonable, but it was a lot of churn, it at least was a one time thing. The network interface naming situation is periodic churn, guaranteed to bite you every now and then just by using the defaults.
ducktective 1y ago
Can anyone experienced with debian package development, point me to some valid, recent and Best Practice™ guides or blog posts explaining how to package stuff for Debian?
- tlamponi 1y ago
  If you want to package something from upstream git then you might want to check out https://optimizedbyotto.com/post/debian-packaging-from-git/ https://optimizedbyotto.com/post/debian-packaging-from-git/ it is relatively new and uses a modernish tooling. The policy manual serves as both ruleset but also explains lots of things w.r.t. packaging, as that's part of the ruleset: https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/index.html# https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/index.html# For actually uploading new packages to the archive you need to be "DD" (Debian Developer), which is a bit more involved process to go through. "DM"s (Debian Maintainer) is easier and can do already lots of things. It's also possible to start out by finding an existing DD that sponsors your upload, i.e. checks your final packaging work and if it looks alright will upload it in your name to the repositories. You might also check out the wiki of Debian, it's sometimes a bit dated and got lots of info packed in, but can still be valuable if you're willing to work through the outdated bits. E.g.: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMentorsFaq https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMentorsFaq
- pss314 1y ago
  Introduction to Debian packaging https://www.debian.org/doc/devel-manuals#packaging-tutorial https://www.debian.org/doc/devel-manuals#packaging-tutorial Best Packaging Practices https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/best-pkging-practices.en.html https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/best...
- o11c 1y ago
  The native Debian package tooling is very far from sane, even compared to other distros - and they actively refuse to make it saner (instead just adding layers of cruft without addressing the core problems). You're probably best off using `checkinstall` or similar, and adding dependencies by hand.
sherr 1y ago
Looking forward to the release. I use Debian Stable on almost all the systems I use (one is stuck on 10/Buster due to MoinMoin). I installed Trixie in a container last week, using an LXC container downloaded from linuxcontainers.org [1]. Three things I noted on the basic install : 1) Ping didn't work due to changed security settings (iputils-ping) [2] 2) OpenSSH server was installed as systemd socket activated and so ignored /etc/ssh/sshd_config*. Maybe this is something specific to the container downloaded. 3) Systemd-resolved uses LLMNR as an name lookup alternative to DNS and pinging a firewalled host failed because the lookup seemed to be LLMNR accessing TCP port 5355. I disabled LLMNR. Generally, Debian version updates have been succesful with me for a few years now, but I always have a backup, and always read the release notes. [1] https://linuxcontainers.org https://linuxcontainers.org [2] https://www.debian.org/releases/trixie/release-notes/issues.en.html#ping-no-longer-runs-with-elevated-privileges https://www.debian.org/releases/trixie/release-notes/issues....
- jimmaswell 1y ago
  The OpenSSH change is madness if it's not a bug. I hope it's not intentional.
  - tharos47 1y ago
    It was done in Ubuntu a few versions ago. Afaik only the listening port config is ignored and instead is setup in systemd
    - hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
      Which is exactly the problem. It’s not obvious, is misleading and it’s cause is not easily determined just by looking at the config. What else is lurking that you and I aren’t aware of?
      - imoverclocked 1y ago
        > What else is lurking that you and I aren’t aware of? All of systemd... and network manager/modem manager/... I grew up with static configuration files, init scripts, inetd, etc... then grew into Solaris smf, dtrace, zones ... and then Linux implemented systemd. I really miss smf and related tools but systemd is still just meh to me. The implementation feels like a somewhat half-in-each-world brainchild.
tcdent 1y ago
Woah Python 3.13 in stable?! (I love Debian) It's going to take a bit for me to get used to having a current version of Python on the system by default.
- doctoboggan 1y ago
  Probably still good practice to use venv and a python executable version maintainer (uv could be used for both).
  - tcdent 1y ago
    Obvs uv, but I'm not going to install a dupe version of python with pyenv if the system version matches my target.
    - seabrookmx 1y ago
      Why use pyenv if you have uv?
deleted 1y ago
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juujian 1y ago
Have been using Trixie on my laptop for a year (?) now, it has been a very positive experience. I had brought a brand new, very recent ThinkPad, not considering that the relevant drivers would not be in Debian Stable yet. Now on Trixie, having a relatively recent version of everything KDE plasma is a blessing. Things have changed so much, for the better, particularly regarding Wayland. The experience with Trixie is already better than it ever was for me with Ubuntu (good riddance!), and I cannot believe that this is supposed to be an unstable release. I broke stuff once, and that was my own fault (forcing update when not all necessary packages were staged yet, learned my lesson on that!).
josteink 1y ago
Just upgraded my laptop the other day. sway and/or libinput now supports mouse-pad gestures so you can configure tjree-finger swiping between workspaces. Very much appreciated.
willemlaurentz 1y ago
Warning for those running Debian and Dovecot under stable. In this new stable release, an update to Dovecot will break your configuration: https://willem.com/blog/2025-06-04_breaking-changes/ https://willem.com/blog/2025-06-04_breaking-changes/
- tok1 1y ago
  Not only that: Dovecot 2.4 will also remove the functionalities of dsync, replicator and director [1]. This is frustrating and a big loss as these enabled e.g. very simple and reliable two-node (active-active) redundant setups, which will not be possible anymore with 2.4. I use it for years to achieve HA for personal mail servers and will now have to look for alternatives -- until then will stick with Debian Bookworm and its Dovecot 2.3. [1] https://doc.dovecot.org/2.4.0/installation/upgrade/2.3-to-2.4.html#removed-features https://doc.dovecot.org/2.4.0/installation/upgrade/2.3-to-2....
  - layer8 1y ago
    You might be interested in https://codeberg.org/errror/dovecot-replication https://codeberg.org/errror/dovecot-replication.
    - tok1 1y ago
      Thank you!
  - pmontra 1y ago
    I usually fix those kind of problems by running the offending software in a docker container, with the correct version. Sometimes the boundaries of the container create their own problems. Dovecot 2.3 is at https://hub.docker.com/r/dovecot/dovecot/tags?name=2.3 https://hub.docker.com/r/dovecot/dovecot/tags?name=2.3
  - traceroute66 1y ago
    > I use it for years to achieve HA for personal mail servers and will now have to look for alternatives Yeah, Dovecot seem to be going hardline commercial. Basically the open-source version will be maintained as a single server solution. Looks like if you want supported HA etc. you'll have to pay the big bucks. There is a video up on YouTube[1] where their Sales Director is speaking at a conference and he said (rough transcript): "there will be an open source version, but that open source version will be maintained for single server use only. we are actually taking out anything any actually kinda' involves multiple servers, dsync replication and err some other stuff. so dovecot will be a fully-featured single node server" Have you looked at Stalwart[2] as an alternative ? [1] https://youtu.be/s-JYrjCKshA?t=912 https://youtu.be/s-JYrjCKshA?t=912 [2] https://stalw.art/ https://stalw.art/
endorphine 1y ago
So hyped for this release, since it will result in nice bugfixes (autorandr, Polybar) and me simplifying my dotfiles. Many thanks to all Debian developers!
elcapitan 1y ago
I've been running Trixie since I bought my Framework laptop last September, and it has been great. First Linux experience after 20 years of Mac, and everything has been incredibly stable. Now I need to figure out what happens when my testing suddenly is stable, and how to get on the next testing, I guess.
- juujian 1y ago
  There is basically two different configurations. If your `sources.list` is explicitly on Trixie, it will stay there. If it is on testing, then you will get the next testing release in time.
anthk 1y ago
Upgrade to trixie and enable backports. You'll maybe get the last kernel, MESA, libreoffice, browsers and whatnot without hurting the rest of the system.
bootsmann 1y ago
Debian upgrading Podman to a version above 4.3.1 hopefully also means we get Quadlet support on raspberry pis. Took them forever to add this.
kelnos 1y ago
I've been running testing/trixie since the end of 2023 or so. (I generally always run testing, but stick with stable for ~6 months after stabilization, in order to avoid lots of package churn in new-testing.) It's been what I expect from Debian: boring and functional. I've never run into an issue where the system wouldn't boot after an update (I usually update once every 2-4 weeks when on testing), and for the most part everything has worked without the need to fix broken packages or utter magic apt incantations. Debian has always been very impressive to me. They're certainly not perfect, but what they can do based on volunteers, donations, and sponsors, is amazing.
- exiguus 1y ago
  This could be me. I do the same, and i already plan to update to Forky at the beginning of 2026.
  - _fat_santa 1y ago
    > plan to update to Forky Why do you want to switch to Ubuntu? I'm sorry I had to, I'll show myself out
- tguvot 1y ago
  i been running unstable since 2004 or so. i think it broke only once when I skipped year of updates
- progmetaldev 1y ago
  This is exactly why I use Debian when I install Linux. I want something that will keep chugging along, yet may not have the most cutting edge software. I can take my time with the system, and know that it is solid. If I need newer software that isn't in their package repository, I understand that I have the ability to compile what I need, or at least make an active decision to modify my system to run what I want. Basically, the possibility of instability is a conscious choice for me, which I do sometimes take.
  - rurban 1y ago
olivierestsage 1y ago
Pumped for this. I was (and am) massively impressed with Debian 12. I've been an on-again off-again Linux user since around 2003, but this release was the one that finally got me to switch completely. The jank factor actually seems to be less than that of Windows and macOS at this point, which I never thought I'd say.
demetris 1y ago
Trixie is SUPER for desktop use! I’ve been on sid for the last 10 months for my laptop (old T450s) and my secondary desktop, and it is really fun. There are annoyances but they are not related to Debian itself. FIRST I decided it is time to switch to Wayland. Now my favorite run-or-raise app (Kupfer) cannot do run-or-raise. But there is a really nice extension to do run-or-raise on GNOME without the aggressive disruption of the Activities overview: Switcher. The other thing that is difficult on Wayland is text expansion. I have not found a solution for that part. SECOND The annoying to infuriating things that GNOME likes doing sometimes. But that is a constant. Nothing new. Congrats and thanks to all the Debian people!
- vanviegen 1y ago
  Just using KDE solves both your problems.
  - demetris 1y ago
    Ahahahaha! The reply writes itself, doesn’t it? :-D I like GNOME more though, in general. I just want GNOME without some of the unfathomable stuff, and with the progress KDE has made with Wayland.
    - spookie 1y ago
      Fair, but give it a try in the meantime. Start by using the minimal one. It has its upsides and downsides. I really just wish I wouldn't rely so heavily on extensions in GNOME, really. That and being able to add things in nautilus context menu in a sane manner.
LePetitPrince 1y ago
[dead]
1oooqooq 1y ago
why even include Intel xeon cpu drm? are xeons still available?
- seabrookmx 1y ago
  Lol what? Yes, every data center in the world still runs on Intel Xeon because AMD can't get a big enough allocation at TSMC to meet demand. The reports of Intel's death are greatly exaggerated.
snvzz 1y ago
This is the first release with support for RISC-V, at the same level as arm64 or amd64. For half a year now, I've run trixie on RISC-V (VisionFive 2 board), with ZFS root, without issue.
swayvil 1y ago
I installed it 5 days ago. Changed my sources and upgraded. It's got the latest Angband (4.2.5). Homestyle SDL ui.
h4kunamata 1y ago
What to expect?? The usual: light, stable and functional. I run older version as my DNS servers and homelad stuff, opensource 3D printer, etc. Debian just works with no dramas. I run it in text mode only so boot takes what ~3-5 seconds.
unixhero 1y ago
Debian has two long running bugs When you su to root, the whole path or a different path is loaded. One has to type su and then su - in order to reach all the regular bin and abin directories. It is flagged, but Debian team won't fix. As a user it is not great. Secondly, Debian now ships with Raspberrypifirmware package, even on intel installs. When you enable backports to install a newer kernel, this fails due to this package bring there . It ks a major hassle to fix, and without Chatgpt/competitors it is very easy to get lost troubleshooting this.
bondant 1y ago
Does someone know if there's an increase in memory usage for Gnome or if it's about the same? I am wondering if I can update an old computer with only 4GB of memory.
- CopyOnWrite 1y ago
  Running Trixie/Gnome on a machine with 4GB (3.6GB usable) w/o any trouble. Gnome runs better than ever, the problem is in my experience usually the web browser when it comes to RAM usage. Install ZRAM and the machine should be perfectly usable, if your usage patterns are similar to mine. (Only thing which annoys me is that I cannot find an excuse to buy a better computer, because everything simply works on the machine...)
  - bondant 1y ago
    Thanks for the feedback!
CopyOnWrite 1y ago
Tried to upgrade from Bookworm to Trixie for my desktops end of April. Only thing that was broken was the desktop background, everything else worked great w/o any issue and even solved some trouble I had to fix by hand for Bookworm (WiFi sleep mode), so I upgraded all my physical and virtual machines. Had no issues at all, only thing annoying compared to running stable was the amount of updated packages, which again run trough w/o any hitch and I have to take full responsibility. ;-) Highly recommended if you want a Linux distribution for a server or a desktop which simply works and keeps working.
traceroute66 1y ago
I'm very fond of Debian, fantastic OS. But what I really wish is they would some have more automation options suitable for the modern cloud world, e.g. something similar to Butane/Ignition as used on CoreOS. I know there's cloud-init but that's hacky, verbose and opinionated compared to something like Butane/Ignition. I also know there's ansible etc. in Debian distro but that's kind of yesterday's solution.
dsr_ 1y ago
A few months prior to every Stable release, people start raving about how awesome running Testing is, how it has up-to-date packages and fixes their kernel issues and solves world hunger and capitalism. This is because Testing has done a soft freeze, then a hard freeze, then is prepped to become the new Stable. During that process, nothing new can be added to Testing. Then, one day, Stable is released and the floodgates on Testing re-open. The people who specified "Trixie" are fine: they are now running Stable. The people who specified "testing" in their apt sources, or are installing Testing based on the wonderful reports of just a month ago, are in for a terrible experience. And... anyone who installed Stable as "stable" instead of "bookworm" is now getting upgraded shortly after release day, instead of at their convenience. This happens every cycle. Never recommend that anyone new to Debian should install Testing, even if it's about to become Stable. Unless you are working on throwaway systems, always specify a codename for release, not "stable" or "testing" or "unstable".
- hiq 1y ago
  Good advice! I'm on stable like 3/4 of the time, until there's some newer package version I want and that happens to be in testing, at which point I switch (using the codename as you suggest instead of Testing). If I don't have a specific need, I tend to switch during the soft or hard freeze, out of curiosity, because I never had problems doing that.
move-on-by 1y ago
I’m most excited about wcurl and the —update flag for Apt. Everything is fine without them, but it’s nice QoL enhancements.
kristianp 1y ago
One problem I have with major version upgrades of Linux distributions is the number of changes to different programs/systems. Every 18 months I have to learn how to do a number of things differently. Program x disappears, you are told you have to use y now. Linux has been around for decades at this point. Something that old should be considered mature and not need major changes. Do we really need a new major version of gtk/qt or a different firewall program, when all those things have existed for many years?

283 points by exiguus 1y ago

Fair warning: the Trixie update does not allow you to roll back. It is in theory possible but practically it not only fails every single time, but leaves the system in an inconsistent and broken state. (Code for 'soon to be unbootable'). What this means is when you find out stuff breaks, like drivers and application software, and decide the upgrade was a bad idea, you are fucked. More notably, some of the upgrade is irreversible - like MySQL/MariaDB. The database binary format is upgraded during the upgrade. So if you discover something else broke, and you want to go back, it's going to take some work. Ask me how I know.

bityard 1y ago
That has never been supported: https://wiki.debian.org/SystemDowngrade https://wiki.debian.org/SystemDowngrade
- sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
  I said possible, not supported. Too many bits of 'advice' on Stack Overflow, etc. claiming it's possible as top Google results. I'm here to say unequivocally: it does not work, will not work, and will leave the system in an irreversibly broken state. Do not attempt.
  - sigio 1y ago
    Well... then it's always been possible, if you use LVM and create a snapshot before upgrading, then you can revert your snapshot in case it breaks. But this isn't something that would be 'out of the box'... but that's why we make backups, but I can't remember an dist-upgrade ever significantly bricking my systems.
gilbertbw 1y ago
The page about upgrading [0] does have this warning: Back up your data Performing a release upgrade is never without risk. The upgrade may fail, leaving the system in a non-functioning state. USERS SHOULD BACKUP ALL DATA before attempting a release upgrade. DebianStability contains more information on these steps. [0] https://wiki.debian.org/DebianUpgrade https://wiki.debian.org/DebianUpgrade
- sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
  Yet Windows will let you roll back an upgrade with a single click within 10 days. Of course anyone can restore from backups. It's a pain and it's time consuming. My post serves more as a warning to those who may develop buyer's remorse.
  - BoredPositron 1y ago
    You know imaging your machine is still an option...
    - mikae1 1y ago
      But you can't do that on a live system as you can with Windows or macOS. Not a problem for pre release upgrade perhaps. But I'm so missing this feature from macOS.
      - pak9rabid 1y ago
        You can if you're using LVM. Take a snapshot of the logical volume your system is on, then run `dd' against the snapshot, as it's essentially a frozen point-in-time. I've used this trick many times in a live, rw environment.
      - SAI_Peregrinus 1y ago
        You can snapshot the filesystem if you're using BTRFS, ZFS, or another Copy-on-Write filesystem.
      - 1y ago
paulv 1y ago
> Ask me how I know. What problems did you have that made you want to roll back the update?
- sugarpimpdorsey 1y ago
  I had some containerized application software break and start misbehaving in odd ways which was indicative of a deeper incompatibility issue. Possibly GPU related. No time to debug, had to roll it back. This was complicated by the fact that the machine also hosted a MySQL database which could not be easily rolled back because the database was versioned up during the upgrade.
  - tremon 1y ago
    Wait, the containerized application broke because of a host upgrade? That's some leaky container you have there. This sounds like a business setting, so this sounds like a good opportunity to advocate for testing hardware, a testing budget, a rollout plan, and a sound backup strategy.
- bobmcnamara 1y ago
  For me it's usually been GPU driver compatibility.
esaym 1y ago
You should be using an lvm snapshot. You are not even making a valid complaint.
yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago
In all fairness... How would that work? Not even just on Debian; in the general case, I don't see how to avoid that other than full filesystem snapshots or backups of some sort. Even on, say, a NixOS system where rolling back all the software and config (basically, /, /usr, and /etc) to exactly its old config is as easy as rebooting and picking the old generation, databases will still have migrated their on-disk format.
- JdeBP 1y ago
  Indeed. Snapshots. And they are a breeze on operating systems where ZFS for everything is available. It's not like the Windows feature of the same name, which I suspect is in part what makes people wary of the idea. That works rather differently. A ZFS snapshot completes in seconds.

josephscott 1y ago

"The temporary-files directory /tmp is now stored in a tmpfs" - https://www.debian.org/releases/trixie/release-notes/issues.en.html#the-temporary-files-directory-tmp-is-now-stored-in-a-tmpfs https://www.debian.org/releases/trixie/release-notes/issues.... I am not a fan of that as a default. I'd rather default to cheaper disk space than more limited and expensive memory.

api 1y ago
Wait... that means a misbehaving program can cause out of memory errors easily by filling up /tmp? That's a very bad default.
- paulv 1y ago
  The default configuration for tmpfs is to "only" use 50% of physical ram, which still isn't great, but it's something.
  - foresto 1y ago
    To be clear, that 50% (or whatever you configure) is a limit, not a constant.
- CamouflagedKiwi 1y ago
  A misbehaving program can cause out of memory errors already by filling up memory. It wouldn't persist past that program's death but the effect is pretty catastrophic on other programs regardless.
  - o11c 1y ago
    That actually is a pretty big difference. Assuming you're sane and have swap disabled (since there is no way to have a stable system with swap enabled), a program that tries to allocate all memory will quickly get OOM killed and the system will recover quickly. If /tmp/ fills up your RAM, the system will not recover automatically, and might not even be recoverable by hand without rebooting. That said, systemd-managed daemons using a private /tmp/ in RAM will correctly clear it when killed.

blueflow 1y ago

TIL there are 14 subtly different naming schemes for network interfaces[1]. "predictable" my ass. [1] https://manpages.debian.org/testing/systemd/systemd.net-naming-scheme.7.en.html#HISTORY https://manpages.debian.org/testing/systemd/systemd.net-nami...

tlamponi 1y ago
14 different schemes multiplied by some acting slightly different in every version. Sure you can pin it, but that fixes only their internal back and forth, is only possible via the kernel cmdline and there is no guarantee for how long the old versions will stay available, as they deprecated much more invasive things in the past (e.g., cgroupv1) I'd expect them to also drop older versions here, breaking ones naming again. And sure, one can pin interfaces to custom names, but why should anybody have to bother with such things?! I like systemd a lot, but this is one of the thing they fumbled big time and seemingly still aren't done. Pinning interfaces by their MAC to a short and usable name, would e.g. have been much more stable as doing that by PCI slot, which firmware updates, new hardware, newer kernel exposing newer features, ... changes rather often. This works well for all but virtual functions, but those are sub-devices of their parent interface anyway and can just get named with a suffix added to the parent name.
- grantla 1y ago
  > as they deprecated much more invasive things in the past (e.g., cgroupv1) I'd expect them to also drop older versions here, breaking ones naming again Note that the naming scheme is in control of systemd, not the kernel. Even if it is passed on the kernel commandline.
  - tlamponi 1y ago
    Yeah, I know, I spent more than a week into looking for options to reduce impact for all of our users. And note that cgroupv1 also still works in the kernel just fine, only the part that systemd controlled was removed from systemd. You can still boot with cgroupv1 support on, e.g., Alpine Linux and OpenRC as init 1. So not sure if that will lessen my concerns about no guarantees for older naming-scheme versions, maintaining triple digits of them sure has its cost too. And don't understand me wrong, sunsetting cgroupv1 was reasonable, but it was a lot of churn, it at least was a one time thing. The network interface naming situation is periodic churn, guaranteed to bite you every now and then just by using the defaults.

ducktective 1y ago

Can anyone experienced with debian package development, point me to some valid, recent and Best Practice™ guides or blog posts explaining how to package stuff for Debian?

tlamponi 1y ago
If you want to package something from upstream git then you might want to check out https://optimizedbyotto.com/post/debian-packaging-from-git/ https://optimizedbyotto.com/post/debian-packaging-from-git/ it is relatively new and uses a modernish tooling. The policy manual serves as both ruleset but also explains lots of things w.r.t. packaging, as that's part of the ruleset: https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/index.html# https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/index.html# For actually uploading new packages to the archive you need to be "DD" (Debian Developer), which is a bit more involved process to go through. "DM"s (Debian Maintainer) is easier and can do already lots of things. It's also possible to start out by finding an existing DD that sponsors your upload, i.e. checks your final packaging work and if it looks alright will upload it in your name to the repositories. You might also check out the wiki of Debian, it's sometimes a bit dated and got lots of info packed in, but can still be valuable if you're willing to work through the outdated bits. E.g.: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMentorsFaq https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMentorsFaq
pss314 1y ago
Introduction to Debian packaging https://www.debian.org/doc/devel-manuals#packaging-tutorial https://www.debian.org/doc/devel-manuals#packaging-tutorial Best Packaging Practices https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/best-pkging-practices.en.html https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/best...
o11c 1y ago
The native Debian package tooling is very far from sane, even compared to other distros - and they actively refuse to make it saner (instead just adding layers of cruft without addressing the core problems). You're probably best off using `checkinstall` or similar, and adding dependencies by hand.

sherr 1y ago

Looking forward to the release. I use Debian Stable on almost all the systems I use (one is stuck on 10/Buster due to MoinMoin). I installed Trixie in a container last week, using an LXC container downloaded from linuxcontainers.org [1]. Three things I noted on the basic install : 1) Ping didn't work due to changed security settings (iputils-ping) [2] 2) OpenSSH server was installed as systemd socket activated and so ignored /etc/ssh/sshd_config*. Maybe this is something specific to the container downloaded. 3) Systemd-resolved uses LLMNR as an name lookup alternative to DNS and pinging a firewalled host failed because the lookup seemed to be LLMNR accessing TCP port 5355. I disabled LLMNR. Generally, Debian version updates have been succesful with me for a few years now, but I always have a backup, and always read the release notes. [1] https://linuxcontainers.org https://linuxcontainers.org [2] https://www.debian.org/releases/trixie/release-notes/issues.en.html#ping-no-longer-runs-with-elevated-privileges https://www.debian.org/releases/trixie/release-notes/issues....

jimmaswell 1y ago
The OpenSSH change is madness if it's not a bug. I hope it's not intentional.
- tharos47 1y ago
  It was done in Ubuntu a few versions ago. Afaik only the listening port config is ignored and instead is setup in systemd
  - hsbauauvhabzb 1y ago
    Which is exactly the problem. It’s not obvious, is misleading and it’s cause is not easily determined just by looking at the config. What else is lurking that you and I aren’t aware of?
    - imoverclocked 1y ago
      > What else is lurking that you and I aren’t aware of? All of systemd... and network manager/modem manager/... I grew up with static configuration files, init scripts, inetd, etc... then grew into Solaris smf, dtrace, zones ... and then Linux implemented systemd. I really miss smf and related tools but systemd is still just meh to me. The implementation feels like a somewhat half-in-each-world brainchild.

tcdent 1y ago

Woah Python 3.13 in stable?! (I love Debian) It's going to take a bit for me to get used to having a current version of Python on the system by default.

doctoboggan 1y ago
Probably still good practice to use venv and a python executable version maintainer (uv could be used for both).
- tcdent 1y ago
  Obvs uv, but I'm not going to install a dupe version of python with pyenv if the system version matches my target.
  - seabrookmx 1y ago
    Why use pyenv if you have uv?

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

juujian 1y ago

Have been using Trixie on my laptop for a year (?) now, it has been a very positive experience. I had brought a brand new, very recent ThinkPad, not considering that the relevant drivers would not be in Debian Stable yet. Now on Trixie, having a relatively recent version of everything KDE plasma is a blessing. Things have changed so much, for the better, particularly regarding Wayland. The experience with Trixie is already better than it ever was for me with Ubuntu (good riddance!), and I cannot believe that this is supposed to be an unstable release. I broke stuff once, and that was my own fault (forcing update when not all necessary packages were staged yet, learned my lesson on that!).

josteink 1y ago

Just upgraded my laptop the other day. sway and/or libinput now supports mouse-pad gestures so you can configure tjree-finger swiping between workspaces. Very much appreciated.

willemlaurentz 1y ago

Warning for those running Debian and Dovecot under stable. In this new stable release, an update to Dovecot will break your configuration: https://willem.com/blog/2025-06-04_breaking-changes/ https://willem.com/blog/2025-06-04_breaking-changes/

tok1 1y ago
Not only that: Dovecot 2.4 will also remove the functionalities of dsync, replicator and director [1]. This is frustrating and a big loss as these enabled e.g. very simple and reliable two-node (active-active) redundant setups, which will not be possible anymore with 2.4. I use it for years to achieve HA for personal mail servers and will now have to look for alternatives -- until then will stick with Debian Bookworm and its Dovecot 2.3. [1] https://doc.dovecot.org/2.4.0/installation/upgrade/2.3-to-2.4.html#removed-features https://doc.dovecot.org/2.4.0/installation/upgrade/2.3-to-2....
- layer8 1y ago
  You might be interested in https://codeberg.org/errror/dovecot-replication https://codeberg.org/errror/dovecot-replication.
  - tok1 1y ago
    Thank you!
- pmontra 1y ago
  I usually fix those kind of problems by running the offending software in a docker container, with the correct version. Sometimes the boundaries of the container create their own problems. Dovecot 2.3 is at https://hub.docker.com/r/dovecot/dovecot/tags?name=2.3 https://hub.docker.com/r/dovecot/dovecot/tags?name=2.3
- traceroute66 1y ago
  > I use it for years to achieve HA for personal mail servers and will now have to look for alternatives Yeah, Dovecot seem to be going hardline commercial. Basically the open-source version will be maintained as a single server solution. Looks like if you want supported HA etc. you'll have to pay the big bucks. There is a video up on YouTube[1] where their Sales Director is speaking at a conference and he said (rough transcript): "there will be an open source version, but that open source version will be maintained for single server use only. we are actually taking out anything any actually kinda' involves multiple servers, dsync replication and err some other stuff. so dovecot will be a fully-featured single node server" Have you looked at Stalwart[2] as an alternative ? [1] https://youtu.be/s-JYrjCKshA?t=912 https://youtu.be/s-JYrjCKshA?t=912 [2] https://stalw.art/ https://stalw.art/

endorphine 1y ago

So hyped for this release, since it will result in nice bugfixes (autorandr, Polybar) and me simplifying my dotfiles. Many thanks to all Debian developers!

elcapitan 1y ago

I've been running Trixie since I bought my Framework laptop last September, and it has been great. First Linux experience after 20 years of Mac, and everything has been incredibly stable. Now I need to figure out what happens when my testing suddenly is stable, and how to get on the next testing, I guess.

juujian 1y ago
There is basically two different configurations. If your `sources.list` is explicitly on Trixie, it will stay there. If it is on testing, then you will get the next testing release in time.

anthk 1y ago

Upgrade to trixie and enable backports. You'll maybe get the last kernel, MESA, libreoffice, browsers and whatnot without hurting the rest of the system.

bootsmann 1y ago

Debian upgrading Podman to a version above 4.3.1 hopefully also means we get Quadlet support on raspberry pis. Took them forever to add this.

kelnos 1y ago

I've been running testing/trixie since the end of 2023 or so. (I generally always run testing, but stick with stable for ~6 months after stabilization, in order to avoid lots of package churn in new-testing.) It's been what I expect from Debian: boring and functional. I've never run into an issue where the system wouldn't boot after an update (I usually update once every 2-4 weeks when on testing), and for the most part everything has worked without the need to fix broken packages or utter magic apt incantations. Debian has always been very impressive to me. They're certainly not perfect, but what they can do based on volunteers, donations, and sponsors, is amazing.

exiguus 1y ago
This could be me. I do the same, and i already plan to update to Forky at the beginning of 2026.
- _fat_santa 1y ago
  > plan to update to Forky Why do you want to switch to Ubuntu? I'm sorry I had to, I'll show myself out
tguvot 1y ago
i been running unstable since 2004 or so. i think it broke only once when I skipped year of updates
progmetaldev 1y ago
This is exactly why I use Debian when I install Linux. I want something that will keep chugging along, yet may not have the most cutting edge software. I can take my time with the system, and know that it is solid. If I need newer software that isn't in their package repository, I understand that I have the ability to compile what I need, or at least make an active decision to modify my system to run what I want. Basically, the possibility of instability is a conscious choice for me, which I do sometimes take.
- rurban 1y ago

olivierestsage 1y ago

Pumped for this. I was (and am) massively impressed with Debian 12. I've been an on-again off-again Linux user since around 2003, but this release was the one that finally got me to switch completely. The jank factor actually seems to be less than that of Windows and macOS at this point, which I never thought I'd say.

demetris 1y ago

Trixie is SUPER for desktop use! I’ve been on sid for the last 10 months for my laptop (old T450s) and my secondary desktop, and it is really fun. There are annoyances but they are not related to Debian itself. FIRST I decided it is time to switch to Wayland. Now my favorite run-or-raise app (Kupfer) cannot do run-or-raise. But there is a really nice extension to do run-or-raise on GNOME without the aggressive disruption of the Activities overview: Switcher. The other thing that is difficult on Wayland is text expansion. I have not found a solution for that part. SECOND The annoying to infuriating things that GNOME likes doing sometimes. But that is a constant. Nothing new. Congrats and thanks to all the Debian people!

vanviegen 1y ago
Just using KDE solves both your problems.
- demetris 1y ago
  Ahahahaha! The reply writes itself, doesn’t it? :-D I like GNOME more though, in general. I just want GNOME without some of the unfathomable stuff, and with the progress KDE has made with Wayland.
  - spookie 1y ago
    Fair, but give it a try in the meantime. Start by using the minimal one. It has its upsides and downsides. I really just wish I wouldn't rely so heavily on extensions in GNOME, really. That and being able to add things in nautilus context menu in a sane manner.

LePetitPrince 1y ago

[dead]

1oooqooq 1y ago

why even include Intel xeon cpu drm? are xeons still available?

seabrookmx 1y ago
Lol what? Yes, every data center in the world still runs on Intel Xeon because AMD can't get a big enough allocation at TSMC to meet demand. The reports of Intel's death are greatly exaggerated.

snvzz 1y ago

This is the first release with support for RISC-V, at the same level as arm64 or amd64. For half a year now, I've run trixie on RISC-V (VisionFive 2 board), with ZFS root, without issue.

swayvil 1y ago

I installed it 5 days ago. Changed my sources and upgraded. It's got the latest Angband (4.2.5). Homestyle SDL ui.

h4kunamata 1y ago

What to expect?? The usual: light, stable and functional. I run older version as my DNS servers and homelad stuff, opensource 3D printer, etc. Debian just works with no dramas. I run it in text mode only so boot takes what ~3-5 seconds.

unixhero 1y ago

Debian has two long running bugs When you su to root, the whole path or a different path is loaded. One has to type su and then su - in order to reach all the regular bin and abin directories. It is flagged, but Debian team won't fix. As a user it is not great. Secondly, Debian now ships with Raspberrypifirmware package, even on intel installs. When you enable backports to install a newer kernel, this fails due to this package bring there . It ks a major hassle to fix, and without Chatgpt/competitors it is very easy to get lost troubleshooting this.

bondant 1y ago

Does someone know if there's an increase in memory usage for Gnome or if it's about the same? I am wondering if I can update an old computer with only 4GB of memory.

CopyOnWrite 1y ago
Running Trixie/Gnome on a machine with 4GB (3.6GB usable) w/o any trouble. Gnome runs better than ever, the problem is in my experience usually the web browser when it comes to RAM usage. Install ZRAM and the machine should be perfectly usable, if your usage patterns are similar to mine. (Only thing which annoys me is that I cannot find an excuse to buy a better computer, because everything simply works on the machine...)
- bondant 1y ago
  Thanks for the feedback!

CopyOnWrite 1y ago

Tried to upgrade from Bookworm to Trixie for my desktops end of April. Only thing that was broken was the desktop background, everything else worked great w/o any issue and even solved some trouble I had to fix by hand for Bookworm (WiFi sleep mode), so I upgraded all my physical and virtual machines. Had no issues at all, only thing annoying compared to running stable was the amount of updated packages, which again run trough w/o any hitch and I have to take full responsibility. ;-) Highly recommended if you want a Linux distribution for a server or a desktop which simply works and keeps working.

traceroute66 1y ago

I'm very fond of Debian, fantastic OS. But what I really wish is they would some have more automation options suitable for the modern cloud world, e.g. something similar to Butane/Ignition as used on CoreOS. I know there's cloud-init but that's hacky, verbose and opinionated compared to something like Butane/Ignition. I also know there's ansible etc. in Debian distro but that's kind of yesterday's solution.

dsr_ 1y ago

A few months prior to every Stable release, people start raving about how awesome running Testing is, how it has up-to-date packages and fixes their kernel issues and solves world hunger and capitalism. This is because Testing has done a soft freeze, then a hard freeze, then is prepped to become the new Stable. During that process, nothing new can be added to Testing. Then, one day, Stable is released and the floodgates on Testing re-open. The people who specified "Trixie" are fine: they are now running Stable. The people who specified "testing" in their apt sources, or are installing Testing based on the wonderful reports of just a month ago, are in for a terrible experience. And... anyone who installed Stable as "stable" instead of "bookworm" is now getting upgraded shortly after release day, instead of at their convenience. This happens every cycle. Never recommend that anyone new to Debian should install Testing, even if it's about to become Stable. Unless you are working on throwaway systems, always specify a codename for release, not "stable" or "testing" or "unstable".

hiq 1y ago
Good advice! I'm on stable like 3/4 of the time, until there's some newer package version I want and that happens to be in testing, at which point I switch (using the codename as you suggest instead of Testing). If I don't have a specific need, I tend to switch during the soft or hard freeze, out of curiosity, because I never had problems doing that.

move-on-by 1y ago

I’m most excited about wcurl and the —update flag for Apt. Everything is fine without them, but it’s nice QoL enhancements.

kristianp 1y ago

One problem I have with major version upgrades of Linux distributions is the number of changes to different programs/systems. Every 18 months I have to learn how to do a number of things differently. Program x disappears, you are told you have to use y now. Linux has been around for decades at this point. Something that old should be considered mature and not need major changes. Do we really need a new major version of gtk/qt or a different firewall program, when all those things have existed for many years?