4 ms·

The key thing is: Europe has product standards (and not just on safety), sometimes very strict ones. We have democratically agreed upon these, often enough only

The key thing is: Europe has product standards (and not just on safety), sometimes very strict ones. We have democratically agreed upon these, often enough only as a response to the industry being unable or unwilling (cough Apple and USB-C) to do the right thing on its own. In addition, we have warranty requirements (a minimum of two years), minimum wage and workplace safety regulations. Now Temu, Shein, lots of the shops on Alibaba, Amazon and eBay... they all push stuff into Europe that violates these standards and can be sold cheaper as a result. That is bad on three sides: First, for the dangerous stuff (such as the toys with choking hazards, lead paint or the "chinesium" Big Clive routinely pulls out of shady eBay sales), that's directly endangering our people and/or our environment. And second, all the stuff made and imported that violates requirements is undercutting our domestic production and economy who does have to follow the regulations or otherwise it gets fined. And finally: a lot of the stuff particularly on Temu and Shein is outright garbage, falling apart after a few uses - and then it ends in our landfills and waste disposals. A horrible waste from an environment perspective, especially given that a lot of the junk comes in via air freight of all things!

palata 1y ago
> they all push stuff into Europe that violates these standards and can be sold cheaper as a result. I understand that and I agree that it should be regulated. But on the other hand, I can order 50 zippers on Temu for 2$, and if I go to a local store they sell one for 10$. I bought both, and they are exactly the same. So one zipper on Temu costs 4 cents, versus 10$ in a local store. That's 250x more expensive. Doesn't seem reasonable.
- mschuster91 1y ago
  > I bought both, and they are exactly the same. They are not. With the one you buy at your local store, you get the two years warranty, and should the thing contain, say, lead paint you can hold the seller accountable. Good luck doing the same against Temu. In addition, you pay a markup at the physical store for stockkeeping. Yeah sure, I can order the small capacitor for some fried PLC adapter on Amazon. No doubt. But I'll need to wait about two days for shipping, whereas the local electronics store has it right now when I need it.
  - palata 1y ago
    > They are not. With the one you buy at your local store, you get the two years warranty And with the Temu one I get 250 units for the same price. I don't know how often you break a zipper, but 250x in two years sounds like a lot :-). > should the thing contain, say, lead paint you can hold the seller accountable. I understand what you are saying, but honestly I doubt they check every 10cm of every zipper for traces of lead (or other). If there is ever an issue, maybe (?) they will recall them somehow, but I probably won't ever know (say I paid cash, they don't have a way to contact me at all, and with a credit card I'm not sure if they can / will find my contact ever). > But I'll need to wait about two days for shipping, whereas the local electronics store has it right now when I need it. Sure! But the fact is that I'm absolutely fine waiting 2 days if it costs me 250x less. Actually with Temu it's more a few weeks, I would think? Still worth it for zippers. If the zipper was sold for 1$ in the local store, that would be different. But 10$? At this point I just don't want the zipper at all. So in a way it's not really "Temu vs local store". If I don't get it on Temu, I don't get it at all.
    - 9dev 1y ago
      If you leave your personal gain aside for one moment, don’t you see how that just means you’ll throw 246 of them away because you don’t need them, minus the three replacements for the bad quality? Don’t you see how that cannot be positive, to have so much waste, instead of proper QA and manufacturers doing the right thing for fear of litigation? These manufacturers pay taxes and employ people. Both of these contribute to our wealth. Making it harder for local businesses to sustain themselves will lower or quality of life. This may not relate to your zippers immediately, but allowing vendors like Temu to exploit our economy by undercutting it has negative effects, which you are supporting with your actions.
      - palata 1y ago
        > If you leave your personal gain aside for one moment, don’t you see how that just means you’ll throw 246 of them away because you don’t need them I didn't say I would get 250 of them, I said the price was 250x more expensive in the local store. > These manufacturers pay taxes and employ people. Would you buy a coke for 55$ if I told you "look, these manufacturers pay taxes and employ people"? Or do you have a notion of "this is too expensive for what it is"? > This may not relate to your zippers immediately, but allowing vendors like Temu to exploit our economy by undercutting it has negative effects, which you are supporting with your actions. Just like you didn't read properly that I was not actually ordering 250 zippers, you didn't read my first message properly. Let me write it again slightly differently: I do agree that it needs to be regulated. But on the other hand, sometimes it seems so extreme that it's difficult to believe that the local store is not abusing. At this price, I just can't afford the zipper.
- _Microft 1y ago
  How do you tell that you did not get any from a lot that was dyed/painted with a cheaper but toxic color?
  - palata 1y ago
    Are you saying that the local merchant tests it and that's why they sell it at 250x the price? I said 10$, but it depends on the length. So 60cm is maybe 10$, 70cm is 12$, 80cm is 13.50. So you would say that testing the 70cm variant of the zipper is worth 2$ more than testing the paint on the 60cm variant? My point is that at this price, if I don't get the zipper on Temu, I don't get it at all. I won't pay 10$ for a zipper of this quality.
    - throwawaylaptop 1y ago
      I've noticed a similar 'this profit margin seems almost vulgar' on the same store shelf. As you showed with slightly longer zippers.. I notice with car fob remote batteries. An 8 pack is $12 at the store. The same brand, a single will be $5. A 2pack is $7. And the 8pack $12. Do you really need to make $4 on selling me a single? I know shelf space is valuable, but the same store sells things for $1 too on another shelf so apparently <$1 profit shelf space is possible.
      - mook 1y ago
        Given how small the batteries are, they probably have similar costs for shipping and handling. So there's a cost to get _anything_ to the local store, plus the cost of the actual goods.
- Aeolun 1y ago
  Maybe the one in the local store wouldn’t need to be $10 if more people bought them there? Also, they need to charge for the risk of putting the crap on the shelf without testing it first.
zorton 1y ago
Was there a vote on what the correct drawstring length should be? How about a vote on the person who wrote those regulations specifying the length?
- mschuster91 1y ago
  We vote on the representatives, who in turn spend an awful lot of time talking to all sorts of interest groups - manufacturers, other parts of the economic chain, consumer and environmental protection organizations, lawyers, industry organizations, god knows what else - and in the end usually come up with decent regulations as a result. I agree that the results can be sometimes weird, sometimes annoying, and sometimes outright dumb. But I'll rather pay that price than not have USB-C, two year product warranties, no lead in kids' toys or access to clean and safe drinking water.
- lettuceconstant 1y ago
  By taking a look you'll find that regulations are commonly written by civil servants and various experts (which are typically not chosen by a vote) and then approved by people that you do get to choose by a vote. On both sides of the pond.
seydor 1y ago
Most chinese products pass EU standards, after all they want to sell to europe. These are rare exceptions.
- maxhille 1y ago
  Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Looking at the "CE" logo issue, we know chinese companies try to cheat their products around regulations.
kotaKat 1y ago
> unwilling (cough Apple and USB-C) to do the right thing on its own. There was, and still is, no reason that Apple should have been forced to adopt USB-C with the proliferation of Lightning on the market - a connector with significantly more lifetime and reliability than USB-C. If you want a device with USB-C, go pick an Android device that ships with USB-C. Forcing these regulations has just forced everyone to sell the same amorphous brick of glass and sand under the guise of "consumer choice". (And remember: It's okay when Google goes anti-competitive, but it's not okay when Apple does it! --Margrethe Vestager)
- raron 1y ago
  Apple was not forced to abandon the Lightning connector. If they would think that Lightning is a better product and keeping it would be positive thing for their customers, then they could still use it (beside a Type-C connector).
  - kotaKat 1y ago
    Except Apple shouldn't be forced to use a Type-C connector in the first place, and pandering to Vestager's terminally dry desert in her pants so she can get off to a USB-C port shouldn't be on Apple's priority list.
- _zoltan_ 1y ago
  forcing apple to do USB-C was a good move.

palata 1y ago

> they all push stuff into Europe that violates these standards and can be sold cheaper as a result. I understand that and I agree that it should be regulated. But on the other hand, I can order 50 zippers on Temu for 2$, and if I go to a local store they sell one for 10$. I bought both, and they are exactly the same. So one zipper on Temu costs 4 cents, versus 10$ in a local store. That's 250x more expensive. Doesn't seem reasonable.

mschuster91 1y ago
> I bought both, and they are exactly the same. They are not. With the one you buy at your local store, you get the two years warranty, and should the thing contain, say, lead paint you can hold the seller accountable. Good luck doing the same against Temu. In addition, you pay a markup at the physical store for stockkeeping. Yeah sure, I can order the small capacitor for some fried PLC adapter on Amazon. No doubt. But I'll need to wait about two days for shipping, whereas the local electronics store has it right now when I need it.
- palata 1y ago
  > They are not. With the one you buy at your local store, you get the two years warranty And with the Temu one I get 250 units for the same price. I don't know how often you break a zipper, but 250x in two years sounds like a lot :-). > should the thing contain, say, lead paint you can hold the seller accountable. I understand what you are saying, but honestly I doubt they check every 10cm of every zipper for traces of lead (or other). If there is ever an issue, maybe (?) they will recall them somehow, but I probably won't ever know (say I paid cash, they don't have a way to contact me at all, and with a credit card I'm not sure if they can / will find my contact ever). > But I'll need to wait about two days for shipping, whereas the local electronics store has it right now when I need it. Sure! But the fact is that I'm absolutely fine waiting 2 days if it costs me 250x less. Actually with Temu it's more a few weeks, I would think? Still worth it for zippers. If the zipper was sold for 1$ in the local store, that would be different. But 10$? At this point I just don't want the zipper at all. So in a way it's not really "Temu vs local store". If I don't get it on Temu, I don't get it at all.
  - 9dev 1y ago
    If you leave your personal gain aside for one moment, don’t you see how that just means you’ll throw 246 of them away because you don’t need them, minus the three replacements for the bad quality? Don’t you see how that cannot be positive, to have so much waste, instead of proper QA and manufacturers doing the right thing for fear of litigation? These manufacturers pay taxes and employ people. Both of these contribute to our wealth. Making it harder for local businesses to sustain themselves will lower or quality of life. This may not relate to your zippers immediately, but allowing vendors like Temu to exploit our economy by undercutting it has negative effects, which you are supporting with your actions.
    - palata 1y ago
      > If you leave your personal gain aside for one moment, don’t you see how that just means you’ll throw 246 of them away because you don’t need them I didn't say I would get 250 of them, I said the price was 250x more expensive in the local store. > These manufacturers pay taxes and employ people. Would you buy a coke for 55$ if I told you "look, these manufacturers pay taxes and employ people"? Or do you have a notion of "this is too expensive for what it is"? > This may not relate to your zippers immediately, but allowing vendors like Temu to exploit our economy by undercutting it has negative effects, which you are supporting with your actions. Just like you didn't read properly that I was not actually ordering 250 zippers, you didn't read my first message properly. Let me write it again slightly differently: I do agree that it needs to be regulated. But on the other hand, sometimes it seems so extreme that it's difficult to believe that the local store is not abusing. At this price, I just can't afford the zipper.
_Microft 1y ago
How do you tell that you did not get any from a lot that was dyed/painted with a cheaper but toxic color?
- palata 1y ago
  Are you saying that the local merchant tests it and that's why they sell it at 250x the price? I said 10$, but it depends on the length. So 60cm is maybe 10$, 70cm is 12$, 80cm is 13.50. So you would say that testing the 70cm variant of the zipper is worth 2$ more than testing the paint on the 60cm variant? My point is that at this price, if I don't get the zipper on Temu, I don't get it at all. I won't pay 10$ for a zipper of this quality.
  - throwawaylaptop 1y ago
    I've noticed a similar 'this profit margin seems almost vulgar' on the same store shelf. As you showed with slightly longer zippers.. I notice with car fob remote batteries. An 8 pack is $12 at the store. The same brand, a single will be $5. A 2pack is $7. And the 8pack $12. Do you really need to make $4 on selling me a single? I know shelf space is valuable, but the same store sells things for $1 too on another shelf so apparently <$1 profit shelf space is possible.
    - mook 1y ago
      Given how small the batteries are, they probably have similar costs for shipping and handling. So there's a cost to get _anything_ to the local store, plus the cost of the actual goods.
Aeolun 1y ago
Maybe the one in the local store wouldn’t need to be $10 if more people bought them there? Also, they need to charge for the risk of putting the crap on the shelf without testing it first.

zorton 1y ago

Was there a vote on what the correct drawstring length should be? How about a vote on the person who wrote those regulations specifying the length?

mschuster91 1y ago
We vote on the representatives, who in turn spend an awful lot of time talking to all sorts of interest groups - manufacturers, other parts of the economic chain, consumer and environmental protection organizations, lawyers, industry organizations, god knows what else - and in the end usually come up with decent regulations as a result. I agree that the results can be sometimes weird, sometimes annoying, and sometimes outright dumb. But I'll rather pay that price than not have USB-C, two year product warranties, no lead in kids' toys or access to clean and safe drinking water.
lettuceconstant 1y ago
By taking a look you'll find that regulations are commonly written by civil servants and various experts (which are typically not chosen by a vote) and then approved by people that you do get to choose by a vote. On both sides of the pond.

seydor 1y ago

Most chinese products pass EU standards, after all they want to sell to europe. These are rare exceptions.

maxhille 1y ago
Not sure how you came to that conclusion. Looking at the "CE" logo issue, we know chinese companies try to cheat their products around regulations.

kotaKat 1y ago

> unwilling (cough Apple and USB-C) to do the right thing on its own. There was, and still is, no reason that Apple should have been forced to adopt USB-C with the proliferation of Lightning on the market - a connector with significantly more lifetime and reliability than USB-C. If you want a device with USB-C, go pick an Android device that ships with USB-C. Forcing these regulations has just forced everyone to sell the same amorphous brick of glass and sand under the guise of "consumer choice". (And remember: It's okay when Google goes anti-competitive, but it's not okay when Apple does it! --Margrethe Vestager)

raron 1y ago
Apple was not forced to abandon the Lightning connector. If they would think that Lightning is a better product and keeping it would be positive thing for their customers, then they could still use it (beside a Type-C connector).
- kotaKat 1y ago
  Except Apple shouldn't be forced to use a Type-C connector in the first place, and pandering to Vestager's terminally dry desert in her pants so she can get off to a USB-C port shouldn't be on Apple's priority list.
_zoltan_ 1y ago
forcing apple to do USB-C was a good move.