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> A pilot where the participants know or suspect that the money will soon stop flowing won't capture the real-world effect of this decades-long experiment that

by Swizec 1y ago

> A pilot where the participants know or suspect that the money will soon stop flowing won't capture the real-world effect of this decades-long experiment that we call pensions. There is a big difference in getting a guaranteed income in your 20’s vs your 60’s. In your 20’s it unlocks taking big risks and swing for the fences. YC bets in this, for example. What can ambitious kids do when they don’t need to worry about money? But when you’ve been grinding for 40 years … yeah for sure most people stop working.

mulletbum 1y ago
I think Universal Healthcare does this too. I just turned 40 and I would be WAY more interested in jumping jobs if it existed. Instead I keep on because my wife is going back to school and such, so everything relies on me.
- hybrid_study 1y ago
  Boom!
- mgkimsal 1y ago
  > Instead I keep on because my wife is going back to school and such, so everything relies on me. This has been so apparent to me over the last 20 years. I've seen so many people who wanted to switch jobs - perhaps a move to other parts of the country for a new job - but are very tied to employer-provided insurance. People with family members with varying health issues often feel especially 'stuck' to particular jobs because of the 'good' insurance, perhaps tied to specific regional hospitals with specific networks of doctors and specialists. I've heard this from multiple colleagues over the years and it's so disheartening. We've got so much unlocked human potential, and we get tied to specific areas because of arbitrary self-imposed constraints. Self-imposed I mean on ourselves as a whole, not individually-imposed. So so so disheartening...
- chneu 1y ago
  This is by design. The USA pairing healthcare to your job was on purpose.
  - renata 1y ago
    Technically it was because businesses were banned from raising wages during WW2 but benefits were exempt.
    - overfeed 1y ago
      War bonds, rationing and other measures long since abandoned were introduced then too. How weird would it be if everyone were still limited to 8oz of sugar per month in 2025 due to the exigencies of WW2? It's no less weird when it comes to healthcare being linked to remuneration. Heck, there are better free market approaches not adopted by the US, since its usually horny for that sort of thing, right up until it's pro-labor I guess.
- msgodel 1y ago
  Healthcare wouldn't be nearly as much of the issue it is if it weren't for healthcare administration and the cap on MDs. The private vs public debate becomes way less interesting when the cost drops 90%. Getting rid of that problem should really be everyone's focus.
dolebirchwood 1y ago
> In your 20’s it unlocks taking big risks and swing for the fences. YC bets in this, for example. What can ambitious kids do when they don’t need to worry about money? That might be true for maybe 5-10% of 20-somethings. The rest will blow it.
- glasss 1y ago
  Do you have data to back this up?
  - dolebirchwood 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - pinkmuffinere 1y ago
      I agree with your viewpoint, but this response is dismissive and doesn’t sincerely engage in the discussion. It does a disservice to your argument.
      - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
        The answer to the question you asked is the article these comments are attached to.
        pinkmuffinere 1y ago
        Did you mean to reply to someone else? I didn’t ask a question on this topic
- Jedd 1y ago
  > That might be true for maybe 5-10% of 20-somethings. The rest will blow it. It feels like everyone that has an anti-UBI position has access to a lot of research that no one else can see - or they're just unwilling to read or accept the results of every study / bit of research actually done on the topic.
protocolture 1y ago
>In your 20’s it unlocks taking big risks and swing for the fences. In your 20s it might also unlock travel and adventure.
- anonzzzies 1y ago
  The current proposals and tests are not about that kind of money. It is in the word 'basic': you can buy food and and a small room, not 'travel and adventure'.
  - AStonesThrow 1y ago
    [dead]
  - protocolture 1y ago
    If you can buy food and a small room, you can buy food and petrol for your van. If you already own a bike, a biking holiday can now be your permanent lifestyle.
    - anonzzzies 1y ago
      Sure, those people exist, that is fine. Some people do that now and far beyond their 20s: just hitch/bike/van around and do the odd job for a few days and live off that the rest of the time. There are communities where I live who allow anyone to come in and clean and cook together so you can stay and eat for $0. That is without basic income so it will happen with too. Thats a tiny minority. Most will get bored, loney, fed up etc if they even 'dare' to start such a life.
      - protocolture 1y ago
        Ok, but thats "travel and adventure". Travel and adventure are demonstrably available to people who arent rich. "Tiny Minority" until you no longer need a job to maintain the lifestyle. A non zero amount of people will go from not traveling, to traveling. This is neither a criticism nor endorsement of UBI. Its just an observation.
cosmic_cheese 1y ago
> But when you’ve been grinding for 40 years … yeah for sure most people stop working. I’d like to emphasize “grinding” here. For many it’s a grind in the truest sense, involving decades of backbreaking physical work. For others it’s immense stress to keep a roof over their family’s head no matter what. By the time retirement rolls around practically everybody has been burned out to some degree but had to power through regardless simply because quitting wasn’t an option. Yeah, under conditions like that, people are indeed going to stop working the very second they’re no longer required to in order to survive. Things like UBI, 4-day work weeks, remote work, and fair compensation would all improve that situation measurably.
ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
Just anecdata. I stopped when I was 55 (didn't have a choice, actually). Fortunately, I had saved wisely, and lived frugally, so I was able to stop working (which was good, because no one wanted me, anyway). I actually get more done, every day (like, seven days a week), than I did when getting paid. ToMAYto, ToMAHto...
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
robocat 1y ago
> In your 20’s it unlocks taking big risks and swing for the fences. I think it is really common for retiree risk takers to swing for the fences in their 60's. Their time is freed up and often lump sums become available: retirees often feel they need to make money to live well in retirement. I'm sure you can think of cliched coffee shop entrepreneurs, restaurant owners, franchise purchasers and investment property purchasers. The reason it's such a well known cliche is because of how often they get burnt (due to poor understanding of risks) and many lose their homes. I really notice it because I'm nearer retirement than 20 (they're not my peers but my acquaintances span a wide range of age and money demographics).
MichaelRo 1y ago
>> There is a big difference in getting a guaranteed income in your 20’s vs your 60’s. No, it's the difference between getting a pension (a guaranteed income for the rest of your life) and a second job's salary without working it. Basically the "basic income" experiments create Reddit r/overemployed participants without even having to work the additional job.

by Swizec 1y ago

mulletbum 1y ago

I think Universal Healthcare does this too. I just turned 40 and I would be WAY more interested in jumping jobs if it existed. Instead I keep on because my wife is going back to school and such, so everything relies on me.

hybrid_study 1y ago
Boom!
mgkimsal 1y ago
> Instead I keep on because my wife is going back to school and such, so everything relies on me. This has been so apparent to me over the last 20 years. I've seen so many people who wanted to switch jobs - perhaps a move to other parts of the country for a new job - but are very tied to employer-provided insurance. People with family members with varying health issues often feel especially 'stuck' to particular jobs because of the 'good' insurance, perhaps tied to specific regional hospitals with specific networks of doctors and specialists. I've heard this from multiple colleagues over the years and it's so disheartening. We've got so much unlocked human potential, and we get tied to specific areas because of arbitrary self-imposed constraints. Self-imposed I mean on ourselves as a whole, not individually-imposed. So so so disheartening...
chneu 1y ago
This is by design. The USA pairing healthcare to your job was on purpose.
- renata 1y ago
  Technically it was because businesses were banned from raising wages during WW2 but benefits were exempt.
  - overfeed 1y ago
    War bonds, rationing and other measures long since abandoned were introduced then too. How weird would it be if everyone were still limited to 8oz of sugar per month in 2025 due to the exigencies of WW2? It's no less weird when it comes to healthcare being linked to remuneration. Heck, there are better free market approaches not adopted by the US, since its usually horny for that sort of thing, right up until it's pro-labor I guess.
msgodel 1y ago
Healthcare wouldn't be nearly as much of the issue it is if it weren't for healthcare administration and the cap on MDs. The private vs public debate becomes way less interesting when the cost drops 90%. Getting rid of that problem should really be everyone's focus.

dolebirchwood 1y ago

> In your 20’s it unlocks taking big risks and swing for the fences. YC bets in this, for example. What can ambitious kids do when they don’t need to worry about money? That might be true for maybe 5-10% of 20-somethings. The rest will blow it.

glasss 1y ago
Do you have data to back this up?
- dolebirchwood 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - pinkmuffinere 1y ago
    I agree with your viewpoint, but this response is dismissive and doesn’t sincerely engage in the discussion. It does a disservice to your argument.
    - AnthonyMouse 1y ago
      The answer to the question you asked is the article these comments are attached to.
      - pinkmuffinere 1y ago
        Did you mean to reply to someone else? I didn’t ask a question on this topic
Jedd 1y ago
> That might be true for maybe 5-10% of 20-somethings. The rest will blow it. It feels like everyone that has an anti-UBI position has access to a lot of research that no one else can see - or they're just unwilling to read or accept the results of every study / bit of research actually done on the topic.

protocolture 1y ago

>In your 20’s it unlocks taking big risks and swing for the fences. In your 20s it might also unlock travel and adventure.

anonzzzies 1y ago
The current proposals and tests are not about that kind of money. It is in the word 'basic': you can buy food and and a small room, not 'travel and adventure'.
- AStonesThrow 1y ago
  [dead]
- protocolture 1y ago
  If you can buy food and a small room, you can buy food and petrol for your van. If you already own a bike, a biking holiday can now be your permanent lifestyle.
  - anonzzzies 1y ago
    Sure, those people exist, that is fine. Some people do that now and far beyond their 20s: just hitch/bike/van around and do the odd job for a few days and live off that the rest of the time. There are communities where I live who allow anyone to come in and clean and cook together so you can stay and eat for $0. That is without basic income so it will happen with too. Thats a tiny minority. Most will get bored, loney, fed up etc if they even 'dare' to start such a life.
    - protocolture 1y ago
      Ok, but thats "travel and adventure". Travel and adventure are demonstrably available to people who arent rich. "Tiny Minority" until you no longer need a job to maintain the lifestyle. A non zero amount of people will go from not traveling, to traveling. This is neither a criticism nor endorsement of UBI. Its just an observation.

cosmic_cheese 1y ago

> But when you’ve been grinding for 40 years … yeah for sure most people stop working. I’d like to emphasize “grinding” here. For many it’s a grind in the truest sense, involving decades of backbreaking physical work. For others it’s immense stress to keep a roof over their family’s head no matter what. By the time retirement rolls around practically everybody has been burned out to some degree but had to power through regardless simply because quitting wasn’t an option. Yeah, under conditions like that, people are indeed going to stop working the very second they’re no longer required to in order to survive. Things like UBI, 4-day work weeks, remote work, and fair compensation would all improve that situation measurably.

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago

Just anecdata. I stopped when I was 55 (didn't have a choice, actually). Fortunately, I had saved wisely, and lived frugally, so I was able to stop working (which was good, because no one wanted me, anyway). I actually get more done, every day (like, seven days a week), than I did when getting paid. ToMAYto, ToMAHto...

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

robocat 1y ago

> In your 20’s it unlocks taking big risks and swing for the fences. I think it is really common for retiree risk takers to swing for the fences in their 60's. Their time is freed up and often lump sums become available: retirees often feel they need to make money to live well in retirement. I'm sure you can think of cliched coffee shop entrepreneurs, restaurant owners, franchise purchasers and investment property purchasers. The reason it's such a well known cliche is because of how often they get burnt (due to poor understanding of risks) and many lose their homes. I really notice it because I'm nearer retirement than 20 (they're not my peers but my acquaintances span a wide range of age and money demographics).

MichaelRo 1y ago

>> There is a big difference in getting a guaranteed income in your 20’s vs your 60’s. No, it's the difference between getting a pension (a guaranteed income for the rest of your life) and a second job's salary without working it. Basically the "basic income" experiments create Reddit r/overemployed participants without even having to work the additional job.