17 ms·

This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't

by akudha 1y ago

This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?" 3. local newspaper had published a photo of her and labeled her the “pregnant thief.” - of course, UK tabloids. Click baits and write whatever the fuck they want, no matter whose lives are destroyed 4. post office has said that it does not have the means to provide redress for that many people - so they have the means to falsely prosecute and destroy the lives of thousands of people, but they don't have the means to correct their blunders? This happened more than a decade ago. Citizens are expected to do everything on time (pay taxes, renew drivers license...) or get fined/jailed, but the government can sit on their butt for 10 YEARS and do nothing about a blunder they caused? What about Fujitsu? Why can't the government make Fujitsu pay for the destruction caused by their shitty software? Jeez. This is just fucking nuts

dennis_jeeves2 1y ago
>Failures at so many levels. Describes pretty much the vast majority of people. All groups/institutions/enterprises made of such people will follow a similar path. Point being - there is no hope.
PaulRobinson 1y ago
I suggest you keep an eye on what's being published in Private Eye and Computer Weekly if you have access to those where you are. They're holding feet to the fire on all these points. One thing I would say is that if somebody is convicted in the UK, it's acceptable legally and culturally to call them by the crime they committed. The problem is that in this case the Post Office had unique legal powers, and was being run by people who did not want to "harm the brand" by admitting they had made mistakes, so kept digging. There is also a fundamental flaw in how the courts - and the Post Office prosecutors - were instructed to think about the evidence in common law. Bizarrely, it was not (and may still not), be an acceptable defense to say that computer records are wrong. They are assumed correct in UK courts. IT systems were legally considered infallible, and if your evidence contradicts an IT systems evidence, you were considered a liar by the court, and a jury might be instructed accordingly. Yes, that's awful. Yes, it's ruined lives. But also, I think all involved have realised pointing fingers at one or two individuals to blame hasn't really helped fix things. Like an air accident, you have to have several things go wrong and compound errors to get into this amount of trouble, normally. There were systemic failing across procurement, implementation, governance, investigations, prosecutions, within the justice system and beyond. I already know people who have worked for Fujitsu in the UK are not exactly shouting about it. And yet, they're still getting awarded contracts before the compensation has been paid out...
- akudha 1y ago
  Lets ignore everything else for a second. Isn't it common sense, common decency to ask how can thousands of postal workers become thieves overnight? We're talking about postal workers for fuck's sake, not a bunch of mafia dudes. Is there some kind of perverse incentive for the prosecutors to send as many people to jail as possible, guilty or not? run by people who did not want to "harm the brand" Oh well, now their precious brand has been harmed, how exactly do they expect to gain the trust, respect of the people back? Maybe they think the public will forget and move on? These people suck...
  - pinoy420 1y ago
    [dead]
  - Akronymus 1y ago
    afaict, the assumption was they already were, and were just uncovered.
  - mxfh 1y ago
    Related case in the Netherlands: if you just think all dual citizens are up for no good as the pretext a lot of law abiding people's lifes will just get upended. If legislation, jurisdiction and law enforcement forget about basic principles and human rights in favour of looking productive, collateral damage is pretty much more or less expected. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scand...
    - worik 1y ago
      Means tested benefits, all sorts of problems There are incentives to cheat There is moral panic about "undeserving poor" Increase taxes and make services and benefits free, including a UBI. Increase and collect taxes.
  - nullc 1y ago
    > Isn't it common sense, common decency to ask how can thousands of postal workers become thieves overnight The whole privatized postoffice setup was a profoundly unattractive investment-- at least to those who thought of it on investment grounds (e.g. return on investment+costs)-- and so there was a presumption before the computer system went in that many must have been in it to steal. > Is there some kind of perverse incentive for the prosecutors One of the broken things here is that the postoffice themselves were able to criminally prosecute-- so the criminal cases lacked "have to deserve the state prosecutors time" protection.
whycome 1y ago
It's fucking nuts because it's worse than that too. Fujitsu falsely claimed that they couldn't remotely modify data. They used technical info to obfuscate things for the accused and the judges.
- Anthony-G 1y ago
  I haven’t followed this issue closely but would lying in court about their ability to remotely modify data not be perjury?
  - jordanb 1y ago
    Many people committed perjury. Many barristers advised their clients to perjure themselves. Many executives within the post office and at Fujitsu conspired to deceive the courts. Many prosecutors submitted evidence to the courts they knew to be fraudulent. The only people who received criminal charges were the sub postmasters.
s_dev 1y ago
>2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?" They genuinely thought that the new software was uncovering a lot of theft that previously went undetected. This actually spurred them on even further thinking that the software was a godsend. The sickening part is the people responsible won't ever see the inside of a prison cell despite sending many to prison for their failures.
- wat10000 1y ago
  Rationalization is a powerful force. People rarely come to objective beliefs based on evidence. They come to beliefs and then search for evidence. In law enforcement, people tend to decide on a suspect and then look for proof. Hence why you so often see prosecutors and police fighting to punish innocent people, sometimes even after they've been proven to be innocent.
  - akudha 1y ago
    In law enforcement, people tend to decide on a suspect and then look for proof. Yikes, such people shouldn't be in working in law enforcement then
    - flir 1y ago
      Everyone does it. You and me too. It's just how brains work. First the opinion, then the evidence to back up the opinion.
      - akudha 1y ago
        Maybe everyone does it at some level, but not everyone works in a job that has the potential to wreck other people's lives and freedoms. There should be a higher standard for doctors, prosecutors, cops, judges etc than someone writing a todo CRUD app or a cashier at a bodega. It is not too much to ask for prosecutors to be a bit more careful, bit more factual, understand the powers that come with their position and use it wisely. If they are not able to do that, they should pick some other profession which has lesser potential to cause damage than law enforcement. Also - now that the software has proven defective, are they doing to go after Fujitsu or those who tested/signed off on the software? Probably not, maybe they will find a scapegoat at best.
dagmx 1y ago
I really wish someone had the political capital to do something about the tabloids. They’re really a detriment to society.
- johnnyApplePRNG 1y ago
  Politicians love the tabloids. They distract from the real goings-on.
- arrowsmith 1y ago
  I don't like the tabloids either but what exactly do you propose we do? Are you sure it's a good idea to undermine the freedom of the press? A government with the power to censor the tabloids is also a government with the power to censor the news outlets that you do like. I'd be careful about opening that can of worms.
  - junon 1y ago
    When tabloids circumvent due process to commit slander and get away with it there should be penalties, yes.
    - arrowsmith 1y ago
      Defamation is already illegal. People sue each other for defamation all the time - in fact UK libel law is notoriously weighted in favour of the plaintiff. If these men were defamed they can sue the tabloids and they'll probably win. GP was saying the government should do something. What more can the government do?
      - rwmj 1y ago
        If they have a ton of money, which these postmasters do not.
  - jedimastert 1y ago
    Aren't defamation laws in the UK almost shockingly restrictive? How the hell are they able to operate?
rossant 1y ago
Read about this [1, 2]. This is not yet a well-known scandal, but I expect (and hope) it will surface in the coming years or decade. It is on an even bigger scale, not limited to a single country, and it has been going on not just for 10 years but for many decades. [1] https://cambridgeblog.org/2023/05/a-journey-into-the-shaken-baby-syndrome-abusive-head-trauma-controversy/ https://cambridgeblog.org/2023/05/a-journey-into-the-shaken-... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37650402 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37650402
- fn-mote 1y ago
  Incredible. Reading HN pays off again. Thank you for sharing. The link is to a book by a PhD neuroscientist investigation the scientific basis for shaken baby syndrome.
  - rossant 1y ago
    Yes, that's me.
    - DiabloD3 1y ago
      Wow, that is you.
- IshKebab 1y ago
  Wow that's crazy. Good work! I guess this is a less "compelling" scandal than Horizon because there isn't one or two entities that are responsible.
- insane_dreamer 1y ago
  Reminds me somewhat of the child sex abuse hysteria in the 80s/90s involving daycare centers and the many horrific accusations that people took at face value and without question, being (rightfully) concerned for the wellbeing of the children. It was finally understood that it was relatively easy to plant false memories in young children through suggestive questioning. People went to jail for years before their convictions were overturned, and the impact on society lives on. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/us/the-trial-that-unleashed-hysteria-over-child-abuse.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/us/the-trial-that-unleash...
TechDebtDevin 1y ago
fortunately, (most) governments will let you leave.
arp242 1y ago
> What about Fujitsu? Why can't the government make Fujitsu pay for the destruction caused by their shitty software? Because the software didn't cause it. Look, by all accounts the software was/is a piece of piss, but what made it such an egregious scandal is how the Post Office leadership dealt with things. There was really no good reason for that to happen. They just ignored reports of problems (proper reports written by auditors, not vague rumours). They lied to postmasters by saying that no one has problems (when, in fact, there were hundreds of people). Lots has been written about all of this and I won't repeat it all here. So I must object to the phrasing of "caused by their shitty software". Of course lots can be said about the failings of the software itself and Fujitsu also lied and covered their tracks so they are not entirely blameless. But they emphatically did not "cause" any of this: it was the Post Office leadership who primarily caused this mess. Lots of things go wrong in the world, lots of things are defective. What often matters the most is not so much the mistake or defect itself, but what the response to that is.
- gowld 1y ago
  It's not a crime when the government does it :-(
- amiga386 1y ago
  I'm going to have to pull you up on this detail, as you seem to care about the details. Fujitsu/ICL won the contract to develop and run Horizon. They got a commission on every EFTPOS sale. They paid for all the computers, all the network setup, all the staff training. They literally ran the helpline. If you were a sub-postmaster and had a problem with Horizon, you called Fujitsu. It was Fujitsu that then told you that the bug you found in Horizon wasn't a bug and nobody else was experiencing it, at exactly the same time their internal IT tickets had fully documented the bug and their staff were trying to patch up that bug before it happened to anyone else. Fujitsu also claimed, in many court cases, that they had no remote access to Horizon. But they did. They also let engineers use it, and push one-off code fixes, to "fix-up" known errors that had been made in ledgers on the computer in your Post Office, so there was no source of truth anywhere in the system. If courts had known this, almost every Post Office private prosecution would have been thrown in the bin for unreliable evidence. Instead, courts ran on the belief that computers were like calculators, and can be assumed to be reliable unless proven faulty. It was Fujitsu not volunteering this fact, and indeed barristers coaching Fujitsu expert witnesses on what to say and what not to reveal, ignoring procedural rules that the barristers knew had to be followed that say you have to reveal pertinent facts to the defence. Fujitsu were in it up to their necks along with the Post Office. They made material gains by denying bugs existed, denying they had remote access, falsely claiming their system was reliable, and having their staff perjure themselves in prosecutions brought by the Post Office. Without Fujitsu's complicity and mendacity, the Post Office might not have succeeded in prosecuting anyone - and of course, without the phantom losses caused by their broken software, they'd have no cases to prosecute.
EngineeringStuf 1y ago
I really do agree. I was a lead Technical Architect and authority on behalf of HM Treasury for a while, and I will tell you this: this is just the tip of the iceberg in government procurement. I've witnessed faulty systems in DVLA, DEFRA, DWP, Home Office, MOJ and Scottish Government. Systems that have directly resulted in suicide, false convictions, corruption and loss of money to the public purse. The problem with Horizon and Fujitsu is that in the end the government has to sign it off, and there will be someone who is the Accountable Officer (AO). More often than not, all parties (customer and supplier) become incredibly motivated to protect the AO because it protects profits, protects reputational damage and essentially builds a good news story around the whole thing. It's just elitism, wrapped up in cronyism, veiled in lies so that AOs can fail upwards into positions with suppliers. I've seen it too many times and I'm fed-up with it. Government is completely and utterly corrupt.
- nextos 1y ago
  Wow, have you considered leaking these stories somewhere?

by akudha 1y ago

dennis_jeeves2 1y ago

>Failures at so many levels. Describes pretty much the vast majority of people. All groups/institutions/enterprises made of such people will follow a similar path. Point being - there is no hope.

PaulRobinson 1y ago

I suggest you keep an eye on what's being published in Private Eye and Computer Weekly if you have access to those where you are. They're holding feet to the fire on all these points. One thing I would say is that if somebody is convicted in the UK, it's acceptable legally and culturally to call them by the crime they committed. The problem is that in this case the Post Office had unique legal powers, and was being run by people who did not want to "harm the brand" by admitting they had made mistakes, so kept digging. There is also a fundamental flaw in how the courts - and the Post Office prosecutors - were instructed to think about the evidence in common law. Bizarrely, it was not (and may still not), be an acceptable defense to say that computer records are wrong. They are assumed correct in UK courts. IT systems were legally considered infallible, and if your evidence contradicts an IT systems evidence, you were considered a liar by the court, and a jury might be instructed accordingly. Yes, that's awful. Yes, it's ruined lives. But also, I think all involved have realised pointing fingers at one or two individuals to blame hasn't really helped fix things. Like an air accident, you have to have several things go wrong and compound errors to get into this amount of trouble, normally. There were systemic failing across procurement, implementation, governance, investigations, prosecutions, within the justice system and beyond. I already know people who have worked for Fujitsu in the UK are not exactly shouting about it. And yet, they're still getting awarded contracts before the compensation has been paid out...

akudha 1y ago
Lets ignore everything else for a second. Isn't it common sense, common decency to ask how can thousands of postal workers become thieves overnight? We're talking about postal workers for fuck's sake, not a bunch of mafia dudes. Is there some kind of perverse incentive for the prosecutors to send as many people to jail as possible, guilty or not? run by people who did not want to "harm the brand" Oh well, now their precious brand has been harmed, how exactly do they expect to gain the trust, respect of the people back? Maybe they think the public will forget and move on? These people suck...
- pinoy420 1y ago
  [dead]
- Akronymus 1y ago
  afaict, the assumption was they already were, and were just uncovered.
- mxfh 1y ago
  Related case in the Netherlands: if you just think all dual citizens are up for no good as the pretext a lot of law abiding people's lifes will just get upended. If legislation, jurisdiction and law enforcement forget about basic principles and human rights in favour of looking productive, collateral damage is pretty much more or less expected. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_childcare_benefits_scand...
  - worik 1y ago
    Means tested benefits, all sorts of problems There are incentives to cheat There is moral panic about "undeserving poor" Increase taxes and make services and benefits free, including a UBI. Increase and collect taxes.
- nullc 1y ago
  > Isn't it common sense, common decency to ask how can thousands of postal workers become thieves overnight The whole privatized postoffice setup was a profoundly unattractive investment-- at least to those who thought of it on investment grounds (e.g. return on investment+costs)-- and so there was a presumption before the computer system went in that many must have been in it to steal. > Is there some kind of perverse incentive for the prosecutors One of the broken things here is that the postoffice themselves were able to criminally prosecute-- so the criminal cases lacked "have to deserve the state prosecutors time" protection.

whycome 1y ago

It's fucking nuts because it's worse than that too. Fujitsu falsely claimed that they couldn't remotely modify data. They used technical info to obfuscate things for the accused and the judges.

Anthony-G 1y ago
I haven’t followed this issue closely but would lying in court about their ability to remotely modify data not be perjury?
- jordanb 1y ago
  Many people committed perjury. Many barristers advised their clients to perjure themselves. Many executives within the post office and at Fujitsu conspired to deceive the courts. Many prosecutors submitted evidence to the courts they knew to be fraudulent. The only people who received criminal charges were the sub postmasters.

s_dev 1y ago

>2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?" They genuinely thought that the new software was uncovering a lot of theft that previously went undetected. This actually spurred them on even further thinking that the software was a godsend. The sickening part is the people responsible won't ever see the inside of a prison cell despite sending many to prison for their failures.

wat10000 1y ago
Rationalization is a powerful force. People rarely come to objective beliefs based on evidence. They come to beliefs and then search for evidence. In law enforcement, people tend to decide on a suspect and then look for proof. Hence why you so often see prosecutors and police fighting to punish innocent people, sometimes even after they've been proven to be innocent.
- akudha 1y ago
  In law enforcement, people tend to decide on a suspect and then look for proof. Yikes, such people shouldn't be in working in law enforcement then
  - flir 1y ago
    Everyone does it. You and me too. It's just how brains work. First the opinion, then the evidence to back up the opinion.
    - akudha 1y ago
      Maybe everyone does it at some level, but not everyone works in a job that has the potential to wreck other people's lives and freedoms. There should be a higher standard for doctors, prosecutors, cops, judges etc than someone writing a todo CRUD app or a cashier at a bodega. It is not too much to ask for prosecutors to be a bit more careful, bit more factual, understand the powers that come with their position and use it wisely. If they are not able to do that, they should pick some other profession which has lesser potential to cause damage than law enforcement. Also - now that the software has proven defective, are they doing to go after Fujitsu or those who tested/signed off on the software? Probably not, maybe they will find a scapegoat at best.

dagmx 1y ago

I really wish someone had the political capital to do something about the tabloids. They’re really a detriment to society.

johnnyApplePRNG 1y ago
Politicians love the tabloids. They distract from the real goings-on.
arrowsmith 1y ago
I don't like the tabloids either but what exactly do you propose we do? Are you sure it's a good idea to undermine the freedom of the press? A government with the power to censor the tabloids is also a government with the power to censor the news outlets that you do like. I'd be careful about opening that can of worms.
- junon 1y ago
  When tabloids circumvent due process to commit slander and get away with it there should be penalties, yes.
  - arrowsmith 1y ago
    Defamation is already illegal. People sue each other for defamation all the time - in fact UK libel law is notoriously weighted in favour of the plaintiff. If these men were defamed they can sue the tabloids and they'll probably win. GP was saying the government should do something. What more can the government do?
    - rwmj 1y ago
      If they have a ton of money, which these postmasters do not.
- jedimastert 1y ago
  Aren't defamation laws in the UK almost shockingly restrictive? How the hell are they able to operate?

rossant 1y ago

Read about this [1, 2]. This is not yet a well-known scandal, but I expect (and hope) it will surface in the coming years or decade. It is on an even bigger scale, not limited to a single country, and it has been going on not just for 10 years but for many decades. [1] https://cambridgeblog.org/2023/05/a-journey-into-the-shaken-baby-syndrome-abusive-head-trauma-controversy/ https://cambridgeblog.org/2023/05/a-journey-into-the-shaken-... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37650402 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37650402

fn-mote 1y ago
Incredible. Reading HN pays off again. Thank you for sharing. The link is to a book by a PhD neuroscientist investigation the scientific basis for shaken baby syndrome.
- rossant 1y ago
  Yes, that's me.
  - DiabloD3 1y ago
    Wow, that is you.
IshKebab 1y ago
Wow that's crazy. Good work! I guess this is a less "compelling" scandal than Horizon because there isn't one or two entities that are responsible.
insane_dreamer 1y ago
Reminds me somewhat of the child sex abuse hysteria in the 80s/90s involving daycare centers and the many horrific accusations that people took at face value and without question, being (rightfully) concerned for the wellbeing of the children. It was finally understood that it was relatively easy to plant false memories in young children through suggestive questioning. People went to jail for years before their convictions were overturned, and the impact on society lives on. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Day-care_sex-abuse_hysteria [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/us/the-trial-that-unleashed-hysteria-over-child-abuse.html https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/10/us/the-trial-that-unleash...

TechDebtDevin 1y ago

fortunately, (most) governments will let you leave.

arp242 1y ago

> What about Fujitsu? Why can't the government make Fujitsu pay for the destruction caused by their shitty software? Because the software didn't cause it. Look, by all accounts the software was/is a piece of piss, but what made it such an egregious scandal is how the Post Office leadership dealt with things. There was really no good reason for that to happen. They just ignored reports of problems (proper reports written by auditors, not vague rumours). They lied to postmasters by saying that no one has problems (when, in fact, there were hundreds of people). Lots has been written about all of this and I won't repeat it all here. So I must object to the phrasing of "caused by their shitty software". Of course lots can be said about the failings of the software itself and Fujitsu also lied and covered their tracks so they are not entirely blameless. But they emphatically did not "cause" any of this: it was the Post Office leadership who primarily caused this mess. Lots of things go wrong in the world, lots of things are defective. What often matters the most is not so much the mistake or defect itself, but what the response to that is.

gowld 1y ago
It's not a crime when the government does it :-(
amiga386 1y ago
I'm going to have to pull you up on this detail, as you seem to care about the details. Fujitsu/ICL won the contract to develop and run Horizon. They got a commission on every EFTPOS sale. They paid for all the computers, all the network setup, all the staff training. They literally ran the helpline. If you were a sub-postmaster and had a problem with Horizon, you called Fujitsu. It was Fujitsu that then told you that the bug you found in Horizon wasn't a bug and nobody else was experiencing it, at exactly the same time their internal IT tickets had fully documented the bug and their staff were trying to patch up that bug before it happened to anyone else. Fujitsu also claimed, in many court cases, that they had no remote access to Horizon. But they did. They also let engineers use it, and push one-off code fixes, to "fix-up" known errors that had been made in ledgers on the computer in your Post Office, so there was no source of truth anywhere in the system. If courts had known this, almost every Post Office private prosecution would have been thrown in the bin for unreliable evidence. Instead, courts ran on the belief that computers were like calculators, and can be assumed to be reliable unless proven faulty. It was Fujitsu not volunteering this fact, and indeed barristers coaching Fujitsu expert witnesses on what to say and what not to reveal, ignoring procedural rules that the barristers knew had to be followed that say you have to reveal pertinent facts to the defence. Fujitsu were in it up to their necks along with the Post Office. They made material gains by denying bugs existed, denying they had remote access, falsely claiming their system was reliable, and having their staff perjure themselves in prosecutions brought by the Post Office. Without Fujitsu's complicity and mendacity, the Post Office might not have succeeded in prosecuting anyone - and of course, without the phantom losses caused by their broken software, they'd have no cases to prosecute.

EngineeringStuf 1y ago

I really do agree. I was a lead Technical Architect and authority on behalf of HM Treasury for a while, and I will tell you this: this is just the tip of the iceberg in government procurement. I've witnessed faulty systems in DVLA, DEFRA, DWP, Home Office, MOJ and Scottish Government. Systems that have directly resulted in suicide, false convictions, corruption and loss of money to the public purse. The problem with Horizon and Fujitsu is that in the end the government has to sign it off, and there will be someone who is the Accountable Officer (AO). More often than not, all parties (customer and supplier) become incredibly motivated to protect the AO because it protects profits, protects reputational damage and essentially builds a good news story around the whole thing. It's just elitism, wrapped up in cronyism, veiled in lies so that AOs can fail upwards into positions with suppliers. I've seen it too many times and I'm fed-up with it. Government is completely and utterly corrupt.

nextos 1y ago
Wow, have you considered leaking these stories somewhere?