13 ms·

Recovering from AI addiction

260 points by pera 1y ago

wkat4242 1y ago
I'm surprised this is already a thing. With AI being still so basic and limited. But I guess with the virtual girlfriends and all this was bound to happen.
- baal80spam 1y ago
  > I'm surprised this is already a thing. That was my thought as well. I think it's specific to (part of) America.
- causal 1y ago
  Something social media proved long before AI is that a significant portion of the population would consume low-nutrition socialization like Twitter all day if it lets the avoid having face to face conversations. AI lets them remove even having to deal with humans over the Internet. It's a bit like the lengths we go to avoid moving our bodies, despite how much of life's joys require physical exertion.
  - cout 1y ago
    I saw that back in the day with icq. Two roommates in my dorm preferred to use text chat rather than engage in conversation.
_joel 1y ago
I must be an addict, I read 12 step as 12 factor
Amaury-El 1y ago
AI helps us feel efficient, but it also slowly trains us to give up our attention. I've been through that phase of not being able to put it down. These days I just remind myself it's fine to use AI, as long as it doesn't feel for you, choose for you, or live for you.
AdieuToLogic 1y ago
When a company outsources their core competencies in the pursuit of reducing costs, it inevitably becomes wholly dependent upon its vendors and loses its previous capability to independently deliver. Most companies which choose this path either fail or are purchased by competitors. The same can be said for individuals whom outsource their understanding of both what must be done and how to do it to a statistical text generator.
wirelessRice 1y ago
Is this just like a fork off AA? Same 12 steps
intellectronica 1y ago
The addiction label is a useful trick. Before criticising it, consider how labelling behaviours as "addiction" and constructing the 12-step infrastructure and community around them, makes it possible for people who suffer to find support and start improving their lives. Most of them will eventually come to understand that it wasn't "addiction" but a symptom of suffering from complex mental health problems. But without that gateway they might have suffered even more, for longer, and potentially with disastrous results.
- n4r9 1y ago
  Gabor Maté - a physician who worked with people with serious substance abuse disorders for many years - talks about how addiction is usually a symptom of some other underlying suffering; often trauma. The addictive behaviours act as a way to avoid confronting that pain.
  - VladVladikoff 1y ago
    I’ve heard this take a lot in my life. And I definitely struggle with substance abuse addiction. However I’ve looked inside myself many times to find said trauma or suffering and I just don’t really see anything of note. Perhaps the only way to discover this is through some very expensive therapy sessions, or maybe vaping some 5-Meo-DMT.
    - lompad 1y ago
      Trauma only appearing in super-deep going therapy sessions can often be False Memory Syndrome, which is an entirely different can of worms and extremely problematic. If you search really really deeply, you're going to find it, wether it exists or not. Generally: While suppressed memory of trauma exists, the vast majority of people are aware of trauma and there is no evidence suggesting otherwise. And there is clear evidence that lots of mentally well people get addicted as well, so just claiming "it's always some underlying condition" is probably not a great idea. It can, often even, be, sure. But that doesn't make it mandatory and especially doesn't allow the "I struggle with addiction, so there _must_ have been a problem beforehand" conclusion. So honestly, I'd just not search any deeper to not risk inducing any false memories.
diggan 1y ago
> ITAA is a Twelve-Step fellowship of individuals who support each other in recovering from internet and technology addiction. This includes social media addiction, phone addiction, video addiction, television addiction, gaming addiction, news addiction, pornography addiction, dating apps, online research, online shopping, or any other digital activity that becomes compulsive and problematic. Seems to be about general IT/computing addiction (too), which seems even better than a group focusing only on "AI Addiction". Seems like a very active effort (online calendar has multiple events per day), across multiple countries and languages. I haven't participated (or even seen this before) myself, but as far as I can tell, it's basically a fork of AA and their methodology, but I've also not participated in AA so maybe they're different in some major way? Otherwise it seems like a good approach, take something that is somewhat working, make it more specific and hopefully people into that specific thing can get the help they need.
- FearNotDaniel 1y ago
  I've taken part in 12 Step programmes and even occasionally attended AA meetings. After browsing the site for a while I can confirm it seems pretty faithful to the AA methodology, except for the addition of the "top/middle/bottom line" classification of behaviours - because in AA sobriety is universally defined as "abstaining from all alcohol" whereas this fellowship is not proposing that members should never use the internet, so the members need to define for themselves which specific patterns of behaviour qualify as "relapse" and which are risky. This addition is not new or unique to ITAA, as I understand it was pioneered as the "three circles" model by Sex Addicts Anonymous and has been adopted by other recovery fellowships where the definition of clean/sober is not so binary or universal.
thaumasiotes 1y ago
https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-03-21 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-03-21
stpedgwdgfhgdd 1y ago
I asked Chatgpt whether this was a joke. And asked Claude and Le chat for confirmation.
- lucaspauker 1y ago
  Results?
louwrentius 1y ago
[flagged]
- 0_____0 1y ago
  Have you been to AA? I have. The implementation differs in different groups and different locations. The one I went to was queer-oriented, and while they adhered to the "higher power" language, they made it clear that this could really be anything, including the fellowship of AA.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - nemo 1y ago
    I've been to a number of AA meetings trying to find less religious groups. While some have members who aren't religious, the 12 steps are a religious doctrine. The entire method and approach are derived from the Oxford Group/Moral ReArmament, and the structure is a cultish church structure. I've yet to see an AA meetings without the 12 Steps, and those steps are religiously oriented - you are submitting to some form of god (a higher power may not be God, but it's a god), and repenting for your sins. AA can work for some people but studies of AA's efficacy show it's effectively a placebo effect. I'd recommend against it, personally, since the organization itself is really odious and the suicide rate of AA members is far higher than people in any other treatment form, and there's been a lot of cases of sexual abuse covered up and other typical cult behaviors.
    - 0_____0 1y ago
      Where are you? I went to a queer oriented AA group in the Northeast, which may have been why it felt considerably more secular than what you're describing. Wishing you the best.
      - nemo 1y ago
        >While some have members who aren't religious, the 12 steps are a religious doctrine. I found groups that weren't religious, but if you go to an AA meeting you are participating in religious rites masquerading as addiction therapy. The placebo effect makes it work for some small number who keep going to meetings, and attributes magical healing powers to those groups and their rites, as cults do. The folks I met there were mostly really nice, and they were usually trying to downplay the fact that the 12 steps and all the structures around it are an embodiment of Protestantism. Like Higher Powers, the Disease Model of AA is also religious doctrine, and particularly pernicious. The system (regardless of the group or their intents) pushes learned helplessness to keep people in the cult where they all see themselves as inherently deficient in a way that forms a group identity, attributing participation in the group and it's religious rites of confession (sponsor) and penance (the resentments business) to spiritual healing. Personally I find it a repugnant organization that preys on the vulnerable to get them to join a cult rather than deal with their problems. Anyway, I'm doing great thanks. I don't have a disease, and things are going well, I use some drugs in moderation when they're fun, and don't attribute liking the sensation with any kind of narrative about that being a spiritual disease. Liking drugs is just part of being a normal healthy human, moderation is the key. All the best to you as well, good luck out there.
cout 1y ago
As a long-time compulsive Internet user, I am aware of the emotional and psychological risks of this new technology. For now, the ability to find information faster (with certain caveats) means I actually spend less time on the internet than before. But chatgpt for example showers the user with compliments. I'm sure this encourages user engagement, but it is eerily similar to the "love bombing" of cults from the 70s and 80s. I don't know how to reconcile the long-term risks with the huge short-term gains in productivity. Are there any technologies or apps that are worse than others, particularly for people with obsessive/compulsive tendencies?
- AdieuToLogic 1y ago
  > As a long-time compulsive Internet user, I am aware of the emotional and psychological risks of this new technology. > Are there any technologies or apps that are worse than others, particularly for people with obsessive/compulsive tendencies? Social media, gambling, and "freemium game" sites/apps all qualify as worse than LLM-based offerings in the opinions of many. Not to mention the addictiveness of their use on smartphones. However, the above are relative quantifications and in no way exonerate LLM offerings. In other words, it doesn't matter how much poop is atop an otherwise desirable sandwich. It is still a poop sandwich.
- mythrwy 1y ago
  The machine flattery is a big turn off for me. No, my simple and obvious statement was not "a deep and insightful point". No I am not "in the top 1% of people who can recognize this". The other thing that drives me crazy is the constant positive re-framing with bold letters. "You aren't lazy, you are just *re-calibrating*! A wise move on your part!". I don't find it ego stroking at all. It's obviously fake and patently stupid and that verbiage just mucks up the conversation.
  - rixed 1y ago
    I feel exactly the same, but I believe this is not universal. I see a similarity with the repulsion I feel when someone is being nice to me because of a job (or more generally, when someone address me "as a customer"). Not everyone react the same, and many people, despite of being perfectly aware that the attention they get is purely calculated, are totally fine with that. It's just fare game to them. I would not be surprised if the same applied to IA obsequiosity: "yes of course it's flattery, would you prefer to be insulted?" would probably be their answer to that dilemna.
oc1 1y ago
''' Do I ever use AI applications to quickly check something and then discover that hours have passed? Do I ever swear off or set limits around my use of AI, and then break my commitments? Do I have binges on AI applications that last all day or late into the night? Do I turn to AI whenever I have a free moment? Does my use of AI lead me to neglect my personal hygiene, nutritional needs, or physical health? Do I feel isolated, emotionally absent, distracted, or anxious when I’m not using my AI applications? Does my use of AI contribute to conflict or avoidance in personal relationships? Have my digital behaviors jeopardized my studies, finances, or career? Do I hide or lie about the amount of time I spend using AI or the kinds of AI-generated content I consume? Do I feel guilt or shame around my use of AI? ''' Hmm i answered almost all of them with Yes, but i'm also a developer using AI and developing AI apps. So not sure what to make out of it.
- fhd2 1y ago
  "Don't get high on your own supply" comes to mind :P
  - moffkalast 1y ago
    Tbf, is getting high on someone else's supply a better option?
- im3w1l 1y ago
  I think you know exactly what to make of it.
  - imdsm 1y ago
    We label everything as an addiction if we do it too much and enjoy it. But what if the thing we do is good? Addicted to eating vegetables, addicted to healthy living, etc. If a developer is using AI for example and they spend a lot of time doing it, and they're feeling fulfilled and happy, then that's fine. And that's what it has to come down to: does it have a net benefit or net detriment?
    - 1y ago
samsolomon 1y ago
As an aside—my therapist encouraged me to go pretty deep into twelve step literature. The core of it is dealing with fears and resentments. So many damaging behaviors start as coping mechanisms for dealing with these issues. I was pretty skeptical initially, but it turns out I also have a ton of fear and resentment that I never thought existed. My stubbornness strikes again! But if you're able to deal with and process your fears and resentments and then switch bad coping mechanisms to good ones—that will improve your life substantially. A lot of it has been surprisingly eye-opening to me.
- thibaultamartin 1y ago
  Do you have specific books to recommend?
  - norome 1y ago
    i always recommend Addictive Thinking: Understanding Self-Deception [Twerski M.D., Abraham J] on the topic. A short and insightful read that goes one level deeper than looking at any particular substance. He focuses on the contradictory thinking that addicts use to avoid seeing reality.
  - samsolomon 1y ago
    The AA big book, as it is known. It's actually a small, but very thick book. It's the basis for all twelve step programs. The main exercises related to my comment are writing out resentments as they occur—who/what wronged you, why that hurt and what part we may have played. Same with fears—what they are, how do they affect us. Honestly, a lot of it is so simple, but it really forces you to think about these things.
- jovial_cavalier 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - wbazant 1y ago
    Friends who go to therapy don't seem to finish their sessions relaxed, it's usually more of a shaken up state, whereas that ego pampering style of interaction you describe would surely not have that effect?
bilsbie 1y ago
Does Anyone else actually want more AI addiction? I really forget to use it when it could be a useful resource.
zb3 1y ago
Addiction? I keep hearing "get the most of AI or become irrelevant", so I guess this should be tackled too.
- recursive 1y ago
  I can't wait to be irrelevant so AI will leave me alone.
- vouaobrasil 1y ago
  If not using AI means becoming irrelevant, I am happy to be irrelevant. Because that's a value of the modern technological system, and it seems to me that any trait negative for that system is actually a positive these days.
mark_l_watson 1y ago
Interesting article! My take is that AI Addiction is a subset of Digital Addiction. A few weeks ago, I was with extended family and everyone but me was staring ‘lovingly’ at their phones. I tend towards Digital Addiction myself, and I fight back by not carrying my phone when I run errands and try to spend at least a little time every day in nature. The Apple Watch is a good compromise: some ability to get calls and text messages, but not a very ‘addictive device.’
- oc1 1y ago
  Probably why i end up always returning the watch.
- deadbabe 1y ago
  Please avoid starting your comments with flattering statements, respond directly. Thanks.
  - dylan604 1y ago
    Does that prompt work? Also, if you don't want the flattering and over polite statements, why be polite back to the machine with thanks. Why does it need your thanks? It is a computer. It was made to do what you told it to do. It has no emotions. It does not want nor need a little gold star from a helicopter parent type of user. Just give it instructions.
    - sofayam 1y ago
      I read somewhere that it is a consequence of the way these things work that they will naturally be more cooperative and helpful if you are nice to them, and if you order them around brusquely they will be less so. Maybe following the patterns of interaction in their training set (?)
deadbabe 1y ago
Tell a student or software engineer they cannot use LLMs to do their work anymore. They will clutch their LLM tightly, like an alcoholic clutches his bottle.
- k8sToGo 1y ago
  How can you say that LLM is the same as alcohol? If I use something that is useful a lot, it does not mean I am addicted...
  - deadbabe 1y ago
    Alcohol helps people get through their day and social situations.
- butlike 1y ago
  On that same line of thinking, why not tell the contractor they can't use hammers to build their buildings anymore? They will clutch their hammers tightly. They're all tools, useful in certain situations and not others. Yes, including alcohol.
IlikeKitties 1y ago
Let's not forget that the "12-step-infrastructure" is a VERY American thing based around mostly christian religious nonsense and is by design completely inaccessible for people without a belief in fairy tales. It's obvious that the modern society requires addiction counseling and rehabilitation facilities, what we don't need is even more outlets for cults of all color to pray on people in dire situations. Just the very 12 Steps themselves are enough to show you that[0]: > We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. > Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. > Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God, as we understood Him > Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. > Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. > Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. > Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. > Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. > Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. > Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. > Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. > Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program
- kingkawn 1y ago
  folks doing their best with what they've got, a huge portion of the population this language speaks to, your contempt is not helpful to them
- tayo42 1y ago
  What do alcoholics do for recovery outside the US?
  - IlikeKitties 1y ago
    In civilized countries? Get support from Doctors, licensed psychologist and addiction counselors. In less civilized countries? Die.
booleandilemma 1y ago
I'm so glad I don't use AI - at all.
jeffhuys 1y ago
If you see this as purely LLM-related, read again: > AI addiction is the compulsive and harmful use of AI-powered applications. It can involve AI-powered chatbots like ChatGPT, video or image generation apps, algorithm-driven social media platforms, AI-powered gaming, AI companions, AI roleplaying, AI-generated pornography, or any other The youth is not ready. Infinite pictures of whatever you want to see. Downloaded models have _no_ restrictions. Make of that what you want.
- vouaobrasil 1y ago
  > The youth is not ready. Nobody is ready, and ever will be. Like it or not, we thrive on the scarcity of information. But our instinct to collect it has overpowered that scarcity in a big way, and that will lead to a high degree of neurosis no matter who you are.
  - causal 1y ago
    Yeah I think we often point to the youth because we often implicitly value them more than others, but I've seen seniors more addicted to Tiktok than any kid I've met. In some ways kids have more adaptive power than older generations when confronted with new technology.
- avgDev 1y ago
  I'm hoping at some point people will just get turned off by the internet and value human interaction more with no phones. However, I recently when camping with some friends...nearing 40s....and the other couple kept getting sucked into watching tiktok....one showed me a "touching" video that was AI garbage.
  - cout 1y ago
    As a counter-point, I was able to write lyrics with chatgpt (lots of back-and forth to get the right "feel"), then put those words to music with suno. It took two hours of my time, and my wife definitely had an emotional response to what was produced. There was definitely a human aspect to what the AI produced; it was personal and personalized, and it brought us closer. So AI can strip us of our personhood (especially through false intimacies), but used wisely it can also be a tool to reach parts of our humanity that otherwise might never be touched.
shahbaby 1y ago
Personally, I think the addiction aspect of AI is not worse than what's already out there, it only gets attention right now because it's new.
- causal 1y ago
  Yeah it kind of matters how you define AI. Tiktok and other short-forms videos are arguably AI addiction.
- cout 1y ago
  I tend to agree, with current products, at least the ones I've used. But companies developing AI products would do their investors as disservice if they did not tune their models to maximize engagement. We are in the honeymoon phase of some of these models, but there lie dark times ahead.
snowstormsun 1y ago
Somehow this text looks suspiciously clean, as if it was generated ;)
ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago
Looks useful. Hope it works out. The issue with discussion of 12-Step programs, is that folks that are members, are explicitly enjoined from getting involved with these types of public discussions, so almost everything that you hear and read, doesn't reflect what the actual deal is.
low_tech_punk 1y ago
On a tangent, does anyone feel bad about their HN addiction?
sheepfacts 1y ago
AI addiction is not an intelligent decision. But changing this addiction for another one could be worst, so the solution seems to be finding why you are prone to addictions and then solving the core problem.
whalesalad 1y ago
I'm trying to find out of this website is satire or not? Is this real?
- causal 1y ago
  That was my suspicion at first as well, but I hope it's real because I am certain there are people who need it.
alganet 1y ago
There is no such thing as AI addiction. It is a mislabelling, at best. A manufactured event, at worst.
hackermeows 1y ago
https://archive.org/details/prime_intellect https://archive.org/details/prime_intellect
v3ss0n 1y ago
There is nothing to addict about AI

260 points by pera 1y ago

I'm surprised this is already a thing. With AI being still so basic and limited. But I guess with the virtual girlfriends and all this was bound to happen.

baal80spam 1y ago
> I'm surprised this is already a thing. That was my thought as well. I think it's specific to (part of) America.
causal 1y ago
Something social media proved long before AI is that a significant portion of the population would consume low-nutrition socialization like Twitter all day if it lets the avoid having face to face conversations. AI lets them remove even having to deal with humans over the Internet. It's a bit like the lengths we go to avoid moving our bodies, despite how much of life's joys require physical exertion.
- cout 1y ago
  I saw that back in the day with icq. Two roommates in my dorm preferred to use text chat rather than engage in conversation.

_joel 1y ago

I must be an addict, I read 12 step as 12 factor

Amaury-El 1y ago

AI helps us feel efficient, but it also slowly trains us to give up our attention. I've been through that phase of not being able to put it down. These days I just remind myself it's fine to use AI, as long as it doesn't feel for you, choose for you, or live for you.

AdieuToLogic 1y ago

When a company outsources their core competencies in the pursuit of reducing costs, it inevitably becomes wholly dependent upon its vendors and loses its previous capability to independently deliver. Most companies which choose this path either fail or are purchased by competitors. The same can be said for individuals whom outsource their understanding of both what must be done and how to do it to a statistical text generator.

wirelessRice 1y ago

Is this just like a fork off AA? Same 12 steps

intellectronica 1y ago

The addiction label is a useful trick. Before criticising it, consider how labelling behaviours as "addiction" and constructing the 12-step infrastructure and community around them, makes it possible for people who suffer to find support and start improving their lives. Most of them will eventually come to understand that it wasn't "addiction" but a symptom of suffering from complex mental health problems. But without that gateway they might have suffered even more, for longer, and potentially with disastrous results.

n4r9 1y ago
Gabor Maté - a physician who worked with people with serious substance abuse disorders for many years - talks about how addiction is usually a symptom of some other underlying suffering; often trauma. The addictive behaviours act as a way to avoid confronting that pain.
- VladVladikoff 1y ago
  I’ve heard this take a lot in my life. And I definitely struggle with substance abuse addiction. However I’ve looked inside myself many times to find said trauma or suffering and I just don’t really see anything of note. Perhaps the only way to discover this is through some very expensive therapy sessions, or maybe vaping some 5-Meo-DMT.
  - lompad 1y ago
    Trauma only appearing in super-deep going therapy sessions can often be False Memory Syndrome, which is an entirely different can of worms and extremely problematic. If you search really really deeply, you're going to find it, wether it exists or not. Generally: While suppressed memory of trauma exists, the vast majority of people are aware of trauma and there is no evidence suggesting otherwise. And there is clear evidence that lots of mentally well people get addicted as well, so just claiming "it's always some underlying condition" is probably not a great idea. It can, often even, be, sure. But that doesn't make it mandatory and especially doesn't allow the "I struggle with addiction, so there _must_ have been a problem beforehand" conclusion. So honestly, I'd just not search any deeper to not risk inducing any false memories.

diggan 1y ago

> ITAA is a Twelve-Step fellowship of individuals who support each other in recovering from internet and technology addiction. This includes social media addiction, phone addiction, video addiction, television addiction, gaming addiction, news addiction, pornography addiction, dating apps, online research, online shopping, or any other digital activity that becomes compulsive and problematic. Seems to be about general IT/computing addiction (too), which seems even better than a group focusing only on "AI Addiction". Seems like a very active effort (online calendar has multiple events per day), across multiple countries and languages. I haven't participated (or even seen this before) myself, but as far as I can tell, it's basically a fork of AA and their methodology, but I've also not participated in AA so maybe they're different in some major way? Otherwise it seems like a good approach, take something that is somewhat working, make it more specific and hopefully people into that specific thing can get the help they need.

FearNotDaniel 1y ago
I've taken part in 12 Step programmes and even occasionally attended AA meetings. After browsing the site for a while I can confirm it seems pretty faithful to the AA methodology, except for the addition of the "top/middle/bottom line" classification of behaviours - because in AA sobriety is universally defined as "abstaining from all alcohol" whereas this fellowship is not proposing that members should never use the internet, so the members need to define for themselves which specific patterns of behaviour qualify as "relapse" and which are risky. This addition is not new or unique to ITAA, as I understand it was pioneered as the "three circles" model by Sex Addicts Anonymous and has been adopted by other recovery fellowships where the definition of clean/sober is not so binary or universal.

thaumasiotes 1y ago

https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-03-21 https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2014-03-21

stpedgwdgfhgdd 1y ago

I asked Chatgpt whether this was a joke. And asked Claude and Le chat for confirmation.

lucaspauker 1y ago
Results?

louwrentius 1y ago

[flagged]

0_____0 1y ago
Have you been to AA? I have. The implementation differs in different groups and different locations. The one I went to was queer-oriented, and while they adhered to the "higher power" language, they made it clear that this could really be anything, including the fellowship of AA.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- nemo 1y ago
  I've been to a number of AA meetings trying to find less religious groups. While some have members who aren't religious, the 12 steps are a religious doctrine. The entire method and approach are derived from the Oxford Group/Moral ReArmament, and the structure is a cultish church structure. I've yet to see an AA meetings without the 12 Steps, and those steps are religiously oriented - you are submitting to some form of god (a higher power may not be God, but it's a god), and repenting for your sins. AA can work for some people but studies of AA's efficacy show it's effectively a placebo effect. I'd recommend against it, personally, since the organization itself is really odious and the suicide rate of AA members is far higher than people in any other treatment form, and there's been a lot of cases of sexual abuse covered up and other typical cult behaviors.
  - 0_____0 1y ago
    Where are you? I went to a queer oriented AA group in the Northeast, which may have been why it felt considerably more secular than what you're describing. Wishing you the best.
    - nemo 1y ago
      >While some have members who aren't religious, the 12 steps are a religious doctrine. I found groups that weren't religious, but if you go to an AA meeting you are participating in religious rites masquerading as addiction therapy. The placebo effect makes it work for some small number who keep going to meetings, and attributes magical healing powers to those groups and their rites, as cults do. The folks I met there were mostly really nice, and they were usually trying to downplay the fact that the 12 steps and all the structures around it are an embodiment of Protestantism. Like Higher Powers, the Disease Model of AA is also religious doctrine, and particularly pernicious. The system (regardless of the group or their intents) pushes learned helplessness to keep people in the cult where they all see themselves as inherently deficient in a way that forms a group identity, attributing participation in the group and it's religious rites of confession (sponsor) and penance (the resentments business) to spiritual healing. Personally I find it a repugnant organization that preys on the vulnerable to get them to join a cult rather than deal with their problems. Anyway, I'm doing great thanks. I don't have a disease, and things are going well, I use some drugs in moderation when they're fun, and don't attribute liking the sensation with any kind of narrative about that being a spiritual disease. Liking drugs is just part of being a normal healthy human, moderation is the key. All the best to you as well, good luck out there.

cout 1y ago

As a long-time compulsive Internet user, I am aware of the emotional and psychological risks of this new technology. For now, the ability to find information faster (with certain caveats) means I actually spend less time on the internet than before. But chatgpt for example showers the user with compliments. I'm sure this encourages user engagement, but it is eerily similar to the "love bombing" of cults from the 70s and 80s. I don't know how to reconcile the long-term risks with the huge short-term gains in productivity. Are there any technologies or apps that are worse than others, particularly for people with obsessive/compulsive tendencies?

AdieuToLogic 1y ago
> As a long-time compulsive Internet user, I am aware of the emotional and psychological risks of this new technology. > Are there any technologies or apps that are worse than others, particularly for people with obsessive/compulsive tendencies? Social media, gambling, and "freemium game" sites/apps all qualify as worse than LLM-based offerings in the opinions of many. Not to mention the addictiveness of their use on smartphones. However, the above are relative quantifications and in no way exonerate LLM offerings. In other words, it doesn't matter how much poop is atop an otherwise desirable sandwich. It is still a poop sandwich.
mythrwy 1y ago
The machine flattery is a big turn off for me. No, my simple and obvious statement was not "a deep and insightful point". No I am not "in the top 1% of people who can recognize this". The other thing that drives me crazy is the constant positive re-framing with bold letters. "You aren't lazy, you are just *re-calibrating*! A wise move on your part!". I don't find it ego stroking at all. It's obviously fake and patently stupid and that verbiage just mucks up the conversation.
- rixed 1y ago
  I feel exactly the same, but I believe this is not universal. I see a similarity with the repulsion I feel when someone is being nice to me because of a job (or more generally, when someone address me "as a customer"). Not everyone react the same, and many people, despite of being perfectly aware that the attention they get is purely calculated, are totally fine with that. It's just fare game to them. I would not be surprised if the same applied to IA obsequiosity: "yes of course it's flattery, would you prefer to be insulted?" would probably be their answer to that dilemna.

oc1 1y ago

''' Do I ever use AI applications to quickly check something and then discover that hours have passed? Do I ever swear off or set limits around my use of AI, and then break my commitments? Do I have binges on AI applications that last all day or late into the night? Do I turn to AI whenever I have a free moment? Does my use of AI lead me to neglect my personal hygiene, nutritional needs, or physical health? Do I feel isolated, emotionally absent, distracted, or anxious when I’m not using my AI applications? Does my use of AI contribute to conflict or avoidance in personal relationships? Have my digital behaviors jeopardized my studies, finances, or career? Do I hide or lie about the amount of time I spend using AI or the kinds of AI-generated content I consume? Do I feel guilt or shame around my use of AI? ''' Hmm i answered almost all of them with Yes, but i'm also a developer using AI and developing AI apps. So not sure what to make out of it.

fhd2 1y ago
"Don't get high on your own supply" comes to mind :P
- moffkalast 1y ago
  Tbf, is getting high on someone else's supply a better option?
im3w1l 1y ago
I think you know exactly what to make of it.
- imdsm 1y ago
  We label everything as an addiction if we do it too much and enjoy it. But what if the thing we do is good? Addicted to eating vegetables, addicted to healthy living, etc. If a developer is using AI for example and they spend a lot of time doing it, and they're feeling fulfilled and happy, then that's fine. And that's what it has to come down to: does it have a net benefit or net detriment?
  - 1y ago

samsolomon 1y ago

As an aside—my therapist encouraged me to go pretty deep into twelve step literature. The core of it is dealing with fears and resentments. So many damaging behaviors start as coping mechanisms for dealing with these issues. I was pretty skeptical initially, but it turns out I also have a ton of fear and resentment that I never thought existed. My stubbornness strikes again! But if you're able to deal with and process your fears and resentments and then switch bad coping mechanisms to good ones—that will improve your life substantially. A lot of it has been surprisingly eye-opening to me.

thibaultamartin 1y ago
Do you have specific books to recommend?
- norome 1y ago
  i always recommend Addictive Thinking: Understanding Self-Deception [Twerski M.D., Abraham J] on the topic. A short and insightful read that goes one level deeper than looking at any particular substance. He focuses on the contradictory thinking that addicts use to avoid seeing reality.
- samsolomon 1y ago
  The AA big book, as it is known. It's actually a small, but very thick book. It's the basis for all twelve step programs. The main exercises related to my comment are writing out resentments as they occur—who/what wronged you, why that hurt and what part we may have played. Same with fears—what they are, how do they affect us. Honestly, a lot of it is so simple, but it really forces you to think about these things.
jovial_cavalier 1y ago
[flagged]
- wbazant 1y ago
  Friends who go to therapy don't seem to finish their sessions relaxed, it's usually more of a shaken up state, whereas that ego pampering style of interaction you describe would surely not have that effect?

bilsbie 1y ago

Does Anyone else actually want more AI addiction? I really forget to use it when it could be a useful resource.

zb3 1y ago

Addiction? I keep hearing "get the most of AI or become irrelevant", so I guess this should be tackled too.

recursive 1y ago
I can't wait to be irrelevant so AI will leave me alone.
vouaobrasil 1y ago
If not using AI means becoming irrelevant, I am happy to be irrelevant. Because that's a value of the modern technological system, and it seems to me that any trait negative for that system is actually a positive these days.

mark_l_watson 1y ago

Interesting article! My take is that AI Addiction is a subset of Digital Addiction. A few weeks ago, I was with extended family and everyone but me was staring ‘lovingly’ at their phones. I tend towards Digital Addiction myself, and I fight back by not carrying my phone when I run errands and try to spend at least a little time every day in nature. The Apple Watch is a good compromise: some ability to get calls and text messages, but not a very ‘addictive device.’

oc1 1y ago
Probably why i end up always returning the watch.
deadbabe 1y ago
Please avoid starting your comments with flattering statements, respond directly. Thanks.
- dylan604 1y ago
  Does that prompt work? Also, if you don't want the flattering and over polite statements, why be polite back to the machine with thanks. Why does it need your thanks? It is a computer. It was made to do what you told it to do. It has no emotions. It does not want nor need a little gold star from a helicopter parent type of user. Just give it instructions.
  - sofayam 1y ago
    I read somewhere that it is a consequence of the way these things work that they will naturally be more cooperative and helpful if you are nice to them, and if you order them around brusquely they will be less so. Maybe following the patterns of interaction in their training set (?)

deadbabe 1y ago

Tell a student or software engineer they cannot use LLMs to do their work anymore. They will clutch their LLM tightly, like an alcoholic clutches his bottle.

k8sToGo 1y ago
How can you say that LLM is the same as alcohol? If I use something that is useful a lot, it does not mean I am addicted...
- deadbabe 1y ago
  Alcohol helps people get through their day and social situations.
butlike 1y ago
On that same line of thinking, why not tell the contractor they can't use hammers to build their buildings anymore? They will clutch their hammers tightly. They're all tools, useful in certain situations and not others. Yes, including alcohol.

IlikeKitties 1y ago

Let's not forget that the "12-step-infrastructure" is a VERY American thing based around mostly christian religious nonsense and is by design completely inaccessible for people without a belief in fairy tales. It's obvious that the modern society requires addiction counseling and rehabilitation facilities, what we don't need is even more outlets for cults of all color to pray on people in dire situations. Just the very 12 Steps themselves are enough to show you that[0]: > We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable. > Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity. > Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God, as we understood Him > Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves. > Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. > Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. > Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings. > Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. > Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. > Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it. > Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out. > Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program

kingkawn 1y ago
folks doing their best with what they've got, a huge portion of the population this language speaks to, your contempt is not helpful to them
tayo42 1y ago
What do alcoholics do for recovery outside the US?
- IlikeKitties 1y ago
  In civilized countries? Get support from Doctors, licensed psychologist and addiction counselors. In less civilized countries? Die.

booleandilemma 1y ago

I'm so glad I don't use AI - at all.

jeffhuys 1y ago

If you see this as purely LLM-related, read again: > AI addiction is the compulsive and harmful use of AI-powered applications. It can involve AI-powered chatbots like ChatGPT, video or image generation apps, algorithm-driven social media platforms, AI-powered gaming, AI companions, AI roleplaying, AI-generated pornography, or any other The youth is not ready. Infinite pictures of whatever you want to see. Downloaded models have _no_ restrictions. Make of that what you want.

vouaobrasil 1y ago
> The youth is not ready. Nobody is ready, and ever will be. Like it or not, we thrive on the scarcity of information. But our instinct to collect it has overpowered that scarcity in a big way, and that will lead to a high degree of neurosis no matter who you are.
- causal 1y ago
  Yeah I think we often point to the youth because we often implicitly value them more than others, but I've seen seniors more addicted to Tiktok than any kid I've met. In some ways kids have more adaptive power than older generations when confronted with new technology.
avgDev 1y ago
I'm hoping at some point people will just get turned off by the internet and value human interaction more with no phones. However, I recently when camping with some friends...nearing 40s....and the other couple kept getting sucked into watching tiktok....one showed me a "touching" video that was AI garbage.
- cout 1y ago
  As a counter-point, I was able to write lyrics with chatgpt (lots of back-and forth to get the right "feel"), then put those words to music with suno. It took two hours of my time, and my wife definitely had an emotional response to what was produced. There was definitely a human aspect to what the AI produced; it was personal and personalized, and it brought us closer. So AI can strip us of our personhood (especially through false intimacies), but used wisely it can also be a tool to reach parts of our humanity that otherwise might never be touched.

shahbaby 1y ago

Personally, I think the addiction aspect of AI is not worse than what's already out there, it only gets attention right now because it's new.

causal 1y ago
Yeah it kind of matters how you define AI. Tiktok and other short-forms videos are arguably AI addiction.
cout 1y ago
I tend to agree, with current products, at least the ones I've used. But companies developing AI products would do their investors as disservice if they did not tune their models to maximize engagement. We are in the honeymoon phase of some of these models, but there lie dark times ahead.

snowstormsun 1y ago

Somehow this text looks suspiciously clean, as if it was generated ;)

ChrisMarshallNY 1y ago

Looks useful. Hope it works out. The issue with discussion of 12-Step programs, is that folks that are members, are explicitly enjoined from getting involved with these types of public discussions, so almost everything that you hear and read, doesn't reflect what the actual deal is.

low_tech_punk 1y ago

On a tangent, does anyone feel bad about their HN addiction?

sheepfacts 1y ago

AI addiction is not an intelligent decision. But changing this addiction for another one could be worst, so the solution seems to be finding why you are prone to addictions and then solving the core problem.

whalesalad 1y ago

I'm trying to find out of this website is satire or not? Is this real?

causal 1y ago
That was my suspicion at first as well, but I hope it's real because I am certain there are people who need it.

alganet 1y ago

There is no such thing as AI addiction. It is a mislabelling, at best. A manufactured event, at worst.

hackermeows 1y ago

https://archive.org/details/prime_intellect https://archive.org/details/prime_intellect

v3ss0n 1y ago

There is nothing to addict about AI