6 ms·

Is there work going on with regards to robots in filthy environments, because these guys look like they're about to get tangled up in a hairy fatberg. I'm deal

Is there work going on with regards to robots in filthy environments, because these guys look like they're about to get tangled up in a hairy fatberg. I'm dealing with a clogged and nasty kitchen sink right now, and man, and these guys seem so happy to be in their laboratory test plumbing :)

cinntaile 1y ago
Prevention is easier. I would suggest you stop pouring oil and fat into your kitchen sink. These are research prototype robots, they're obviously not ready for the real world yet.
- the__alchemist 1y ago
  Idealist perspective
- evrimoztamur 1y ago
  Prevention is not the cure to the tragedy of the commons, we always need to be able to react. I don't pour oil down my drain, but the rest of the building does, which is how my six-meter wire won't do jack. A laboratory environment which is devoid of any resemblance to the real world will yield you different results compared to had you designed and built first for the environments you will encounter, would you agree? And these results could have capabilities not transferrable between different environments. I try to raise these questions in good faith: For example, are wheels the way to go at all for filthy pipe environments with many sticky and tangly hazards, or do we perhaps have to explore more snake/worm form factors? If we design for the clean environments, all the magical "cost savings for infrastructure restoration" accounting you can do will never materialize.
  - adrian_b 1y ago
    You are right, in the filthiest environments nothing else can be as performant as a worm/snake-like robot, even if such robots are inferior to those with wheels or rotary propellers in nice tidy environments. Moreover, instead of making a robot with arms, which are useful for work, but which are an impediment for moving in a filthy environment, it is better to send multiple vermiform robots, which are designed such as after reaching their destination they are able to cooperate in such a way as to act like a robot with multiple arms (i.e. they should be able to attach to anything in the environment or to another robot with both the anterior end and the posterior end, like leeches).
    - Bluestein 1y ago
      This an 'em newfangled "flexible" (ie. "banana") robots are really interesting ...
- MangoToupe 1y ago
  Given the rate I see people openly advocating for disposal of oil and fat down the sink as a response to rises in rent, good luck with prevention.
idiotsecant 1y ago
They've had pipeline 'pigs' for quite a while that at first we're just solid plugs separating product but have gotten to be fancier and fancier. I think a drain robot would be like that.
- dardeaup 1y ago
  I know that the pipeline pigs existed at least as far back as the early 90s (maybe even long before then).
  - EvanAnderson 1y ago
    Pipelines are cool. I don't have any direct references to give you, but you can search-engine for some interesting stuff. I did work for a petroleum distributor years ago and got to talk people w/ pipeline experience. An interesting anecdote I can relate is learning abut "transmix", AKA "slop". I worked on a logistics planning app (a really, really fun mix of traveling salesman and bin packing). I saw an entry for "slop" in the pricing feed from an exchange. This caught my eye and led me to talk to one of the "pipeline guys" about what "slop" might be (spoiler - it's a mix of pipeline products that happens when the product in the pipeline is changed) and why one might want to buy "slop".
bob1029 1y ago
I was observing an army of 20-25 men struggle to resolve a broken main the other day. They had to bring out a gigantic vac truck to pull the water out of the work pit fast enough to get back in there. If you offered them the use of your robot, you would probably be at risk of bodily harm.
- jstanley 1y ago
  Why?
  - anton-c 1y ago
    I'm struggling to follow that too. Maybe because they're all getting paid?
- paddy_m 1y ago
  The giant vac truck generally is for safe digging around other unknown utilities. Sometimes this is combined with a water jet that loosens soil, and the vac sucks up the soil and water. If they wanted to just drain an excavation, they would use a regular trash pump (capable of handling solids/sand) and run the discharge hose to a nearby stormdrain.
- paddy_m 1y ago
  Also, fun fact about Boston (MA?) construction laws. Per block, a crew is only allowed two steel plates... In the past year, the gas line and water main on my street has been replaced. Which has resulted in 6 excavations of the street at excruciatingly slow and loud pace with the vac truck. They excavate once to transfer each finger connection (to the houses) and attach the feeder to a temporary pipe, refilling their progress each day. Once a segment (about a city block or two) been transferred to the temporary line, they excavate again to remove the old line, refilling each day. Finally they lay the new line and connect the finger lines to it. If you can only cover two steel plates worth of trench overnight, there isn't a chance for the gas team to coordinate with the water team. With better laws this would have taken a 1/3rd of the excavation, possibly a 1/6th of the excavation. Since excavation and refilling were most of the work in any day, this should also have led to the same cost decrease. I don't know the exact law or regulation, but I have heard about it from multiple sources, and do intend to being it up with city council.
lumost 1y ago
I'd imagine there are multiple approaches to this e.g. shredding heads which break up soft material in front of the bot, or multi-robot configurations for snaking material. There might be an efficiency gain to be had in overall city plumbing by breaking up detritus which has gotten stuck in the pipe.
yojo 1y ago
Leaks are more common on the pressurized side. Which is the clean water coming in. If you have hairy fatbergs in your supply you’ve got bigger problems. The article describes them being “dropped in at hydrants.” So I think they’re punting on the “hairier” problem of the sewer side. Edit: okay, I kept reading and they do mention pressurized waste lines. That does seem harder, especially since you’re going to get root intrusion on old public lines.
- Bluestein 1y ago
  > you have hairy fatbergs in your supply you’ve got bigger problems. Shudder at the thought ...
- toast0 1y ago
  Unpressurized sewers are often pretty leaky actually. A lot of early sewage systems have combined sanitary and storm sewers, but around the 1940s, separating santiary sewers from runoff drains became common for new systems. Even in separate systems, most sewage systems see an increase in volume during the rainy season, and it's not because people pee more when it's wet outside (maybe they do, but...). Ground water leaks into the sanitary sewers; and presumably sewage leaks out of the pipes into the ground at times. As long as the slopes are reasonable, and there is free flow, leaks aren't a big deal... but leaks and gaps do allow for root intrusion which leads to clogs. Typically municipal sewer lines are pretty deep and tend to be towards the middle of the street which makes it harder for plants to get in there, but some plants are pretty persistent. Here's an EPA manual from 1971, Prevention and Correction of Excessive Infiltration and Inflow into Sewer Systems. The key thing here is that the goal isn't to eliminate infiltration, but to eliminate excessive infiltration; it's all tradeoffs. https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPURL.cgi?Dockey=9100WH40.txt https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPURL.cgi?Dockey=9100WH40.txt
amelius 1y ago
> I'm dealing with a clogged and nasty kitchen sink right now Pro tip, buy one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Einhell-Power-X-Change-Cordless-Cleaner/dp/B0B6VLZHP4 https://www.amazon.com/Einhell-Power-X-Change-Cordless-Clean...
- giardini 1y ago
  You crazy! $220 battery and charger not included?! I'm more a $44 guy: https://www.amazon.com/RIDGID-57043-Drain-Cleaner-Power/dp/B079Q2Q3TT/ https://www.amazon.com/RIDGID-57043-Drain-Cleaner-Power/dp/B... It still works during a flood or power outage!
  - amelius 1y ago
    I think I bought mine for $150 including the battery and charger. Money well spent, if you ask me (certainly cheaper than hiring a plumber). Before that I had a manual version similar to the one you linked to, but it just didn't cut it in my last case of a clogged kitchen drain. The nice thing about the automatic version is that you can go in/out and clockwise/counterclockwise independently and with a simple switch, which makes it easy to route through complicated pipe geometries without getting stuck, and you don't even have to apply much force because the machine does that for you.
    - devonbleak 1y ago
      You can pop the handle off that Ridgid one and there's a hex bit you can hook up to your existing drill. It's admittedly a bit wonky to operate like that, but for a single family home it's mostly workable.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
bell-cot 1y ago
If anyone is unfamiliar with fatbergs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatberg That I've heard, the best way to minimize fatbergs would be to put a hefty tax on "flushable" wipes. Unfortunately, the companies which manufacture them all know that breaking consumers' fell-good delusions (that the wipes are guilt-free flushable) would tank their sales. And politicians are always happy to let lobby-savvy corporations externalize their costs onto the public purse.
- JTbane 1y ago
  IMO the gov't should skip the hefty tax and force them to remove the "flushable" label.
  - bell-cot 1y ago
    Tomayto, tomahto. The important thing would be to block them from replacing "flushable" with something similarly deceiving. Ideally, they'd have to replace it with a big, scary warning label - about how flushing those wipes could stick you with a flood of backed-up sewage and/or a 5-figure plumbing or septic system repair bill.
- anton-c 1y ago
  Are any types of those wipes actually flushable?
  - red-iron-pine 1y ago
    generally, no. if they're wet before they get used, flushing them won't fix anything. toilet paper is designed to break down rapidly, even when compared to things like paper towels and tissues.

cinntaile 1y ago

Prevention is easier. I would suggest you stop pouring oil and fat into your kitchen sink. These are research prototype robots, they're obviously not ready for the real world yet.

the__alchemist 1y ago
Idealist perspective
evrimoztamur 1y ago
Prevention is not the cure to the tragedy of the commons, we always need to be able to react. I don't pour oil down my drain, but the rest of the building does, which is how my six-meter wire won't do jack. A laboratory environment which is devoid of any resemblance to the real world will yield you different results compared to had you designed and built first for the environments you will encounter, would you agree? And these results could have capabilities not transferrable between different environments. I try to raise these questions in good faith: For example, are wheels the way to go at all for filthy pipe environments with many sticky and tangly hazards, or do we perhaps have to explore more snake/worm form factors? If we design for the clean environments, all the magical "cost savings for infrastructure restoration" accounting you can do will never materialize.
- adrian_b 1y ago
  You are right, in the filthiest environments nothing else can be as performant as a worm/snake-like robot, even if such robots are inferior to those with wheels or rotary propellers in nice tidy environments. Moreover, instead of making a robot with arms, which are useful for work, but which are an impediment for moving in a filthy environment, it is better to send multiple vermiform robots, which are designed such as after reaching their destination they are able to cooperate in such a way as to act like a robot with multiple arms (i.e. they should be able to attach to anything in the environment or to another robot with both the anterior end and the posterior end, like leeches).
  - Bluestein 1y ago
    This an 'em newfangled "flexible" (ie. "banana") robots are really interesting ...
MangoToupe 1y ago
Given the rate I see people openly advocating for disposal of oil and fat down the sink as a response to rises in rent, good luck with prevention.

idiotsecant 1y ago

They've had pipeline 'pigs' for quite a while that at first we're just solid plugs separating product but have gotten to be fancier and fancier. I think a drain robot would be like that.

dardeaup 1y ago
I know that the pipeline pigs existed at least as far back as the early 90s (maybe even long before then).
- EvanAnderson 1y ago
  Pipelines are cool. I don't have any direct references to give you, but you can search-engine for some interesting stuff. I did work for a petroleum distributor years ago and got to talk people w/ pipeline experience. An interesting anecdote I can relate is learning abut "transmix", AKA "slop". I worked on a logistics planning app (a really, really fun mix of traveling salesman and bin packing). I saw an entry for "slop" in the pricing feed from an exchange. This caught my eye and led me to talk to one of the "pipeline guys" about what "slop" might be (spoiler - it's a mix of pipeline products that happens when the product in the pipeline is changed) and why one might want to buy "slop".

bob1029 1y ago

I was observing an army of 20-25 men struggle to resolve a broken main the other day. They had to bring out a gigantic vac truck to pull the water out of the work pit fast enough to get back in there. If you offered them the use of your robot, you would probably be at risk of bodily harm.

jstanley 1y ago
Why?
- anton-c 1y ago
  I'm struggling to follow that too. Maybe because they're all getting paid?
paddy_m 1y ago
The giant vac truck generally is for safe digging around other unknown utilities. Sometimes this is combined with a water jet that loosens soil, and the vac sucks up the soil and water. If they wanted to just drain an excavation, they would use a regular trash pump (capable of handling solids/sand) and run the discharge hose to a nearby stormdrain.
paddy_m 1y ago
Also, fun fact about Boston (MA?) construction laws. Per block, a crew is only allowed two steel plates... In the past year, the gas line and water main on my street has been replaced. Which has resulted in 6 excavations of the street at excruciatingly slow and loud pace with the vac truck. They excavate once to transfer each finger connection (to the houses) and attach the feeder to a temporary pipe, refilling their progress each day. Once a segment (about a city block or two) been transferred to the temporary line, they excavate again to remove the old line, refilling each day. Finally they lay the new line and connect the finger lines to it. If you can only cover two steel plates worth of trench overnight, there isn't a chance for the gas team to coordinate with the water team. With better laws this would have taken a 1/3rd of the excavation, possibly a 1/6th of the excavation. Since excavation and refilling were most of the work in any day, this should also have led to the same cost decrease. I don't know the exact law or regulation, but I have heard about it from multiple sources, and do intend to being it up with city council.

lumost 1y ago

I'd imagine there are multiple approaches to this e.g. shredding heads which break up soft material in front of the bot, or multi-robot configurations for snaking material. There might be an efficiency gain to be had in overall city plumbing by breaking up detritus which has gotten stuck in the pipe.

yojo 1y ago

Leaks are more common on the pressurized side. Which is the clean water coming in. If you have hairy fatbergs in your supply you’ve got bigger problems. The article describes them being “dropped in at hydrants.” So I think they’re punting on the “hairier” problem of the sewer side. Edit: okay, I kept reading and they do mention pressurized waste lines. That does seem harder, especially since you’re going to get root intrusion on old public lines.

Bluestein 1y ago
> you have hairy fatbergs in your supply you’ve got bigger problems. Shudder at the thought ...
toast0 1y ago
Unpressurized sewers are often pretty leaky actually. A lot of early sewage systems have combined sanitary and storm sewers, but around the 1940s, separating santiary sewers from runoff drains became common for new systems. Even in separate systems, most sewage systems see an increase in volume during the rainy season, and it's not because people pee more when it's wet outside (maybe they do, but...). Ground water leaks into the sanitary sewers; and presumably sewage leaks out of the pipes into the ground at times. As long as the slopes are reasonable, and there is free flow, leaks aren't a big deal... but leaks and gaps do allow for root intrusion which leads to clogs. Typically municipal sewer lines are pretty deep and tend to be towards the middle of the street which makes it harder for plants to get in there, but some plants are pretty persistent. Here's an EPA manual from 1971, Prevention and Correction of Excessive Infiltration and Inflow into Sewer Systems. The key thing here is that the goal isn't to eliminate infiltration, but to eliminate excessive infiltration; it's all tradeoffs. https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPURL.cgi?Dockey=9100WH40.txt https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPURL.cgi?Dockey=9100WH40.txt

amelius 1y ago

> I'm dealing with a clogged and nasty kitchen sink right now Pro tip, buy one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Einhell-Power-X-Change-Cordless-Cleaner/dp/B0B6VLZHP4 https://www.amazon.com/Einhell-Power-X-Change-Cordless-Clean...

giardini 1y ago
You crazy! $220 battery and charger not included?! I'm more a $44 guy: https://www.amazon.com/RIDGID-57043-Drain-Cleaner-Power/dp/B079Q2Q3TT/ https://www.amazon.com/RIDGID-57043-Drain-Cleaner-Power/dp/B... It still works during a flood or power outage!
- amelius 1y ago
  I think I bought mine for $150 including the battery and charger. Money well spent, if you ask me (certainly cheaper than hiring a plumber). Before that I had a manual version similar to the one you linked to, but it just didn't cut it in my last case of a clogged kitchen drain. The nice thing about the automatic version is that you can go in/out and clockwise/counterclockwise independently and with a simple switch, which makes it easy to route through complicated pipe geometries without getting stuck, and you don't even have to apply much force because the machine does that for you.
  - devonbleak 1y ago
    You can pop the handle off that Ridgid one and there's a hex bit you can hook up to your existing drill. It's admittedly a bit wonky to operate like that, but for a single family home it's mostly workable.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

bell-cot 1y ago

If anyone is unfamiliar with fatbergs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatberg That I've heard, the best way to minimize fatbergs would be to put a hefty tax on "flushable" wipes. Unfortunately, the companies which manufacture them all know that breaking consumers' fell-good delusions (that the wipes are guilt-free flushable) would tank their sales. And politicians are always happy to let lobby-savvy corporations externalize their costs onto the public purse.

JTbane 1y ago
IMO the gov't should skip the hefty tax and force them to remove the "flushable" label.
- bell-cot 1y ago
  Tomayto, tomahto. The important thing would be to block them from replacing "flushable" with something similarly deceiving. Ideally, they'd have to replace it with a big, scary warning label - about how flushing those wipes could stick you with a flood of backed-up sewage and/or a 5-figure plumbing or septic system repair bill.
anton-c 1y ago
Are any types of those wipes actually flushable?
- red-iron-pine 1y ago
  generally, no. if they're wet before they get used, flushing them won't fix anything. toilet paper is designed to break down rapidly, even when compared to things like paper towels and tissues.