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[flagged]

ben_w 1y ago
That a Ukraine loss is seen as the end of a free Europe (because Russia wouldn't stop at least until at least DDR Germany borders), is why the other European nations are collectively increasing military spending. For a sense of scale (only scale, money is definitely not the most important criteria), the EU currently spends twice as much on their military as Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest... So if (when) American support disappears, I expect Russia to continue to not go anywhere fast while wasting a lot of lives in the process. I also expect this to surprise Putin, as he thinks Russia is a Great Power and therefore can only be stalling if Ukraine is supported by another Great Power and doesn't recognise that (1) Russia isn't, and (2) the EU kinda is, sort of, when it feels like acting with unity rather than as 27 different nations.
- 4gotunameagain 1y ago
  It makes no sense whatsoever for Russia to attack more states than Ukraine. The sole reason Russia invaded Ukraine was that it was flirting too much with NATO. Putin might be a lunatic, but he is not stupid.
  - shafyy 1y ago
    It also made "no sense" for Russia to attack Ukraine. This is not about rational thinking.
    - 4gotunameagain 1y ago
      If we are to be completely rational, what made no sense was Ukraine thinking it could be a part of NATO, or independent. It is the sad reality of existing next to a superpower. You cannot be independent. It would either be heavily influenced by Russia, or the option B they chose: in rubble.
      - ben_w 1y ago
        Russia stopped being a superpower with the fall of the USSR. And before anyone says so, "has a permanent seat on UN security council" doesn't count, the UK and France also have that status and even combined were no longer superpowers by the time of the Suez crisis. Likewise "has nukes" is not sufficient. The EU is closer to being one than Russia is today, and even then the EU is only kinda a bit of one in some measures but not all.
        SirMaster 1y ago
        Why does every source I can find list Russia as a superpower?
        ben_w 1y ago
        To hazard a guess: because Google et al think you're the kind of person who clicks that kind of source. When I search for list of superpowers, I get superheroes — obviously nobody on Marvel or DC is going to be listed as having "Russia" as their superpower, but this does illustrate what it is that search engines do these days, and it's not objective truth.
        SirMaster 1y ago
        When you search for a list of superpowers? I mean did you not simply include the word countries? Do you have a good authoritative source that lists the superpower countries that does not include Russia?
        ben_w 1y ago
        > When you search for a list of superpowers? I mean did you not simply include the word countries? Sure, but also in writing this reply, "cia superpower list" to see if they had anything "authoritative" got me CIA's paranormal research: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/cia-rdp96-00792r000300330001-8 https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/cia-rdp96-00792r000... > Do you have a good authoritative source that lists the superpower countries that does not include Russia? In most cases, the statement I see is that the USA is "the", singular, superpower. So none of my sources are lists. What counts as a "good authoritative source", for you? And when? Samuel P. Huntington was highly rated in his day, but "The Lonely Superpower" was 1999: https://web.archive.org/web/20060427150630/http://www-stage.foreignaffairs.org/19990301faessay966/samuel-p-huntington/the-lonely-superpower.html https://web.archive.org/web/20060427150630/http://www-stage.... RAND I think still are, and this was 2019, "Russia Is a Rogue, Not a Peer; China Is a Peer, Not a Rogue": https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE310.html https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE310.html Is nationalinterest.org "authoritative"? "What Happens When America Is No Longer the Undisputed Super Power?", 2020: https://nationalinterest.org/feature/what-happens-when-america-no-longer-undisputed-super-power-166828 https://nationalinterest.org/feature/what-happens-when-ameri... I could link to Wikipedia, which says of Russia "potential" superpower (along with the EU, China, and India), not currently an extant superpower. But that's not what I'd call "authoritative". And this is the point where I got that link to the CIA's paranormal research. The CIA's World Factbook doesn't even describe the USA as a "superpower", at least not at the time of writing: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/united-states/ https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/united-stat...
  - fnordian_slip 1y ago
    The sole reason Germany annexed Czechoslovakia was was that there were atrocities being committed against the Sudeten[0]. He even made a speech at the Sportpalast in Berlin in which he stated that the Sudetenland was "the last territorial demand I have to make in Europe". So all's fine, and we don't have to worry about Germany. 0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_Munich https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_Munich
    - berdario 1y ago
      One big difference, is that the opposition to nazi Germany was relatively weak before the start of WW2: After Reginald Drax's mission to Moscow failed, the Soviet Union ended up signing its famous non-aggression pact. Italy was allied, Spain was neutral/aligned. Turkiye was neutral. Poland could only count on UK and France[0]. Compare to now, where the NATO military bloc is massive. No one would dare risking a military confrontation in these circumstances. If anything, when there are any tensions between two non-NATO countries, it makes it more urgent for one to oppose the other joining NATO (attacking before they'd join NATO would stave off them joining, attacking after they'd join NATO would lead to an unwinnable fight). 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Polish_military_alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Polish_military_alliance
      - computerthings 1y ago
        [dead]
    - jskelly 1y ago
      The article you cite says nothing about the /alleged/ [by Hitler as a pretext for annexation] atrocities against Sudeten Germans. The expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia _after_ World War II was an ugly chapter, but really -- there were no 'atrocities' being committed against that population /before/ the war. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudeten_German_uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudeten_German_uprising
      - fnordian_slip 1y ago
  - ben_w 1y ago
    In addition to the other responses: > The sole reason Russia invaded Ukraine was that it was flirting too much with NATO. Which was only a problem for Putin because Putin's world view is that Great Powers (such as Russia, in his mind) should have a sphere of influence, whereas most everyone else thinks Ukraine is a sovereign nation who has the right to decide for itself which treaties it does or doesn't belong to. Even then, more like begging than flirting; the invasion made it much more likely. Likewise EU membership.
  - pjc50 1y ago
    .. which has had the effect of forcing formerly neutral Finland, which shares a border with Russia, to join NATO. The claim that Russia has a right to dictate the alliances of other countries simply because they border it is ludicrous and violates international law. (Simo Häyhä had something to say about last time Russia invaded Finland)
    - 4gotunameagain 1y ago
      The same way the US has left all the countries around it alone ? Are you joking ? The list of US backed military coups in the Americas does not fit on an A4 page with a font size small enough to be unreadable.
      - pjc50 1y ago
        Easy response: those were also wrong. As was the invasion of Iraq, which arguably ended up being used as a justification in the opposite direction.
      - ben_w 1y ago
        Another easy response to go with pjc50's: why do you think Cuba was so eager to get some Soviet nuclear missiles?
  - triceratops 1y ago
    > The sole reason Russia invaded Ukraine was that it was flirting too much with NATO. I don't understand, are you trying to make Russia sound like an incel? It's not a flattering look.
  - BlueTemplar 1y ago
    Putin (et al.) has already proven to be stupid : the invasion of Ukraine was going quite well for him since 2014, he could have continued salami slicing it while the EU was still mostly asleep (and not willing to make a fuss as a Russian hydrocarbons importer). But no, he went for a 'quick' victory instead, and ended up bogged in a much higher intensity war, made the Russian military a laughing stock, and kicked the EU/Nato bees nest so hard that another 2 countries immediately joined NATO.
nandomrumber 1y ago
[flagged]
- aredox 1y ago
  That's until you get disabled in an accident - or your son or daughter is. Then you'll suddenly convert to how benefits are essential. (In before: "I don't need a car insurance, I'll never get into any accident, I am too good a driver for that")
  - nandomrumber 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - mschuster91 1y ago
      > The number of elderly Australians who live alone with no family, or no family nearby, is truely disappointing. That's a thing across all Western societies, and we got unchecked rabid capitalism and a complete lack of industry structural politics to thank for that one. Young people not living in an urban area have little choice but to leave there to find employment and higher level education.
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
    - aredox 1y ago
      Who is "we"? The big welfare state was born in the post-war boom, a period of big, strong families that believed in the future. The dismantling of the Family and of the Welfare State, and of Unions, and of any kind of support and collaboration between salaried people go hand-in-hand. Late stage capitalism needs to extract everything from everyone, without opposition. Having people desperate for a job at any cost because they don't a a support network is the ideal state for our managers and bosses. Welcome to the anti-neoliberalism camp :)
    - zbentley 1y ago
csomar 1y ago
You being down-voted is more testament to the orientation of thinking clouding judgment here in HN. Ukraine losing the war will be a massive blow for Europe. Sibling commentator mentioned doubling of the military budget but this disregard readiness of engagement and unity[1]. Nato was the creation of the US and the US pulling out requires, probably, another entity with committed members. 1: https://www.politico.eu/article/italy-grand-plan-meet-nato-target-13-5b-bridge-sicily-donlad-trump-silvio-berlusconi-messina/ https://www.politico.eu/article/italy-grand-plan-meet-nato-t...
- Barrin92 1y ago
  >Ukraine losing the war will be a massive blow for Europe There is no such thing. Even if Ukraine cannot recapture all of the lost territory, it's Russia who has already lost. That a country four times the population, ten times as rich has incurred a million casualties, switched to a war economy, has to throw tens of thousand of North Koreans into a war in Europe, merely to creep forward by a few meters has to be the largest humiliation to an alleged "great power" in a century. All of this while Europe has not even remilitarized, with Ukraine becoming a major producer of military technology in its own right, the country is now largely self sufficient in terms of its drone output among other things, is one of the strongest signs of resilience of this continent.
jajko 1y ago
[flagged]
- asimovfan 1y ago
  can you please talk more about the socialism that is prevalent in the EU? what do you exactly mean by "hard focus on socialism"?
- mschuster91 1y ago
  > US has trump and I see no end of US anytime soon, sure some self-harm is happening right now but thats about it, that nation is stronger than that. That remains to be seen. Trump and his goons are breaking apart the foundations of society as we speak, not to mention the decades of Republican gerrymandering. The complete and utter loss of trust in the US on the geopolitical stage is another huge issue, it will be a long time before Europe or Southern America trust the US again - the hope that Trump would be a short-term one-off event went out the window last year. > Compared to hard focus on socialism that was (and still is) prevalent in EU, some better balance is required in these times. Where outside of Spain does Europe actually have socialists even as part of the government? Most countries here are run by the far-right (e.g. Italy, Hungary, Slovakia, the Netherlands), centrists/conservatives (Germany, Poland, Croatia), Social Democrats, neoliberals (France) or coalitions of these. > Nah I am not worried about [Russia], they are consistently unable to wage modern war to benefit of us all. Never underestimate the willingness of Russian leaders to sacrifice their population for meat-grinder wars. > In the meantime we arm and train ourselves, stronger Europe is always better for any future scenario, internally and externally. Agreed, the problem is we can't be arsed to actually evolve to a truly federal society anywhere close to the US. Economically there has been a lot of integration happening, but politically... oh that's one hell of a clusterfuck.
  - tromp 1y ago
    > run by the far-right (e.g. Italy, Hungary, Slovakia, the Netherlands), Since the far right PVV stepped out of the Dutch governing coalition, they should now be placed with the centrists/conservatives.
briangriffinfan 1y ago
Promise?
mrtksn 1y ago
>end of Europe How do you picture this? People in Paris disappear with a flash of light and baguettes falling on the ground? Or is ot more like the earth shakes and it all goes under the water? Or maybe something like Europeans collectively decide to do whatever Putin tells them? Or maybe suddenly adopt American and Russian way of life, like Italians burn their Fiat 500's and order Ford F-150's, throw away their wines and start brewing votka? Or maybe turn against each other and break down their functioning trade and cultural relations and just buy Russian and American stuff instead and pay with what? BTW the blaming immigrants and tearing down the social state doesn't work for long because you have finite number of immigrants and social services. If you actually get rid of those and things don't improve people start to notice. A common strategy is to keep blaming those when not doing anything about it or even increase it but the problem with that is, people get tired and actually change you with someone who actually will do something about it and you end up doing something. This something can be to fix the issues and remove the pressure or remove the immigrants and the social sistem and you get a very strong counter action and flushes away those who did it. However way it goes it's not an end or beginning of anything as EU isn't an empire like the US, just bunch of sovereign states in coordination.
- jordanb 1y ago
  "End of Europe" as a coherent entity that's willing and able to look after its own interests. Even as Ukrainians die in the meat grinder and Germany is lauded as Ukraine's best friend in Europe, millions of dollars of dual-use technology products from Germany continue to transship into Russia via Kazakhstan. Imagine if it was 1942 and Britain was still shipping millions of dollars of weapons components into Germany via Sweden or Switzerland?
  - mrtksn 1y ago
    Europe is far from coherent, even if it is the most coherent that ever has been. Meanwhile, support rate for EU and Eurozone is highest ever among EU member states and Europe as a whole. If anything, people are annoyed that EU struggles to be decisive as Europeans want more EU, not less. This new situation even paved the way for collaboration previously thought to be far fetched dream. I don't know how all this will unfold but if tonight Europe ends as we know it, tomorrow we will have European federation and the discussions won't be about the petty local issues but thinks like EU army etc. as all Europeans are very annoyed by Russia, USA and the current state of affairs in Europe. Check the stats, Europeans don't buy into the agenda pushed by the American libertarians. People want bigger stronger EU to take over where USA abandoned.
pjc50 1y ago
This looks plausible: > Europe will increasingly be ran by right-wing autocrats shredding the social state and blaming immigrants. This does not: > Ukraine losing the war will be the end of Europe Both the question of losing (the war is somewhat stalemated, and Europe itself is rearming .. although still not breaking dependency on Russian gas!) and the idea that this will somehow "end Europe". If anything, Brexit pretty much demolished similar movements across the EU. The EU's squishyness is mistaken for weakness by too many people who are fans of "muscular" rhetoric.
tomhow 1y ago
Please don't respond to grand pronouncements about a nation or continent with one of your own. This just perpetuates the kind of flamewar we're trying to avoid here, and thus counts as flamebait, which is explicitly against the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[flagged]

That a Ukraine loss is seen as the end of a free Europe (because Russia wouldn't stop at least until at least DDR Germany borders), is why the other European nations are collectively increasing military spending. For a sense of scale (only scale, money is definitely not the most important criteria), the EU currently spends twice as much on their military as Russia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest_military_expenditures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_highest... So if (when) American support disappears, I expect Russia to continue to not go anywhere fast while wasting a lot of lives in the process. I also expect this to surprise Putin, as he thinks Russia is a Great Power and therefore can only be stalling if Ukraine is supported by another Great Power and doesn't recognise that (1) Russia isn't, and (2) the EU kinda is, sort of, when it feels like acting with unity rather than as 27 different nations.

4gotunameagain 1y ago
It makes no sense whatsoever for Russia to attack more states than Ukraine. The sole reason Russia invaded Ukraine was that it was flirting too much with NATO. Putin might be a lunatic, but he is not stupid.
- shafyy 1y ago
  It also made "no sense" for Russia to attack Ukraine. This is not about rational thinking.
  - 4gotunameagain 1y ago
    If we are to be completely rational, what made no sense was Ukraine thinking it could be a part of NATO, or independent. It is the sad reality of existing next to a superpower. You cannot be independent. It would either be heavily influenced by Russia, or the option B they chose: in rubble.
    - ben_w 1y ago
      Russia stopped being a superpower with the fall of the USSR. And before anyone says so, "has a permanent seat on UN security council" doesn't count, the UK and France also have that status and even combined were no longer superpowers by the time of the Suez crisis. Likewise "has nukes" is not sufficient. The EU is closer to being one than Russia is today, and even then the EU is only kinda a bit of one in some measures but not all.
      - SirMaster 1y ago
        Why does every source I can find list Russia as a superpower?
        ben_w 1y ago
        To hazard a guess: because Google et al think you're the kind of person who clicks that kind of source. When I search for list of superpowers, I get superheroes — obviously nobody on Marvel or DC is going to be listed as having "Russia" as their superpower, but this does illustrate what it is that search engines do these days, and it's not objective truth.
        SirMaster 1y ago
        When you search for a list of superpowers? I mean did you not simply include the word countries? Do you have a good authoritative source that lists the superpower countries that does not include Russia?
        ben_w 1y ago
        > When you search for a list of superpowers? I mean did you not simply include the word countries? Sure, but also in writing this reply, "cia superpower list" to see if they had anything "authoritative" got me CIA's paranormal research: https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/cia-rdp96-00792r000300330001-8 https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/document/cia-rdp96-00792r000... > Do you have a good authoritative source that lists the superpower countries that does not include Russia? In most cases, the statement I see is that the USA is "the", singular, superpower. So none of my sources are lists. What counts as a "good authoritative source", for you? And when? Samuel P. Huntington was highly rated in his day, but "The Lonely Superpower" was 1999: https://web.archive.org/web/20060427150630/http://www-stage.foreignaffairs.org/19990301faessay966/samuel-p-huntington/the-lonely-superpower.html https://web.archive.org/web/20060427150630/http://www-stage.... RAND I think still are, and this was 2019, "Russia Is a Rogue, Not a Peer; China Is a Peer, Not a Rogue": https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE310.html https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE310.html Is nationalinterest.org "authoritative"? "What Happens When America Is No Longer the Undisputed Super Power?", 2020: https://nationalinterest.org/feature/what-happens-when-america-no-longer-undisputed-super-power-166828 https://nationalinterest.org/feature/what-happens-when-ameri... I could link to Wikipedia, which says of Russia "potential" superpower (along with the EU, China, and India), not currently an extant superpower. But that's not what I'd call "authoritative". And this is the point where I got that link to the CIA's paranormal research. The CIA's World Factbook doesn't even describe the USA as a "superpower", at least not at the time of writing: https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/united-states/ https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/countries/united-stat...
- fnordian_slip 1y ago
  The sole reason Germany annexed Czechoslovakia was was that there were atrocities being committed against the Sudeten[0]. He even made a speech at the Sportpalast in Berlin in which he stated that the Sudetenland was "the last territorial demand I have to make in Europe". So all's fine, and we don't have to worry about Germany. 0: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_Munich https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesson_of_Munich
  - berdario 1y ago
    One big difference, is that the opposition to nazi Germany was relatively weak before the start of WW2: After Reginald Drax's mission to Moscow failed, the Soviet Union ended up signing its famous non-aggression pact. Italy was allied, Spain was neutral/aligned. Turkiye was neutral. Poland could only count on UK and France[0]. Compare to now, where the NATO military bloc is massive. No one would dare risking a military confrontation in these circumstances. If anything, when there are any tensions between two non-NATO countries, it makes it more urgent for one to oppose the other joining NATO (attacking before they'd join NATO would stave off them joining, attacking after they'd join NATO would lead to an unwinnable fight). 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Polish_military_alliance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Polish_military_alliance
    - computerthings 1y ago
      [dead]
  - jskelly 1y ago
    The article you cite says nothing about the /alleged/ [by Hitler as a pretext for annexation] atrocities against Sudeten Germans. The expulsion of Germans from Czechoslovakia _after_ World War II was an ugly chapter, but really -- there were no 'atrocities' being committed against that population /before/ the war. See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudeten_German_uprising https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudeten_German_uprising
    - fnordian_slip 1y ago
- ben_w 1y ago
  In addition to the other responses: > The sole reason Russia invaded Ukraine was that it was flirting too much with NATO. Which was only a problem for Putin because Putin's world view is that Great Powers (such as Russia, in his mind) should have a sphere of influence, whereas most everyone else thinks Ukraine is a sovereign nation who has the right to decide for itself which treaties it does or doesn't belong to. Even then, more like begging than flirting; the invasion made it much more likely. Likewise EU membership.
- pjc50 1y ago
  .. which has had the effect of forcing formerly neutral Finland, which shares a border with Russia, to join NATO. The claim that Russia has a right to dictate the alliances of other countries simply because they border it is ludicrous and violates international law. (Simo Häyhä had something to say about last time Russia invaded Finland)
  - 4gotunameagain 1y ago
    The same way the US has left all the countries around it alone ? Are you joking ? The list of US backed military coups in the Americas does not fit on an A4 page with a font size small enough to be unreadable.
    - pjc50 1y ago
      Easy response: those were also wrong. As was the invasion of Iraq, which arguably ended up being used as a justification in the opposite direction.
    - ben_w 1y ago
      Another easy response to go with pjc50's: why do you think Cuba was so eager to get some Soviet nuclear missiles?
- triceratops 1y ago
  > The sole reason Russia invaded Ukraine was that it was flirting too much with NATO. I don't understand, are you trying to make Russia sound like an incel? It's not a flattering look.
- BlueTemplar 1y ago
  Putin (et al.) has already proven to be stupid : the invasion of Ukraine was going quite well for him since 2014, he could have continued salami slicing it while the EU was still mostly asleep (and not willing to make a fuss as a Russian hydrocarbons importer). But no, he went for a 'quick' victory instead, and ended up bogged in a much higher intensity war, made the Russian military a laughing stock, and kicked the EU/Nato bees nest so hard that another 2 countries immediately joined NATO.

nandomrumber 1y ago

[flagged]

aredox 1y ago
That's until you get disabled in an accident - or your son or daughter is. Then you'll suddenly convert to how benefits are essential. (In before: "I don't need a car insurance, I'll never get into any accident, I am too good a driver for that")
- nandomrumber 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - mschuster91 1y ago
    > The number of elderly Australians who live alone with no family, or no family nearby, is truely disappointing. That's a thing across all Western societies, and we got unchecked rabid capitalism and a complete lack of industry structural politics to thank for that one. Young people not living in an urban area have little choice but to leave there to find employment and higher level education.
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - aredox 1y ago
    Who is "we"? The big welfare state was born in the post-war boom, a period of big, strong families that believed in the future. The dismantling of the Family and of the Welfare State, and of Unions, and of any kind of support and collaboration between salaried people go hand-in-hand. Late stage capitalism needs to extract everything from everyone, without opposition. Having people desperate for a job at any cost because they don't a a support network is the ideal state for our managers and bosses. Welcome to the anti-neoliberalism camp :)
  - zbentley 1y ago

csomar 1y ago

You being down-voted is more testament to the orientation of thinking clouding judgment here in HN. Ukraine losing the war will be a massive blow for Europe. Sibling commentator mentioned doubling of the military budget but this disregard readiness of engagement and unity[1]. Nato was the creation of the US and the US pulling out requires, probably, another entity with committed members. 1: https://www.politico.eu/article/italy-grand-plan-meet-nato-target-13-5b-bridge-sicily-donlad-trump-silvio-berlusconi-messina/ https://www.politico.eu/article/italy-grand-plan-meet-nato-t...

Barrin92 1y ago
>Ukraine losing the war will be a massive blow for Europe There is no such thing. Even if Ukraine cannot recapture all of the lost territory, it's Russia who has already lost. That a country four times the population, ten times as rich has incurred a million casualties, switched to a war economy, has to throw tens of thousand of North Koreans into a war in Europe, merely to creep forward by a few meters has to be the largest humiliation to an alleged "great power" in a century. All of this while Europe has not even remilitarized, with Ukraine becoming a major producer of military technology in its own right, the country is now largely self sufficient in terms of its drone output among other things, is one of the strongest signs of resilience of this continent.

jajko 1y ago

[flagged]

asimovfan 1y ago
can you please talk more about the socialism that is prevalent in the EU? what do you exactly mean by "hard focus on socialism"?
mschuster91 1y ago
> US has trump and I see no end of US anytime soon, sure some self-harm is happening right now but thats about it, that nation is stronger than that. That remains to be seen. Trump and his goons are breaking apart the foundations of society as we speak, not to mention the decades of Republican gerrymandering. The complete and utter loss of trust in the US on the geopolitical stage is another huge issue, it will be a long time before Europe or Southern America trust the US again - the hope that Trump would be a short-term one-off event went out the window last year. > Compared to hard focus on socialism that was (and still is) prevalent in EU, some better balance is required in these times. Where outside of Spain does Europe actually have socialists even as part of the government? Most countries here are run by the far-right (e.g. Italy, Hungary, Slovakia, the Netherlands), centrists/conservatives (Germany, Poland, Croatia), Social Democrats, neoliberals (France) or coalitions of these. > Nah I am not worried about [Russia], they are consistently unable to wage modern war to benefit of us all. Never underestimate the willingness of Russian leaders to sacrifice their population for meat-grinder wars. > In the meantime we arm and train ourselves, stronger Europe is always better for any future scenario, internally and externally. Agreed, the problem is we can't be arsed to actually evolve to a truly federal society anywhere close to the US. Economically there has been a lot of integration happening, but politically... oh that's one hell of a clusterfuck.
- tromp 1y ago
  > run by the far-right (e.g. Italy, Hungary, Slovakia, the Netherlands), Since the far right PVV stepped out of the Dutch governing coalition, they should now be placed with the centrists/conservatives.

briangriffinfan 1y ago

Promise?

mrtksn 1y ago

>end of Europe How do you picture this? People in Paris disappear with a flash of light and baguettes falling on the ground? Or is ot more like the earth shakes and it all goes under the water? Or maybe something like Europeans collectively decide to do whatever Putin tells them? Or maybe suddenly adopt American and Russian way of life, like Italians burn their Fiat 500's and order Ford F-150's, throw away their wines and start brewing votka? Or maybe turn against each other and break down their functioning trade and cultural relations and just buy Russian and American stuff instead and pay with what? BTW the blaming immigrants and tearing down the social state doesn't work for long because you have finite number of immigrants and social services. If you actually get rid of those and things don't improve people start to notice. A common strategy is to keep blaming those when not doing anything about it or even increase it but the problem with that is, people get tired and actually change you with someone who actually will do something about it and you end up doing something. This something can be to fix the issues and remove the pressure or remove the immigrants and the social sistem and you get a very strong counter action and flushes away those who did it. However way it goes it's not an end or beginning of anything as EU isn't an empire like the US, just bunch of sovereign states in coordination.

jordanb 1y ago
"End of Europe" as a coherent entity that's willing and able to look after its own interests. Even as Ukrainians die in the meat grinder and Germany is lauded as Ukraine's best friend in Europe, millions of dollars of dual-use technology products from Germany continue to transship into Russia via Kazakhstan. Imagine if it was 1942 and Britain was still shipping millions of dollars of weapons components into Germany via Sweden or Switzerland?
- mrtksn 1y ago
  Europe is far from coherent, even if it is the most coherent that ever has been. Meanwhile, support rate for EU and Eurozone is highest ever among EU member states and Europe as a whole. If anything, people are annoyed that EU struggles to be decisive as Europeans want more EU, not less. This new situation even paved the way for collaboration previously thought to be far fetched dream. I don't know how all this will unfold but if tonight Europe ends as we know it, tomorrow we will have European federation and the discussions won't be about the petty local issues but thinks like EU army etc. as all Europeans are very annoyed by Russia, USA and the current state of affairs in Europe. Check the stats, Europeans don't buy into the agenda pushed by the American libertarians. People want bigger stronger EU to take over where USA abandoned.

pjc50 1y ago

This looks plausible: > Europe will increasingly be ran by right-wing autocrats shredding the social state and blaming immigrants. This does not: > Ukraine losing the war will be the end of Europe Both the question of losing (the war is somewhat stalemated, and Europe itself is rearming .. although still not breaking dependency on Russian gas!) and the idea that this will somehow "end Europe". If anything, Brexit pretty much demolished similar movements across the EU. The EU's squishyness is mistaken for weakness by too many people who are fans of "muscular" rhetoric.

tomhow 1y ago

Please don't respond to grand pronouncements about a nation or continent with one of your own. This just perpetuates the kind of flamewar we're trying to avoid here, and thus counts as flamebait, which is explicitly against the guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html