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Can someone make an honest argument for how OpenAI staff are missionaries, after the coup? I'd be very happy to be convinced that supporting the coup was the r
by neilv 1y ago
Can someone make an honest argument for how OpenAI staff are missionaries, after the coup?
I'd be very happy to be convinced that supporting the coup was the right move for true-believer missionaries.
(Edit: It's an honest and obvious question, and I think that the joke responses risk burying or discouraging honest answers.)
- ponector 1y agoThat is just an act of corpo-ceo bulshitting employees and press about high moral standards, mission, etc. Don't trust any of his words.
- noname120 1y agoYes, especially not his
- casualscience 1y agoyeah, I used to work in the medical tech space, they love to tell you how much you should be in it for the mission and that's why your pay is 1/3 what you could make at FAANG... of course, when it came to our sick customers, they need to pay market rates.
- sitkack 1y agoAnytime someone tells you to be in it for the mission, you are expendable and underpaid.
- chaosharmonic 1y agoI don't at all disagree with you, but at the kind of money you'd be making at an org like OAI, it's easy to envision there being a ceiling, past which the additional financial compensation doesn't necessarily matter that much. The problem with the argument is that most places saying this are paying more like a sub-basement, not that there can't genuinely be more important things. That said, Sam Altman is also a guy who stuck nondisparagement terms into their equity agreement... and in that same vein, framing poaching as "someone has broken into our home" reads like cult language.
- ryandrake 1y agoWe shouldn’t even be using the offensive word “poaching.” As an employee, I am not a deer or wild boar owned by a feudal lord by working for his company. And another employer isn’t some thief stealing me away. I have agency and control over who I enter into an employment arrangement with!
- jaza 1y agoSo then, is "headhunting" more or less bad?
- ryandrake 1y agoI think anything that evokes “hunting on someone else’s land for his property” is equally inappropriate.
- jack_riminton 1y agoWould "bought" be better then? implies slavery!
- chaosharmonic 1y agoI don't disagree with this either -- it's very clearly just a free market working both ways. It also immediately reminds me of the no-call agreements companies had with each other last decade 10 or 15yrs ago.
- mbac32768 1y agoCould Facebook hire away OpenAI people just by matching their comp? Doubtful. Facebook is widely hated and embarrassing to work at. Facebook has to offer significantly more. And if someone at OpenAI says hey Facebook just offered me more money to jump ship, that's when OpenAI says "Sorry to hear, best of luck. Seeya!" In this scenario, you're only underpaid by staying at OpenAI if you have no sense of shame.
- simianwords 1y agoI wonder what is it that Facebook offered? It can’t be money so I think it’s more responsibility or freedom. Or they had some secret breakthroughs?
- Palmik 1y agoIt's money. It's also a fresh, small org and a new project, which is exciting for variety of reasons.
- simianwords 1y agoI can't explain why but I don't think money is it. Nor a new project or whatever can't be it either. Its just too small of a value proposition when you are already in openAI making banger models used by the world.
- pm90 1y agoAccording to reports, the comp packages were in the hundreds of millions of dollars. I doubt anyone but execs are making that kind of money at OpenAI; its the sort of money you hope from a successful exit after years of efforts. I don’t blame them for jumping ship.
- lonesword 1y ago> Facebook is widely hated and embarrassing to work at. Not sure it's widely hated (disclaimer: I work there), despite all the bad press. The vast majority of people I meet respond with "oh how cool!" when they hear that someone works for the company that owns Instagram. "Embarassing to work at" - I can count on one hand the number of developers I've met who would refuse to work for Meta out of principle. They are there, but they are rarer than HN likes to believe. Most devs I know associate a FAANG job with competence (correctly or incorrectly). > Could Facebook hire away OpenAI people just by matching their comp? My guess is some people might value Meta's RSUs which are very liquid higher than OAI's illiquid stocks? I have no clue how equity compensation works at OAI.
- DanielHB 1y agoCrazy that this proves that engineers making >1 million USD /year can still be underpaid
- pm90 1y agoYes Capitalism is an amazing thing
- javcasas 1y agoAnd will be fired/thrown under the bus the moment firing you is barely more profitable for the CxO than having you around.
- blitzar 1y agoI need you to be a team player on this one.
- ponector 1y agoThat could be genuine words. Mission is to be expendable and make them rich. Don't forget about the mission during next round of layoffs and record high quarterly profits.
- vram22 1y agoTotally agree. Well said. Man, you are on a mission, to enable manumission! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manumission https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manumission
- _Algernon_ 1y agoAltman has to be the most transparently two-faced tech CEO there is. I don't understand why people still lap up his bullshit.
- Foobar8568 1y agoMoney.
- _Algernon_ 1y agoWhat money is in it for the "rationalist", AI doom crowd that build up the narrative Altman wants for free?
- mitthrowaway2 1y agoSuggesting that the AI doom crowd is building up a narrative for Altman is sort of like saying the hippies protesting nuclear weapons are in bed with the arms makers because they're hyping up the destructive potential of hydrogen bombs.
- _Algernon_ 1y agoThat analogy falls flat. For one we have seen the destructive power of hydrogen bombs through nuclear tests. Nuclear bombs are a proven, real threat that exists now. AGI is the boogeyman under the bed, that somehow ends up never being there when you are looking for it.
- bigyabai 1y agoIt's a real negotiating tactic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinkmanship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brinkmanship If you convince people that AGI is dangerous to humanity and inevitable, then you can force people to agree with outrageous, unnecessary investments to reach the perceived goal first. This exactly happened during the Cold War when Congress was thrown into hysterics by estimates of Soviet ballistic missile numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missile_gap
- KaiserPro 1y agoThere are a couple of ways to read the "coup" saga. 1) Altman was trying to raise cash so that openAI would be the first,best and last to get AGI. That required structural changes before major investors would put in the cash. 2) Altman was trying to raise cash and saw an opportunity to make loads of money 3) Altman isn't the smartest cookie in the jar, and was persuaded by potential/current investors that changing the corp structure was the only way forward. Now, what were the board's concerns? The publicly stated reason was a lack of transparency. Now, to you and me, that sounds a lot like lying. But where did it occur and what was it about. Was it about the reasons for the restructure? was it about the safeguards were offered? The answer to the above shapes the reaction I feel I would have as a missionary If you're a missionary, then you would believe that the corp structure of openai was the key thing that stops it from pursuing "damaging" tactics. Allowing investors to dictate oversight rules undermines that significantly, and allows short term gain to come before longterm/short term safety. However, I was bought out by a FAANG, one I swear I'd never work for, because they are industrial grade shits. Yet, here I am many years later, having profited considerably from working at said FAANG. turns out I have a price, and it wasn't that much.
- 8note 1y agoyeah... didnt the missionaries all leave after the coup? and the folks who remain are the mercenaries looking for the big stock win after sama figures out a way to be acquired or IPO? all the chatter here at least was that the OpenAI folks were sticking around because they were looking for a big payout
- throwawayq3423 1y ago100% agree. You are hearing the dictator claim righteousness.
- ASalazarMX 1y agoI'd bet 100 quatloos that your comment will not have honest arguments below. You can't nurture missionaries in an exploitative environment.
- CamperBob2 1y agoNot to mention, missionaries are exploitative. They're trying to harvest souls for God or (failing the appearance of God to accept their bounty) to expand the influence of their earthbound church. The end result of missionary activity is often something like https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/feb/25/us-evangelical-missionaries-gays-uganda-video https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2014/feb/25/us-evang... . Bottom line, "But... but I'm like a missionary!" isn't my go-to argument when I'm trying to convince people that my own motives are purer than my rival's.
- BoorishBears 1y agoThere's one slightly more common outcome of your so-called "missionary activities".
- TylerE 1y agoEh? Plenty of cults like Jehivahs Witnesses that are exploitive as hell.
- econ 1y ago[flagged]
- riffic 1y agoClose. A missionary is what the sex position was named after.
- CamperBob2 1y agoSpecifically, Catholic missionaries indoctrinating indigenous cultures into their church's imaginary sexual hangups. All other positions were considered sinful. Again, not a label I'd self-apply if I wanted to take the high road.
- jjtheblunt 1y agoenglish is my first language : they mean that Sam Altman's people are preaching a righteous future for AI, or something vague like that.
- mc32 1y agoThey didn't mean it as a pun, but understanding it as a pun helps understand the situation. In religions, missionaries are those people who spread the word of god (gospel) as their mission in life for a reward in the afterlife. Obviously, mercenaries are paid armies who are in it for the money and any other spoils of war (sex, goods, landholdings, etc.) So I guess he's trying to frame it as them being missionaries for an Open and accepting and free Artificial Intelligence and framing Meta as the guys who are only in it for the money and other less savory reasons. Obviously, only true disciples would believe such framing.
- kenjackson 1y agoI'm not very informed about the coup -- but doesn't it just depend on what side most of the employees sat/sit on? I don't know how much of the coup was just egos or really an argument about philosophy that the rank and file care about. But I think this would be the argument.
- kevindamm 1y agoThere was a petition with a startlingly high percentage of employees signing it, but no telling how many of them felt pressured to to keep their job.
- jacquesm 1y agoThey didn't need pressuring. There was enough money involved that was at risk without Sam that they did what they thought was the best way to protect their nest eggs.
- kevindamm 1y agoThat was actually the kind of pressure I was thinking of, not social/managerial pressure, though I think either could apply in that situation, depending on the individual.
- Analemma_ 1y agoThe thing where dozens of them simultaneously posted “OpenAI is nothing without its people” on Twitter during the coup was so creepy, like actual Jonestown vibes. In an environment like that, there’s no way there wasn’t immense pressure to fall into line.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y agoThat seems like kind of an uncharitable take when it can otherwise be explained as collective political action. I’d see the point if it were some repeated ritual but if they just posted something on Twitter one time then it sounds more like an attempt to speak more loudly with a collective voice.
- actionfromafar 1y agoAn honest argument is that cults often have missionaries.
- m463 1y agoMissionary (from wikipedia): A missionary is a member of a religious group who is sent into an area in order to promote its faith or provide services to people, such as education, literacy, social justice, health care, and economic development. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missionary Post coup, they are both for-profit entities. So the difference seems to be that when meta releases its models (like bibles), it is promoting its faith more openly than openai, which interposes itself as an intermediary.
- pj_mukh 1y agoHonest answer*: I think building super intelligence for the company that owns and will deploy the super intelligence in service of tech's original sin (the algorithmic feed) is a 100x worse than whatever OpenAI is doing, save maybe OpenAI's defense contract, which I have no details about. Meta will try to buoy this by open-sourcing it, which, good for them, but I don't think it's enough. If Meta wants to save itself, it should re-align its business model away from the feeds. In that way, as a missionary chasing super intelligence, I'd prefer OpenAI. *because I don't have an emotional connection to OpenAI's changing corporate structure away from being a non-profit:
- eli_gottlieb 1y agoIf you have "superintelligence" and it's used to fine-tune a corporate product that preexisted it, you don't have superintelligence.
- svara 1y ago> I think building super intelligence for the company that owns and will deploy the super intelligence in service of tech's original sin (the algorithmic feed) is a 100x worse than whatever OpenAI is doing, OpenAI announced in April they'd build a social network. I think at this point it barely matters who does it, the ways in which you can make huge amounts of money from this are limited and all the major players after going to make a dash for it.
- pj_mukh 1y agoLike I told another commenter, "I am judging the two companies for what they are, not what they could be." I'm sure Sam Altman wants OpenAI to do everything, but I'm betting most of the projects will die on the vine. Social networks especially, and no one's better than Meta at manipulating feeds to juice their social networks.
- epolanski 1y ago> In that way, as a missionary chasing super intelligence, I'd prefer OpenAI. There ain't no missionary, they all doing it for the money and will apply it to anything that will turn dollars.
- delfinom 1y agoThis is just a CEO gaslighting his employees to "think of the mission" instead of paying up No different than "we are a family"
- buremba 1y agoBut “we are family”
- optimalsolver 1y agoI got all my sisters with me.
- logsr 1y ago> “I have never been more confident in our research roadmap,” he wrote. “We are making an unprecedented bet on compute, but I love that we are doing it and I'm confident we will make good use of it. Most importantly of all, I think we have the most special team and culture in the world. We have work to do to improve our culture for sure; we have been through insane hypergrowth. But we have the core right in a way that I don't think anyone else quite does, and I'm confident we can fix the problems.” tldr. knife fights in the hallways over the remaining life boats.