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These discussions increasingly remind me of gamers discussing various strategies in WoW or similar. Purportedly working strategies found by trial and error and

These discussions increasingly remind me of gamers discussing various strategies in WoW or similar. Purportedly working strategies found by trial and error and discussed in a language that is only intelligible to the in-group (because no one else is interested). We are entering a new era of gamification of programming, where the power users force their imaginary strategies on innocent people by selling them to the equally clueless and gaming-addicted management.

iammrpayments 1y ago
This is basically how online advertising works. Nobody knows how facebook ads works so you still have gurus making money selling senseless advice on how to get lower cost per impression.
coderatlarge 1y ago
i tend to share your view. but then your comment describes a lot of previous cycles of enterprise software selling. it’s just that this time is reaching a little uncomfortably into the builder’s /developer’s traditional areas of influence/control/workflow. how devs feel now is probably how others (ex csr, qa, sre) felt in the past when their managers pushed whatever tooling/practice was becoming popular or sine qua non in previous “waves”.
- sarchertech 1y ago
  This has been happening to developers for years. 25 years ago it was object oriented programming.
  - coliveira 1y ago
    The difference is that with OO there was at least hope that a well trained programmer could make it work. Nowadays, any person who understands how AI knows that's near impossible.
  - coderatlarge 1y ago
    or agile and scrums.
    - LtWorf 1y ago
      Our new CTO decided to move to agile and scrum, in an effort to reduce efficiency and morale. He doesn't even take responsibility for it, but claims the board told him to do that.
      - coderatlarge 1y ago
        is it supposedly to “improve velocity “?
        LtWorf 1y ago
        Is it supposed to add 30% overhead?
        coderatlarge 1y ago
        unless you’re exceptionally lucky!
mrits 1y ago
Tuning the JVM, compiler optimizations, design patterns, agile methodologies, seo , are just a few things that come to mind
Madmallard 1y ago
There's quite a lot science that goes into WoW strategizing at this point. People are using their thinking caps and modelling data.
dysoco 1y ago
> Purportedly working strategies found by trial and error and discussed in a language that is only intelligible to the in-group This really does sound like Computer Science since it's very beginnings. The only difference is that now it's a much more popular field, and not restricted to a few nerds sharing tips over e-mail or bbs.
- dawnofdusk 1y ago
  >This really does sound like Computer Science since it's very beginnings. Except in actual computer science you can prove that your strategies, discovered by trial and error, are actually good. Even though Dijkstra invented his eponymous algorithm by writing on a napkin, it's phrased in the language of mathematics and one can analyze quantitatively its effectiveness and trade-offs, and one can prove if it's optimal (as was done recently).
  - pbhjpbhj 1y ago
    Surely claims about context engineering can also be tested using scientific methodology?
    - fleischhauf 1y ago
      except the area is so hugely popular with people who unfortunately lack the rigor or curiosity to ask for this and blindly believe claims. for example this hugely popular repository https://github.com/x1xhlol/system-prompts-and-models-of-ai-tools https://github.com/x1xhlol/system-prompts-and-models-of-ai-t... where the authors fail to explain how the prompts are obtained and how they prove that they are valid and not a hallucination.
    - slightwinder 1y ago
      Yes, in theory. But it's testing against highly complex, ever-changing systems, where small changes can have big impact on the outcome. So it's more akin to "weak" science like psychology. And weak here means that most finding have a weak standing, because of each variable having little individual contribution in the complex setup researched, making it harder to reproduce results. Even more problematic is that too many "researchers" are just laymen, lacking a proper scientific background, and they are often just playing around with third-party-services, while delivering too much noise to the community. So in general, AI has also something like the replication crisis in its own way. But on the other side, the latest wave of AI is just some years old (3 years now?), which is not much in real scientific progress-rates.
matkoniecz 1y ago
> only intelligible to the in-group (because no one else is interested) that applies to basically any domain-specific terminology, from WoW raids through cancer research to computer science and say OpenStreetMap
tootie 1y ago
It's also the entire SEO industry
nixpulvis 1y ago
Having been a computer scientist and avid WoW player, I dislike this take. The best strategies always have a justification.

iammrpayments 1y ago

This is basically how online advertising works. Nobody knows how facebook ads works so you still have gurus making money selling senseless advice on how to get lower cost per impression.

coderatlarge 1y ago

i tend to share your view. but then your comment describes a lot of previous cycles of enterprise software selling. it’s just that this time is reaching a little uncomfortably into the builder’s /developer’s traditional areas of influence/control/workflow. how devs feel now is probably how others (ex csr, qa, sre) felt in the past when their managers pushed whatever tooling/practice was becoming popular or sine qua non in previous “waves”.

sarchertech 1y ago
This has been happening to developers for years. 25 years ago it was object oriented programming.
- coliveira 1y ago
  The difference is that with OO there was at least hope that a well trained programmer could make it work. Nowadays, any person who understands how AI knows that's near impossible.
- coderatlarge 1y ago
  or agile and scrums.
  - LtWorf 1y ago
    Our new CTO decided to move to agile and scrum, in an effort to reduce efficiency and morale. He doesn't even take responsibility for it, but claims the board told him to do that.
    - coderatlarge 1y ago
      is it supposedly to “improve velocity “?
      - LtWorf 1y ago
        Is it supposed to add 30% overhead?
        coderatlarge 1y ago
        unless you’re exceptionally lucky!

mrits 1y ago

Tuning the JVM, compiler optimizations, design patterns, agile methodologies, seo , are just a few things that come to mind

Madmallard 1y ago

There's quite a lot science that goes into WoW strategizing at this point. People are using their thinking caps and modelling data.

dysoco 1y ago

> Purportedly working strategies found by trial and error and discussed in a language that is only intelligible to the in-group This really does sound like Computer Science since it's very beginnings. The only difference is that now it's a much more popular field, and not restricted to a few nerds sharing tips over e-mail or bbs.

dawnofdusk 1y ago
>This really does sound like Computer Science since it's very beginnings. Except in actual computer science you can prove that your strategies, discovered by trial and error, are actually good. Even though Dijkstra invented his eponymous algorithm by writing on a napkin, it's phrased in the language of mathematics and one can analyze quantitatively its effectiveness and trade-offs, and one can prove if it's optimal (as was done recently).
- pbhjpbhj 1y ago
  Surely claims about context engineering can also be tested using scientific methodology?
  - fleischhauf 1y ago
    except the area is so hugely popular with people who unfortunately lack the rigor or curiosity to ask for this and blindly believe claims. for example this hugely popular repository https://github.com/x1xhlol/system-prompts-and-models-of-ai-tools https://github.com/x1xhlol/system-prompts-and-models-of-ai-t... where the authors fail to explain how the prompts are obtained and how they prove that they are valid and not a hallucination.
  - slightwinder 1y ago
    Yes, in theory. But it's testing against highly complex, ever-changing systems, where small changes can have big impact on the outcome. So it's more akin to "weak" science like psychology. And weak here means that most finding have a weak standing, because of each variable having little individual contribution in the complex setup researched, making it harder to reproduce results. Even more problematic is that too many "researchers" are just laymen, lacking a proper scientific background, and they are often just playing around with third-party-services, while delivering too much noise to the community. So in general, AI has also something like the replication crisis in its own way. But on the other side, the latest wave of AI is just some years old (3 years now?), which is not much in real scientific progress-rates.

matkoniecz 1y ago

> only intelligible to the in-group (because no one else is interested) that applies to basically any domain-specific terminology, from WoW raids through cancer research to computer science and say OpenStreetMap

tootie 1y ago

It's also the entire SEO industry

nixpulvis 1y ago

Having been a computer scientist and avid WoW player, I dislike this take. The best strategies always have a justification.