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Some context first so my opinion isn't misconstrued as as leftist stereotype. This is within context of the behavior described in the article. - I'm a Jew in

Some context first so my opinion isn't misconstrued as as leftist stereotype. This is within context of the behavior described in the article. - I'm a Jew in USA, and served in the military for more than a decade. - I used to get annoyed by the Palestinian protests I'd see in the years before this, and generally sided with Israel, and the operations its military performed in counter-Shia-militia operations etc in the region, and was outraged at the Oct 7 attacks. Israel's operations as described in the article are clear-cut war crimes. The military and civilian leaders responsible for these ROE should face something similar to the Nuremberg trials. I am embarrassed for my country's support of Israel's operations. This is large-scale, continued, intentional CIVCAS.

cropcirclbureau 1y ago
Hamas are not Shia, they're Sunni. And Shia is not some some inherently violent ideology as your usage of the word there implies. And, while I'm at it, you should know the human crimes in the Gaza strip long predate Oct 7. Chemical weapons, starvation, terror bombing, these are tactics that the IDF's deployed in short time I've been alive (21st century).
- the__alchemist 1y ago
  Tracking on the Shia; sorry about the confusion! Referring to Iran-backed ops in Syria etc.
- Cyph0n 1y ago
  The commenter is probably referring to Hezbollah and Iran. And yes, the IDF has been relying on abhorrent & violently escalatory tactics since at least 1982 (Lebanon invasion). On that note, I recently picked up an excellent book (“Our American Israel”) that dives pretty deep into the US-Israel relationship, and spends a good chunk of time on how the invasion of Lebanon was received by the West. There are definitely some parallels between 1982 and the ongoing Gaza genocide with regards to the use of violence. But the most salient point to me is that it is quite clear that Israel learned a ton on how to ensure its image in the West does not easily get tarnished going forward.
  - wakeupcaller 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - Cyph0n 1y ago
      Yeah, I know the playbook - deflect and deny, etc. 100k dead, more injured, highest number of child casualties in any modern conflict, countless statements of genocidal intent at the highest levels. But population growth is the metric we need focus on at this point, because that’s the Hasbara talking point du jour.
      - arp242 1y ago
        Also, just to add, a lot of this generic population data just doesn't factor in the current military action at all, they just operate on the last known figures. It's a complete red herring to this discussion. No one knows exactly how many people are in Gaza right now. Israeli policy is actively obstructing people from finding out. I suspect (fear) the total death toll may be well above the ~100k figure.
    - souldeux 1y ago
      [flagged]
- leptons 1y ago
  [flagged]
- michaelsshaw 1y ago
  [flagged]
wakeupcaller 1y ago
[flagged]
- selimthegrim 1y ago
  How many Muslims are writing for Haaretz?
  - avip 1y ago
    one (used to be two, but one ran away to US)
- nozzlegear 1y ago
  What do you mean by "most likely be banned soon"? Banned from where, and by who?
  - edanm 1y ago
    I think he's referring to actions taken in Israel against Haaretz, e.g. cutting off government contact from Haaretz, etc.
    - nozzlegear 1y ago
      That makes sense, thanks for the clarification.
mrcwinn 1y ago
I love the Jewish community, so I don’t say this lightly, but I view Netanyahu actions as somewhat resembling Nazi Germany in one respect (though certainly not others). He may not believe Israeli Jews have a birthright to the whole world (rather they are trying to strengthen one nation’s borders), but there is no doubt in my mind they are indiscriminately cleansing a people out of existence. That is their aim, beyond simple deterrence or defense. The October terror attack is not to be defended, but the response is disgusting behavior by the state of Israel. There’s nothing proportionate about this. Rather Israel sees this as an opportunity to strengthen its position and wipe out its enemies - and innocent men, women, and children. In the United States, we talk about Israel as if it must be protected because it’s the Middle East’s only democracy. It is not a liberal democracy. It exists only to protect the rights of one type of people with one particular type of ethnicity. In America, we wouldn’t recognize this as a democracy. For our part, it’s important to protect our own interests in the region and so yes, strange bedfellows. But given Netanyahu’s comfort with war crime, given Israel’s weak and distorted democratic institution, and given what nationalism can do to a country, we should be very careful to balance and diversify our interests. Israel in another 10 years might not be recognizable. It’s cause for alarm.
- justin66 1y ago
  > Israel in another 10 years might not be recognizable. The strange thing is, this statement held true before October 7th. Hopefully not everyone has forgotten that there were hundreds of thousands of people in the streets before the war, protesting what Netanyahu was doing to the Israeli government.
  - mrcwinn 1y ago
    Yes, I acknowledge this and it’s a good point. I just hope both sides can find peace and security. The humans of both sides deserve it. I just hope the leaders’ and politicians’ interests align with those whom they represent.
  - edanm 1y ago
    There are many protesting this government as we speak, as well.
i_love_retros 1y ago
They absolutely should face something similar to the Nuremberg trials. This is planned extermination of a group of people. Unfortunately the Israeli lobby has so much money and power they would silence anyone who says that publicly by accusing them of being antisemitic.
- kulahan 1y ago
  Arguably then, shouldn’t China be ahead of them in line for Uighur camps, and the US for the Japanese camps?
  - greazy 1y ago
    It's possible to have multiple trials occurring simultaneously. Also whataboutism is not at all helpful to the discussion at hand.
    - kulahan 1y ago
      Of course it is, so long as you don’t lazily reduce it to whataboutism. The point is that this isn’t grounds for Nuremberg-style trials, because if it was, nearly every major nation is gonna have to go through it. Like it or not, they probably won’t go along with that idea, so it’s a non-starter. You see, whataboutism is really only worth calling out in super low risk environments, because the potential future consequences are irrelevant. When we’re talking about putting the world powers on trial, the future consequences are now worth considering. Get off reddit, it’s poisoning your ability to reason.
  - grugagag 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - kulahan 1y ago
      Yes. Anyways, I’m not Israeli, I’m American, and I’m used to coming in first, so this is something of a letdown (a joke!)
  - 1y ago
doctorpangloss 1y ago
Another POV is that when you distill everyone’s experiences, not just yours, into legitimate votes, people, on both sides of this conflict, choose violence. Does the discourse you participate in achieve your goals? No, it achieves the opposite. What is this discourse? “Sharpen the fractal of demographics and opinions until you get some rare alignment between them, and you find a supposedly irrefutable and most valid position.” Can you see why winning Internet arguments and getting upvotes doesn’t translate to your goals? Of course you should share these thoughts and forums like these should publish them. But as much as I hate the Intellectual Dark Web and its philosophies, which are as ridiculous as, “you can gain power by thinking about things differently,” I think they are right that popularity contests are not the end all be all of conflict resolution.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
EasyMark 1y ago
RIght this isn't Israel as a whole, it's the crazed right wing Netanyahu government. I can understand taking out Hamas but their tactics have far superceded what is considered "not a war crime"
- michaelsshaw 1y ago
  [flagged]
edanm 1y ago
I'll provide context too - I'm a Jewish Israeli. I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. This Haaretz article is very troubling. To the extent it's accurate, there's not much question that it reflects war crimes. A few thoughts: 1. The article itself says there is an ongoing investigation into some of these accusations. I hope that, to whatever extent this is happening, it's not widespread, and anyone committing war crimes is very visibly and publicly tried in court. 2. There is clearly something broken with the GHF and the new aid delivery - dozens dead every day for weeks. We really need some answers on what's going on. 3. From Haaretz today: > The U.S.-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation on Saturday urged Israel to investigate reports that soldiers opened fire towards unarmed Palestinians near aid distribution sites, detailed in a Haaretz expose, calling the allegations "too grave to ignore," while denying that any such incidents occurred within its facilities. > GHF Interim Director John Acree stated, "There have been no incidents or fatalities at or in the immediate vicinity of any of our distribution sites."
- NohatCoder 1y ago
  The only news in the article is the way civilians are murdered. The Israeli government already kills far more people per day through deliberately induced starvation. These events are hard to believe, not because of the cruelty, but because they now happen without a shred of deniability.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- neepi 1y ago
  I don't like getting involved in political threads but on this I have to. All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides. It's difficult to tell what is fact and what is not. A lot of early reports in this war turned out to be false information and the rush to immediate news notification rather than quality journalism means that the headline changes context very quickly from the first cut to what people read and remember. (I wrote an extensive suite of software to track this) Wait and see. Do not judge too early. Take nothing as verbatim from anyone without evidence. Don't be unknowing partisans of an information war. Veracity takes time.
YZF 1y ago
I'm really surprised to hear another Jewish person speak about this in language that evokes the Nuremberg trials. The article generally describes the IDF being asked to do crowd control with lethal weapons. For the most part it also described casualties (number unclear/unknown) as unintentional consequences. I agree this does not look good but it's also not a matter of fact either. We don't know the facts, we don't know the scale, we don't know the intentions, we don't know who is making the allegations, we don't know the details. War crimes in this war should be dealt with. Nuremberg trials is really not the right analogy.
- Aeolun 1y ago
  > War crimes in this war should be dealt with. Nuremberg trials is really not the right analogy. War crimes for firing into a crowd of civilians, for both the one that ordered it, and those that executed it, should definitely be at the same levels as the nuremberg trials. The fact that it will never happen doesn’t detract from that. Happily, the ICC seems to already know so, which is why there’s warrants out for all these Isrealian leaders, no?
  - YZF 1y ago
    The ICC is a political circus and Israel is not a signatory. It has no jurisdiction. Even if Israel was a signatory the ICC should only intervene after Israel has done its own investigation and if it failed to hold the relevant standards. If there were war crimes committed then people need to be held accountable. The scale of the alleged war crimes is totally different than the crimes persecuted in Nuremberg.
    - SauciestGNU 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - YZF 1y ago
        [flagged]
    - 1y ago
xyst 1y ago
> Some context first so my opinion isn't misconstrued too late, m8 anybody with unfavorable opinions against Israeli government is a "leftist stereotype" any unfavorable opinions and facts against Israeli government gets you pinned as a "anti-semite" these days
StopDisinfo910 1y ago
No need for weird acronyms, it has been looking like a clear cut genocide for months now and Trump comments about displacement more than show he is aware and doesn’t care. It’s not even about being shameful about Israel support at that point. It’s going to be a black stain on both countries forever.
kubb 1y ago
It’s bizarre that one can use an accusation of „leftism” to deflect attention from literal atrocities. At this point people should really take a look in the mirror.

cropcirclbureau 1y ago

Hamas are not Shia, they're Sunni. And Shia is not some some inherently violent ideology as your usage of the word there implies. And, while I'm at it, you should know the human crimes in the Gaza strip long predate Oct 7. Chemical weapons, starvation, terror bombing, these are tactics that the IDF's deployed in short time I've been alive (21st century).

the__alchemist 1y ago
Tracking on the Shia; sorry about the confusion! Referring to Iran-backed ops in Syria etc.
Cyph0n 1y ago
The commenter is probably referring to Hezbollah and Iran. And yes, the IDF has been relying on abhorrent & violently escalatory tactics since at least 1982 (Lebanon invasion). On that note, I recently picked up an excellent book (“Our American Israel”) that dives pretty deep into the US-Israel relationship, and spends a good chunk of time on how the invasion of Lebanon was received by the West. There are definitely some parallels between 1982 and the ongoing Gaza genocide with regards to the use of violence. But the most salient point to me is that it is quite clear that Israel learned a ton on how to ensure its image in the West does not easily get tarnished going forward.
- wakeupcaller 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - Cyph0n 1y ago
    Yeah, I know the playbook - deflect and deny, etc. 100k dead, more injured, highest number of child casualties in any modern conflict, countless statements of genocidal intent at the highest levels. But population growth is the metric we need focus on at this point, because that’s the Hasbara talking point du jour.
    - arp242 1y ago
      Also, just to add, a lot of this generic population data just doesn't factor in the current military action at all, they just operate on the last known figures. It's a complete red herring to this discussion. No one knows exactly how many people are in Gaza right now. Israeli policy is actively obstructing people from finding out. I suspect (fear) the total death toll may be well above the ~100k figure.
  - souldeux 1y ago
    [flagged]
leptons 1y ago
[flagged]
michaelsshaw 1y ago
[flagged]

wakeupcaller 1y ago

[flagged]

selimthegrim 1y ago
How many Muslims are writing for Haaretz?
- avip 1y ago
  one (used to be two, but one ran away to US)
nozzlegear 1y ago
What do you mean by "most likely be banned soon"? Banned from where, and by who?
- edanm 1y ago
  I think he's referring to actions taken in Israel against Haaretz, e.g. cutting off government contact from Haaretz, etc.
  - nozzlegear 1y ago
    That makes sense, thanks for the clarification.

mrcwinn 1y ago

I love the Jewish community, so I don’t say this lightly, but I view Netanyahu actions as somewhat resembling Nazi Germany in one respect (though certainly not others). He may not believe Israeli Jews have a birthright to the whole world (rather they are trying to strengthen one nation’s borders), but there is no doubt in my mind they are indiscriminately cleansing a people out of existence. That is their aim, beyond simple deterrence or defense. The October terror attack is not to be defended, but the response is disgusting behavior by the state of Israel. There’s nothing proportionate about this. Rather Israel sees this as an opportunity to strengthen its position and wipe out its enemies - and innocent men, women, and children. In the United States, we talk about Israel as if it must be protected because it’s the Middle East’s only democracy. It is not a liberal democracy. It exists only to protect the rights of one type of people with one particular type of ethnicity. In America, we wouldn’t recognize this as a democracy. For our part, it’s important to protect our own interests in the region and so yes, strange bedfellows. But given Netanyahu’s comfort with war crime, given Israel’s weak and distorted democratic institution, and given what nationalism can do to a country, we should be very careful to balance and diversify our interests. Israel in another 10 years might not be recognizable. It’s cause for alarm.

justin66 1y ago
> Israel in another 10 years might not be recognizable. The strange thing is, this statement held true before October 7th. Hopefully not everyone has forgotten that there were hundreds of thousands of people in the streets before the war, protesting what Netanyahu was doing to the Israeli government.
- mrcwinn 1y ago
  Yes, I acknowledge this and it’s a good point. I just hope both sides can find peace and security. The humans of both sides deserve it. I just hope the leaders’ and politicians’ interests align with those whom they represent.
- edanm 1y ago
  There are many protesting this government as we speak, as well.

i_love_retros 1y ago

They absolutely should face something similar to the Nuremberg trials. This is planned extermination of a group of people. Unfortunately the Israeli lobby has so much money and power they would silence anyone who says that publicly by accusing them of being antisemitic.

kulahan 1y ago
Arguably then, shouldn’t China be ahead of them in line for Uighur camps, and the US for the Japanese camps?
- greazy 1y ago
  It's possible to have multiple trials occurring simultaneously. Also whataboutism is not at all helpful to the discussion at hand.
  - kulahan 1y ago
    Of course it is, so long as you don’t lazily reduce it to whataboutism. The point is that this isn’t grounds for Nuremberg-style trials, because if it was, nearly every major nation is gonna have to go through it. Like it or not, they probably won’t go along with that idea, so it’s a non-starter. You see, whataboutism is really only worth calling out in super low risk environments, because the potential future consequences are irrelevant. When we’re talking about putting the world powers on trial, the future consequences are now worth considering. Get off reddit, it’s poisoning your ability to reason.
- grugagag 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - kulahan 1y ago
    Yes. Anyways, I’m not Israeli, I’m American, and I’m used to coming in first, so this is something of a letdown (a joke!)
- 1y ago

doctorpangloss 1y ago

Another POV is that when you distill everyone’s experiences, not just yours, into legitimate votes, people, on both sides of this conflict, choose violence. Does the discourse you participate in achieve your goals? No, it achieves the opposite. What is this discourse? “Sharpen the fractal of demographics and opinions until you get some rare alignment between them, and you find a supposedly irrefutable and most valid position.” Can you see why winning Internet arguments and getting upvotes doesn’t translate to your goals? Of course you should share these thoughts and forums like these should publish them. But as much as I hate the Intellectual Dark Web and its philosophies, which are as ridiculous as, “you can gain power by thinking about things differently,” I think they are right that popularity contests are not the end all be all of conflict resolution.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

EasyMark 1y ago

RIght this isn't Israel as a whole, it's the crazed right wing Netanyahu government. I can understand taking out Hamas but their tactics have far superceded what is considered "not a war crime"

michaelsshaw 1y ago
[flagged]

edanm 1y ago

I'll provide context too - I'm a Jewish Israeli. I'd probably be considered left (or even far-left) by Israeli standards, but I'm in the "pro-Israeli" camp as conventionally understood online. This Haaretz article is very troubling. To the extent it's accurate, there's not much question that it reflects war crimes. A few thoughts: 1. The article itself says there is an ongoing investigation into some of these accusations. I hope that, to whatever extent this is happening, it's not widespread, and anyone committing war crimes is very visibly and publicly tried in court. 2. There is clearly something broken with the GHF and the new aid delivery - dozens dead every day for weeks. We really need some answers on what's going on. 3. From Haaretz today: > The U.S.-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation on Saturday urged Israel to investigate reports that soldiers opened fire towards unarmed Palestinians near aid distribution sites, detailed in a Haaretz expose, calling the allegations "too grave to ignore," while denying that any such incidents occurred within its facilities. > GHF Interim Director John Acree stated, "There have been no incidents or fatalities at or in the immediate vicinity of any of our distribution sites."

NohatCoder 1y ago
The only news in the article is the way civilians are murdered. The Israeli government already kills far more people per day through deliberately induced starvation. These events are hard to believe, not because of the cruelty, but because they now happen without a shred of deniability.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
neepi 1y ago
I don't like getting involved in political threads but on this I have to. All information presented is mostly unverified testimony printed verbatim by the press from untrustworthy sources on both sides. It's difficult to tell what is fact and what is not. A lot of early reports in this war turned out to be false information and the rush to immediate news notification rather than quality journalism means that the headline changes context very quickly from the first cut to what people read and remember. (I wrote an extensive suite of software to track this) Wait and see. Do not judge too early. Take nothing as verbatim from anyone without evidence. Don't be unknowing partisans of an information war. Veracity takes time.

YZF 1y ago

I'm really surprised to hear another Jewish person speak about this in language that evokes the Nuremberg trials. The article generally describes the IDF being asked to do crowd control with lethal weapons. For the most part it also described casualties (number unclear/unknown) as unintentional consequences. I agree this does not look good but it's also not a matter of fact either. We don't know the facts, we don't know the scale, we don't know the intentions, we don't know who is making the allegations, we don't know the details. War crimes in this war should be dealt with. Nuremberg trials is really not the right analogy.

Aeolun 1y ago
> War crimes in this war should be dealt with. Nuremberg trials is really not the right analogy. War crimes for firing into a crowd of civilians, for both the one that ordered it, and those that executed it, should definitely be at the same levels as the nuremberg trials. The fact that it will never happen doesn’t detract from that. Happily, the ICC seems to already know so, which is why there’s warrants out for all these Isrealian leaders, no?
- YZF 1y ago
  The ICC is a political circus and Israel is not a signatory. It has no jurisdiction. Even if Israel was a signatory the ICC should only intervene after Israel has done its own investigation and if it failed to hold the relevant standards. If there were war crimes committed then people need to be held accountable. The scale of the alleged war crimes is totally different than the crimes persecuted in Nuremberg.
  - SauciestGNU 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - YZF 1y ago
      [flagged]
  - 1y ago

xyst 1y ago

> Some context first so my opinion isn't misconstrued too late, m8 anybody with unfavorable opinions against Israeli government is a "leftist stereotype" any unfavorable opinions and facts against Israeli government gets you pinned as a "anti-semite" these days

StopDisinfo910 1y ago

No need for weird acronyms, it has been looking like a clear cut genocide for months now and Trump comments about displacement more than show he is aware and doesn’t care. It’s not even about being shameful about Israel support at that point. It’s going to be a black stain on both countries forever.

kubb 1y ago

It’s bizarre that one can use an accusation of „leftism” to deflect attention from literal atrocities. At this point people should really take a look in the mirror.