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wow: "Why would a clan that guarantees its own justice ever yield to a system that promises justice to its enemies? To do so is to voluntarily surrender its gre

wow: "Why would a clan that guarantees its own justice ever yield to a system that promises justice to its enemies? To do so is to voluntarily surrender its greatest strengths: the power to protect its own, punish its rivals, and maintain its position in the world. It is not merely a loss of advantage; it is the dismantling of the clan’s very foundation." White nationalism and conservatism in a nutshell...

reliabilityguy 1y ago
> White nationalism and conservatism in a nutshell... Do you think people in Africa think otherwise? I know the political climate is charged right now, but cmon people.
- gcr 1y ago
  Yes, I find folks in other countries are highly collaborative in a way that my own country (USA) often is not. I think the general sentiment in my country is driven by goal-seeking behavior dominated by individualistic fear, and I see less of that elsewhere. "Political charged"-ness is both a contributor and an outcome.
  - fidotron 1y ago
    > driven by goal-seeking behavior This is a bad thing now?
  - mantas 1y ago
    Huh? There’s plenty of deeply divided countries. Especially in Africa where many borders were drawn with no respect to ethnic and tribal situation.
    - reliabilityguy 1y ago
      Most of the borders in the Middle East and Asia are drawn without any consideration of the locals
      - Jensson 1y ago
        That is true everywhere though, locals only have a say when they rebel and throw out their overlords. It isn't like the Irish were particularly happy about England pushing them around and so on.
        reliabilityguy 1y ago
        Still. Afghanistan effectively rebelled, and yet they still use the British-drawn borders as the borders of their state.
        pakthrow 1y ago
        As a matter of power in the global scope, sure. Locally, it's messier. The British had to concede to local autonomy across the border they drew in what is now north-western Pakistan, and that formal arrangement persisted past partition (and informally persists to this day.) See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_Administered_Tribal_Areas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_Administered_Tribal_...
tolerance 1y ago
Has it occurred to you that a White nationalist and conservative may be reading that same passage and bringing whatever you are to mind? Or the entire article for that matter.
- skrebbel 1y ago
  This is not a novel insight. The attitude described is basically textbook conservatism, as per Wilhoit's law [0] Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect For a majority of HN readers (and I assume the commenter you're replying to) that in-group is their country's white majority but in other circles it's other groups. They may be groups who don't call themselves conservatives but that doesn't mean they aren't. In other words, I agree with their claim that said quote is conservatism in a nutshell. Anti-conservatism isn't rooting for some other group, it's being against this kind of tribalism wholesale. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_M._Wilhoit#Misattribution_of_Wilhoit's_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_M._Wilhoit#Misattribut...
  - luckylion 1y ago
    "Some random 59 year old from Ohio wrote this, so it's well known that that's conservativism in a nutshell" is a strange stance. > Anti-conservatism isn't rooting for some other group, it's being against this kind of tribalism wholesale. Do you have any examples of that? I've never seen someone who doesn't go mild on people who share beliefs he holds dear and judges harshly those who don't.
    - skrebbel 1y ago
      The ACLU was pretty anti-conservative in the past (before they got captured by the regressive left). Eg they helped protect the right of free expression of nazi groups, stuff like that. ps. Fair, I agree that it's weird to elevate one random blog commenter's words to a "law", though this particular one is widely quoted because, I think, it resonates and hits the nail on the head. I do feel that "tribalism" is a better word for the concept, but "conservatism" isn't far off since every conservative group I know of (at least in the US and Europe) support this kind of tribalism to a fair extent.
benreesman 1y ago
The tribes in the United States used to be called Yankee and Dixie. Now they're called other things, sometimes "red" and "blue", sometimes "MAGA" or "woke", but the geography (Mason-Dixon line), the sympathies, the prejudices, all very visible to this day. Americans have no trouble seeing tribalism or clannish behavior when its in the Middle East, or in Africa, but seem to think America is differentnt (a phenomenon that also has a name: American Exceptionalism). In my view, the Yankee/Dixie tribal cold war combined with American Exceptionalism is some pretty stiff stuff indeed.
- reliabilityguy 1y ago
  > (a phenomenon that also has a name: American Exceptionalism). I’m not American by live in the US, and I agree. This inability of Americans, on average ofc, (regardless of the degree, social status, race, etc) to accept that people in other countries may view A THING differently than what Americans think these said people think is mind boggling.
- pnutjam 1y ago
  Exactly my point, this has been going on in America for a long time.
- zmgsabst 1y ago
  Americans see tribalism just fine: we’ve been discussing since Malcolm X how the tribal sentiments of minorities are utilized by a political party in the pursuit of power. And the primary division these days is urban vs rural, with the secondary PMC vs working class. Woke vs MAGA maps onto that divide more cleanly than anything else.
- lyu07282 1y ago
  I think its much more useful to think of those divides as artificial or manufactured creations, as a tool for pacification, divide and conquer. You can also see that expressed in US foreign policy, the sunni/shia/kurdish divide in Iraq after the war, that too was an artificial creation by the US ruling class.
  - 1y ago
OrvalWintermute 1y ago
Despite your clumsy attempt to tie tribalism exclusively to white conservatives, there are many other groups far more tribalist across the spectrum.
- pnutjam 1y ago
  Who said exclusively?
  - OrvalWintermute 1y ago
    the only example being used.
- micromacrofoot 1y ago
  you guys always tell on yourselves

reliabilityguy 1y ago

> White nationalism and conservatism in a nutshell... Do you think people in Africa think otherwise? I know the political climate is charged right now, but cmon people.

gcr 1y ago
Yes, I find folks in other countries are highly collaborative in a way that my own country (USA) often is not. I think the general sentiment in my country is driven by goal-seeking behavior dominated by individualistic fear, and I see less of that elsewhere. "Political charged"-ness is both a contributor and an outcome.
- fidotron 1y ago
  > driven by goal-seeking behavior This is a bad thing now?
- mantas 1y ago
  Huh? There’s plenty of deeply divided countries. Especially in Africa where many borders were drawn with no respect to ethnic and tribal situation.
  - reliabilityguy 1y ago
    Most of the borders in the Middle East and Asia are drawn without any consideration of the locals
    - Jensson 1y ago
      That is true everywhere though, locals only have a say when they rebel and throw out their overlords. It isn't like the Irish were particularly happy about England pushing them around and so on.
      - reliabilityguy 1y ago
        Still. Afghanistan effectively rebelled, and yet they still use the British-drawn borders as the borders of their state.
        pakthrow 1y ago
        As a matter of power in the global scope, sure. Locally, it's messier. The British had to concede to local autonomy across the border they drew in what is now north-western Pakistan, and that formal arrangement persisted past partition (and informally persists to this day.) See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_Administered_Tribal_Areas https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federally_Administered_Tribal_...

tolerance 1y ago

Has it occurred to you that a White nationalist and conservative may be reading that same passage and bringing whatever you are to mind? Or the entire article for that matter.

skrebbel 1y ago
This is not a novel insight. The attitude described is basically textbook conservatism, as per Wilhoit's law [0] Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect For a majority of HN readers (and I assume the commenter you're replying to) that in-group is their country's white majority but in other circles it's other groups. They may be groups who don't call themselves conservatives but that doesn't mean they aren't. In other words, I agree with their claim that said quote is conservatism in a nutshell. Anti-conservatism isn't rooting for some other group, it's being against this kind of tribalism wholesale. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_M._Wilhoit#Misattribution_of_Wilhoit's_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_M._Wilhoit#Misattribut...
- luckylion 1y ago
  "Some random 59 year old from Ohio wrote this, so it's well known that that's conservativism in a nutshell" is a strange stance. > Anti-conservatism isn't rooting for some other group, it's being against this kind of tribalism wholesale. Do you have any examples of that? I've never seen someone who doesn't go mild on people who share beliefs he holds dear and judges harshly those who don't.
  - skrebbel 1y ago
    The ACLU was pretty anti-conservative in the past (before they got captured by the regressive left). Eg they helped protect the right of free expression of nazi groups, stuff like that. ps. Fair, I agree that it's weird to elevate one random blog commenter's words to a "law", though this particular one is widely quoted because, I think, it resonates and hits the nail on the head. I do feel that "tribalism" is a better word for the concept, but "conservatism" isn't far off since every conservative group I know of (at least in the US and Europe) support this kind of tribalism to a fair extent.

benreesman 1y ago

The tribes in the United States used to be called Yankee and Dixie. Now they're called other things, sometimes "red" and "blue", sometimes "MAGA" or "woke", but the geography (Mason-Dixon line), the sympathies, the prejudices, all very visible to this day. Americans have no trouble seeing tribalism or clannish behavior when its in the Middle East, or in Africa, but seem to think America is differentnt (a phenomenon that also has a name: American Exceptionalism). In my view, the Yankee/Dixie tribal cold war combined with American Exceptionalism is some pretty stiff stuff indeed.

reliabilityguy 1y ago
> (a phenomenon that also has a name: American Exceptionalism). I’m not American by live in the US, and I agree. This inability of Americans, on average ofc, (regardless of the degree, social status, race, etc) to accept that people in other countries may view A THING differently than what Americans think these said people think is mind boggling.
pnutjam 1y ago
Exactly my point, this has been going on in America for a long time.
zmgsabst 1y ago
Americans see tribalism just fine: we’ve been discussing since Malcolm X how the tribal sentiments of minorities are utilized by a political party in the pursuit of power. And the primary division these days is urban vs rural, with the secondary PMC vs working class. Woke vs MAGA maps onto that divide more cleanly than anything else.
lyu07282 1y ago
I think its much more useful to think of those divides as artificial or manufactured creations, as a tool for pacification, divide and conquer. You can also see that expressed in US foreign policy, the sunni/shia/kurdish divide in Iraq after the war, that too was an artificial creation by the US ruling class.
- 1y ago

OrvalWintermute 1y ago

Despite your clumsy attempt to tie tribalism exclusively to white conservatives, there are many other groups far more tribalist across the spectrum.

pnutjam 1y ago
Who said exclusively?
- OrvalWintermute 1y ago
  the only example being used.
micromacrofoot 1y ago
you guys always tell on yourselves