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I acknowledge that such telling exists, but there is still responsibility for people choosing to listen to it. Skepticism is vital. Beyond being skeptical of wh

I acknowledge that such telling exists, but there is still responsibility for people choosing to listen to it. Skepticism is vital. Beyond being skeptical of what you see, it is wild to me that we don't have approximately everyone blocking all ads, cable news, most social feeds, and other such transparently manipulative shit. Advertisement especially is literally industrialized and research-based psychological manipulation to make people do things that make no sense (see what Alfred Sloan did to GM, for an early example) — it's toxic and should be absolutely avoided.

mathgeek 1y ago
You can’t block all of it all of the time, and children (some of the most vulnerable) especially can’t.
- razakel 1y ago
  And that's why government regulation was invented.
  - datameta 1y ago
    You mean corporations regulating the government? Oh wait...
- tnel77 1y ago
  True, and this is why you shouldn’t just hand your kid an iPad and peace out. I’m all for technology and video games for my kids, but I’m vigilant to keep my kids’ eyes away from ads. As a result, my kids aren’t foaming at the mouth for the latest and greatest toys and games which was my experience as a child.
  - wobfan 1y ago
    Thing is, keeping children out of Instagram, Facebook, or whatever new social media is hyping currently will probably make them kind of weirdos in their bubble, e.g. in school. At least this would be my fear (don't have children). And good luck trying to use any of these ad-infested privacy-invading platforms while trying to avoid ads.
    - geerlingguy 1y ago
      It doesn't have to make them weird, especially if you're in a school district where there are no-phone policies. Otherwise it can be difficult, for sure.
    - allenrb 1y ago
      Learning how to stand on your own in school is good practice for doing the same thing in life. By which I’m absolutely not saying “don’t have friends” but rather, you don’t have to be like everyone else. My kids won’t be on social media until they’re not kids anymore. If none of us take a stand, nothing ever changes.
      - nradov 1y ago
        Your kids will create hidden social media accounts that you don't know about. That's what I would have done in their situation.
        olyjohn 1y ago
        Their exposure will still be much less than someone who gives them free reign and lets them sit in the livingroom staring at a phone. They won't be staring at the phone distracted while they're hanging out with the family.
        kadushka 1y ago
        Hiding things from parents is a far bigger problem than staring at a phone in a living room.
        andelink 1y ago
        No it’s not. Everyone hid things from their parents. I hid soooo much from my parents. It’s fine. It’s normal. It’s far more important to have limited exposure to modern smart phones.
  - Forgeties79 1y ago
    It takes a lot of work to be a parent and also monitor all that media consumption/stop all ads. The “average person” isn’t as tech savvy as most of us here and that stuff just doesn’t come as easily to them. For instance I am very comfortable letting my kids play video games. I play a lot myself, I can make good judgments about what is appropriate for them, what is an appropriate amount of time to play, what is good/bad behavior when playing, what systems are a good choice or if online access (if any) is appropriate. I barely need to think about these things, but for some people this is an incredibly time-consuming, intimidating task.
    - rangestransform 1y ago
      Is it not ok that parents that spend more time and effort with their kids have better outcomes than parents that spend less time? I’d rather that than have the nanny state regulate everything bad for kids out of existence; we already know what kind of civil rights violations politicians try to justify with children.
      - tr81 1y ago
        It is very hard work raising kids if you are interested in parenting and want to do your best. The thing is that not everyone's life goal is to be the best parent around. And there is pressure from the society/culture/government to reproduce for healthy economy. If we as a country want people to have more children, then we need to make their job easier. That may include censorship, age verifications, etc.
      - Forgeties79 1y ago
        You’re making this a very stark, binary choice. Reality is far more nuanced.
  - tw04 1y ago
    Half of the country is teaching their kids to take religion literally and never question it, and that any news story that you don’t like isn’t real, simply because you disagree with it. Handing over an iPad is the least of the issues facing a large portion of our youth and frankly they might be better off if their parents did sit them in front of it and walk away.
  - mrguyorama 1y ago
    One of the important purposes of a society is to improve the raising of kids who might not be raised well by their parents alone, because it is a valuable outcome to everyone. You don't choose who you get born to, so if society chooses to say "If you get born to a shitty person, you will suffer immensely and we will do nothing about it", that is a bad society. Nobody deserves to suffer due to an accident of birth. Also, "It takes a village to raise a child" is not exactly metaphorical.
- xattt 1y ago
  > children … especially can’t Worry about your own kids, teach them the right values, and use others’ imperfect knowledge to the advantage of your family.
  - suddenlybananas 1y ago
    Yeah who cares about society?
    - koakuma-chan 1y ago
      How do you propose to at least get society off TikTok or Instagram? You will only face backlash if you try to utter in that direction.
      - op00to 1y ago
        I’ve never had anyone say anything other than “yes, that seems like a good idea, I wish I could do that” when i tell them I do not have a TikTok, instagram, twitter, facebook, etc account.
        koakuma-chan 1y ago
        I guess they all need those accounts for their student visas.
    - Frogeman 1y ago
      Like virtue signalling techies are actually able to do anything about it. Fix your own house - as the previous poster said - and then worry about outside your family unit.
- rayiner 1y ago
  I’m not sure my kids have ever seen an ad except for little computer games, and they have laptops and iPads (but no network TV or cable). They are far less exposed to consumerism than when we were kids. My teenage daughter dresses like a hobo.
  - neutronicus 1y ago
    If they've seen Paw Patrol they've been exposed to ads. I don't mean "commercials" I mean that the entertainment itself is the ad - generating excitement for branded merchandise, but also normalizing the idea of kids accomplishing things and learning life lessons in 20-minute increments with the aid of a tremendous amount of stuff that they just have. Maybe they haven't but the idea extends to most kids' entertainment.
- devmor 1y ago
  Or you end up with the opposite end of the problem. I grew up in destitute poverty and was told all my childhood that credit was an evil trap - I should absolutely never use it. Well, spring forward to me starting a pretty good career as a software developer and wanting to get my first reliable car. I had no credit history and ended up with a 19% APR. That really, really sucked. It's been 10 years since then and I still get dinged for not having "enough" credit history despite having a couple car loans and several credit cards that I rotate bills on. The whole system feels like it's designed to punish anyone who doesn't fit into the role of a perfect consumer.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    You didn't get fucked with 19% apr because you had no credit history. You got fucked with 19% APR because either the parameters of the loan were really bad or there were some other circumstances. Income less existing obligations vs payment size account for the lion's share of interest rate on an auto loan or just about any other consumer loan. Credit history is massively over-sold as being impactful by the kind of idiots who live payment to payment.
    - lokar 1y ago
      I agree. My first use of credit was a car loan when I graduated. I had the offer letter to show income (I had not started yet) and some up front sign on / relocation money for the down payment. It was fine, I paid it off quickly.
    - devmor 1y ago
      No, I got 19% APR because I had no credit history. I know this because there is a big detailed letter full of reasons for your offered rate that you receive when you take out a loan. The fact that you don’t know this suggests you probably don’t know a lot about how loans work.
      - Frogeman 1y ago
        I got a car loan at a 8% rate right out of undergrad… you got hosed, maybe you were in a hyperinflationary environment though. I bet they sent you a letter telling you it was your lack of credit history. You didn’t find one of the many credit providers and have them fight to give you the best rate? Credit is an extremely elementary thing to grok in a day or so
throwaway984393 1y ago
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deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
beowulfey 1y ago
People aren't going to learn to be skeptical or think critically because we've been literally removing that from the curriculum in schools. How can someone be skeptical of something if they don't even know how to be skeptical? Social media runs rampant with a form of skepticism, but I would call that closer to paranoia than critical thinking, and I don't think it's really being helpful in the same way.
- skeeter2020 1y ago
  >> Social media runs rampant with a form of skepticism, but I would call that closer to paranoia than critical thinking For my generation this was always refered to as a "healthy skepticism", but lately I've noticed many don't necessarily see this as a good trait - an example: any sort of measured, full-picture response to the impact of AI on software development.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - johnnyanmac 1y ago
    As usual, it's a spectrum. The pettiest example is one of Reddit, where you see some random cat video, and the comments all go "this is fake" or "this is posted by a bot" or "how could you do that, you're torturing the cat!". 1. They may all be true, but yiy gotta pick your battles at this point. If you think all of reddit is bots, what use is there complaining in every post 2. Healthy skepticism is supported by observation and findings. The internet as of late has grown lazy on that overall and people just throw out accusations without explanation. That definitely comes more off as paranoia at best, or bad faith at worst.
- RankingMember 1y ago
  I see this as directly correlated with the gradual denigration of liberal arts education, a core tenet of which is critical thinking.
  - nradov 1y ago
_DeadFred_ 1y ago
There are MILLIONs of human years of effort, by experts at manipulating people, put into making people feel this way. Saying bro, why can't your willpower overcome MILLIONS of years of experts trying to manipulate you is a pretty weak argument. It's basically the same as saying 'why can't you take on the top UFC fighters?' at this point. There is a battle to squeeze everything possible out of the sheep on one side, on the other side is us sheep that just want to chill, enjoy life a little. The sheep are f'd.
- ndriscoll 1y ago
  GP isn't saying "why can't you take on top UFC fighters?" They're saying "why would you try to take on top UFC fighters?" It's exactly that one-sided battle that makes it so avoiding the engagement is necessary. A lot of effort is no doubt spent developing psychological weapons to use against me. Fortunately there are very few channels for any of them to use to reach me.
GuinansEyebrows 1y ago
> but there is still responsibility for people choosing to listen to it yes, sure, this is easy to say, but hundreds of billions of dollars and uncountable person-hours go into this manipulation machine, and many peoples' lives and livelihoods depend on maintaining it. it's a lot to ask of every individual to be solely responsible for the negative impacts of advertising when we all have lives we want to live. i'm not saying personal responsibility doesn't play a part, but we shouldn't atomize - we should be organized and wield regulation more effectively against the profit motive.

mathgeek 1y ago

You can’t block all of it all of the time, and children (some of the most vulnerable) especially can’t.

razakel 1y ago
And that's why government regulation was invented.
- datameta 1y ago
  You mean corporations regulating the government? Oh wait...
tnel77 1y ago
True, and this is why you shouldn’t just hand your kid an iPad and peace out. I’m all for technology and video games for my kids, but I’m vigilant to keep my kids’ eyes away from ads. As a result, my kids aren’t foaming at the mouth for the latest and greatest toys and games which was my experience as a child.
- wobfan 1y ago
  Thing is, keeping children out of Instagram, Facebook, or whatever new social media is hyping currently will probably make them kind of weirdos in their bubble, e.g. in school. At least this would be my fear (don't have children). And good luck trying to use any of these ad-infested privacy-invading platforms while trying to avoid ads.
  - geerlingguy 1y ago
    It doesn't have to make them weird, especially if you're in a school district where there are no-phone policies. Otherwise it can be difficult, for sure.
  - allenrb 1y ago
    Learning how to stand on your own in school is good practice for doing the same thing in life. By which I’m absolutely not saying “don’t have friends” but rather, you don’t have to be like everyone else. My kids won’t be on social media until they’re not kids anymore. If none of us take a stand, nothing ever changes.
    - nradov 1y ago
      Your kids will create hidden social media accounts that you don't know about. That's what I would have done in their situation.
      - olyjohn 1y ago
        Their exposure will still be much less than someone who gives them free reign and lets them sit in the livingroom staring at a phone. They won't be staring at the phone distracted while they're hanging out with the family.
        kadushka 1y ago
        Hiding things from parents is a far bigger problem than staring at a phone in a living room.
        andelink 1y ago
        No it’s not. Everyone hid things from their parents. I hid soooo much from my parents. It’s fine. It’s normal. It’s far more important to have limited exposure to modern smart phones.
- Forgeties79 1y ago
  It takes a lot of work to be a parent and also monitor all that media consumption/stop all ads. The “average person” isn’t as tech savvy as most of us here and that stuff just doesn’t come as easily to them. For instance I am very comfortable letting my kids play video games. I play a lot myself, I can make good judgments about what is appropriate for them, what is an appropriate amount of time to play, what is good/bad behavior when playing, what systems are a good choice or if online access (if any) is appropriate. I barely need to think about these things, but for some people this is an incredibly time-consuming, intimidating task.
  - rangestransform 1y ago
    Is it not ok that parents that spend more time and effort with their kids have better outcomes than parents that spend less time? I’d rather that than have the nanny state regulate everything bad for kids out of existence; we already know what kind of civil rights violations politicians try to justify with children.
    - tr81 1y ago
      It is very hard work raising kids if you are interested in parenting and want to do your best. The thing is that not everyone's life goal is to be the best parent around. And there is pressure from the society/culture/government to reproduce for healthy economy. If we as a country want people to have more children, then we need to make their job easier. That may include censorship, age verifications, etc.
    - Forgeties79 1y ago
      You’re making this a very stark, binary choice. Reality is far more nuanced.
- tw04 1y ago
  Half of the country is teaching their kids to take religion literally and never question it, and that any news story that you don’t like isn’t real, simply because you disagree with it. Handing over an iPad is the least of the issues facing a large portion of our youth and frankly they might be better off if their parents did sit them in front of it and walk away.
- mrguyorama 1y ago
  One of the important purposes of a society is to improve the raising of kids who might not be raised well by their parents alone, because it is a valuable outcome to everyone. You don't choose who you get born to, so if society chooses to say "If you get born to a shitty person, you will suffer immensely and we will do nothing about it", that is a bad society. Nobody deserves to suffer due to an accident of birth. Also, "It takes a village to raise a child" is not exactly metaphorical.
xattt 1y ago
> children … especially can’t Worry about your own kids, teach them the right values, and use others’ imperfect knowledge to the advantage of your family.
- suddenlybananas 1y ago
  Yeah who cares about society?
  - koakuma-chan 1y ago
    How do you propose to at least get society off TikTok or Instagram? You will only face backlash if you try to utter in that direction.
    - op00to 1y ago
      I’ve never had anyone say anything other than “yes, that seems like a good idea, I wish I could do that” when i tell them I do not have a TikTok, instagram, twitter, facebook, etc account.
      - koakuma-chan 1y ago
        I guess they all need those accounts for their student visas.
  - Frogeman 1y ago
    Like virtue signalling techies are actually able to do anything about it. Fix your own house - as the previous poster said - and then worry about outside your family unit.
rayiner 1y ago
I’m not sure my kids have ever seen an ad except for little computer games, and they have laptops and iPads (but no network TV or cable). They are far less exposed to consumerism than when we were kids. My teenage daughter dresses like a hobo.
- neutronicus 1y ago
  If they've seen Paw Patrol they've been exposed to ads. I don't mean "commercials" I mean that the entertainment itself is the ad - generating excitement for branded merchandise, but also normalizing the idea of kids accomplishing things and learning life lessons in 20-minute increments with the aid of a tremendous amount of stuff that they just have. Maybe they haven't but the idea extends to most kids' entertainment.
devmor 1y ago
Or you end up with the opposite end of the problem. I grew up in destitute poverty and was told all my childhood that credit was an evil trap - I should absolutely never use it. Well, spring forward to me starting a pretty good career as a software developer and wanting to get my first reliable car. I had no credit history and ended up with a 19% APR. That really, really sucked. It's been 10 years since then and I still get dinged for not having "enough" credit history despite having a couple car loans and several credit cards that I rotate bills on. The whole system feels like it's designed to punish anyone who doesn't fit into the role of a perfect consumer.
- potato3732842 1y ago
  You didn't get fucked with 19% apr because you had no credit history. You got fucked with 19% APR because either the parameters of the loan were really bad or there were some other circumstances. Income less existing obligations vs payment size account for the lion's share of interest rate on an auto loan or just about any other consumer loan. Credit history is massively over-sold as being impactful by the kind of idiots who live payment to payment.
  - lokar 1y ago
    I agree. My first use of credit was a car loan when I graduated. I had the offer letter to show income (I had not started yet) and some up front sign on / relocation money for the down payment. It was fine, I paid it off quickly.
  - devmor 1y ago
    No, I got 19% APR because I had no credit history. I know this because there is a big detailed letter full of reasons for your offered rate that you receive when you take out a loan. The fact that you don’t know this suggests you probably don’t know a lot about how loans work.
    - Frogeman 1y ago
      I got a car loan at a 8% rate right out of undergrad… you got hosed, maybe you were in a hyperinflationary environment though. I bet they sent you a letter telling you it was your lack of credit history. You didn’t find one of the many credit providers and have them fight to give you the best rate? Credit is an extremely elementary thing to grok in a day or so

throwaway984393 1y ago

[dead]

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

beowulfey 1y ago

People aren't going to learn to be skeptical or think critically because we've been literally removing that from the curriculum in schools. How can someone be skeptical of something if they don't even know how to be skeptical? Social media runs rampant with a form of skepticism, but I would call that closer to paranoia than critical thinking, and I don't think it's really being helpful in the same way.

skeeter2020 1y ago
>> Social media runs rampant with a form of skepticism, but I would call that closer to paranoia than critical thinking For my generation this was always refered to as a "healthy skepticism", but lately I've noticed many don't necessarily see this as a good trait - an example: any sort of measured, full-picture response to the impact of AI on software development.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  As usual, it's a spectrum. The pettiest example is one of Reddit, where you see some random cat video, and the comments all go "this is fake" or "this is posted by a bot" or "how could you do that, you're torturing the cat!". 1. They may all be true, but yiy gotta pick your battles at this point. If you think all of reddit is bots, what use is there complaining in every post 2. Healthy skepticism is supported by observation and findings. The internet as of late has grown lazy on that overall and people just throw out accusations without explanation. That definitely comes more off as paranoia at best, or bad faith at worst.
RankingMember 1y ago
I see this as directly correlated with the gradual denigration of liberal arts education, a core tenet of which is critical thinking.
- nradov 1y ago

_DeadFred_ 1y ago

There are MILLIONs of human years of effort, by experts at manipulating people, put into making people feel this way. Saying bro, why can't your willpower overcome MILLIONS of years of experts trying to manipulate you is a pretty weak argument. It's basically the same as saying 'why can't you take on the top UFC fighters?' at this point. There is a battle to squeeze everything possible out of the sheep on one side, on the other side is us sheep that just want to chill, enjoy life a little. The sheep are f'd.

ndriscoll 1y ago
GP isn't saying "why can't you take on top UFC fighters?" They're saying "why would you try to take on top UFC fighters?" It's exactly that one-sided battle that makes it so avoiding the engagement is necessary. A lot of effort is no doubt spent developing psychological weapons to use against me. Fortunately there are very few channels for any of them to use to reach me.

GuinansEyebrows 1y ago

> but there is still responsibility for people choosing to listen to it yes, sure, this is easy to say, but hundreds of billions of dollars and uncountable person-hours go into this manipulation machine, and many peoples' lives and livelihoods depend on maintaining it. it's a lot to ask of every individual to be solely responsible for the negative impacts of advertising when we all have lives we want to live. i'm not saying personal responsibility doesn't play a part, but we shouldn't atomize - we should be organized and wield regulation more effectively against the profit motive.