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If the speeding is only going with the flow of traffic, that's not a huge deal imo. The left turn fuckup is really bad though, as is the instance of the robota

If the speeding is only going with the flow of traffic, that's not a huge deal imo. The left turn fuckup is really bad though, as is the instance of the robotaxi dropping someone off in the middle of an intersection after they hit the "drop off earlier" button: https://sh.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/1liku3o/tesla_robotaxi_drops_off_influencers_in_the/ https://sh.reddit.com/r/SelfDrivingCars/comments/1liku3o/tes...

andrewmcwatters 1y ago
Nah, I want a system that obeys the law. I don't need software breaking the law on my behalf. Waymo has proven that it's an exceptional ride experience when you have an automated driver that is cautious and obeys the law, which is more than what 99% of drivers do in the Phoenix metro. Go count how many people obey traffic laws for fun. And guess who's at fault when you're caught? Edit: No, crossing double-lines to avoid obstructions isn't breaking the law. People in the Comma Discord bring up these weird edge cases that are outlined in law, too. No, you're never forced to break the law when driving. You can downvote me all you want. You're wrong. The police would find you wrong, a traffic law court would find you wrong. People are animals and don't want to obey the law. Just obey the law. Drive the speed limit, keep right unless passing or turning left.
- nradov 1y ago
  There are circumstances where breaking the law is necessary, like crossing a double yellow line to safely get around a lane obstruction.
  - nash 1y ago
    Generally that's not actually breaking the law. Avoiding accidents, following reasonable directions from road crews and the like explicitly override other laws.
    - nradov 1y ago
      How do Tesla Robotaxis handle unreasonable directions from road crews? The other day there was a crew patching potholes in my neighborhood and one worker was standing there giving vague hand signals with no sign or anything. I just ignored him and went around when it seemed safe.
      - jasonlotito 1y ago
        > How do Tesla Robotaxis handle unreasonable directions from road crews? Legally.
      - reaperducer 1y ago
        How do Tesla Robotaxis handle unreasonable directions from road crews? The law where I am is that human traffic directors (police, sheriffs, construction crews, etc) take precedent over what's in the book. If they didn't, nobody could ever get around a fire truck at a fire. I just ignored him and went around when it seemed safe. And that's where you get a ticket. Plenty of cops around here sitting at the exit of construction zones waiting for people just like you.
        nradov 1y ago
        Nah. If there was a cop around he would have made sure the road crew had actual signs.
        reaperducer 1y ago
        How?
        nradov 1y ago
        By telling them what to do.
        reaperducer 1y ago
  - moralestapia 1y ago
    Excuse me, what? I get that nobody's perfect and you might do it by mistake (going 35 on a unmarked road that was 30 max or something), but the way you write your comment makes it sound like it's something one does in a deliberate way? Drivers like that shouldn't be on the road.
    - nradov 1y ago
      Excuse me, what? If there's an obstruction in the middle of my lane then obviously I'm going to deliberately go around it. Have you ever driven a car?
  - beAbU 1y ago
    > like crossing a double yellow line to safely get around a lane obstruction That's not breaking the law though.
duxup 1y ago
"We're at the corner" Um ... kinda...
energywut 1y ago
Watching one of the videos, the car went 38/39 in a 30, and was the only car nearby. It was not keeping pace with other vehicles in its lane. It seemed like a lot of the roads it was driving on were signed 35 or 40 (it was a lot of stroads), but a few were signed 30, which it just flatly ignored.
- mslansn 1y ago
  If it was the only car nearby does it matter that it went 39 in a 30?
  - vel0city 1y ago
    Yes, the car should be traveling the speed limit if it is the only car around and conditions allow it. It should not be speeding by default on its own.
    - mslansn 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - tweetle_beetle 1y ago
        Ok, but who pays the fine, or has their license revoked when a robotaxi drives over the speed limit to fit in with humans?
      - reaperducer 1y ago
        Speed limits are artificially low because they know drivers will not obey them. Entirely false. Speed limits are determined by dozens of factors, including traffic studies, noise studies, and other needs. There's an entire industry for this. Go to a city council meeting sometime and you'll learn all about it.
        mslansn 1y ago
        If I wanted to learn about something a city council meeting would be the last place I would go to.
crazygringo 1y ago
> If the speeding is only going with the flow of traffic, that's not a huge deal imo. If it's intentionally programmed to violate speed limits, then sure. If it's intending to follow speed limits but is failing, then that's terrifying, because where is its wrong information coming from, and how catastrophic could the errors be?
rs186 1y ago
True, but AFAIK Waymo strictly follows speed limits.
- dzhiurgis 1y ago
  Which is why it couldn’t use highways for ages, as otherwise they’d been honked off the road
  - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
    > otherwise they’d been honked off the road Slowing down surrounding traffic to the speed limit would be an amazing safety multiplier for AVs.
    - potato3732842 1y ago
      It takes "I'm a good driver, all my accidents have been other people's fault" type ignorance to say such a thing. Have you ever followed a police escorted wide load, snow plow or other road obstruction to that effect? The sort of tightly packed surging traffic that follows those rolling road blocks is far, far, less safe than the baseline for the same road/traffic conditions sans the rolling roadblock. This is readily apparent to anyone who has ever encountered it.
      - seanmcdirmid 1y ago
        Pace cars are a thing. Traffic calming works by a similar principle. Automated traffic calming would be far from unprecedented. If it doesn't work out, it isn't because of the AVs following the speed limit, but the road and its capacity requirements are not actually fitted to that speed limit.
      - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
        > It takes "I'm a good driver, all my accidents have been other people's fault" type ignorance No, it takes a person who hasn’t had an accident outside a parking lot in decades. Speed limits save lives. I am not an angel when it comes to them. And we definitely have an issue with stupid speed limits in towns as revenue traps. But on freeways? 65 to 80 mph is plenty. > tightly packed surging traffic that follows those rolling road blocks is far, far, less safe than the baseline for the same road/traffic conditions sans the rolling roadblock Totally false. Crashes decrease with congestion [2][3]. And mortality in a crash is essentially governed by speed [1]. A surging bolus is only as dangerous as its speed. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29323934/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29323934/ [2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10149483/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10149483/ [3] https://www.roads.maryland.gov/OPR_Research/MD-03-SP308B46-Congestion-Vs-Accidents-Report.pdf https://www.roads.maryland.gov/OPR_Research/MD-03-SP308B46-C...
jstummbillig 1y ago
I think there are two distinct types of "bad" here, and to me, one is way more interesting than the other. If we mean, that this is dangerous: Yes, of course. It's an obvious, somewhat dangerous error (and I say "somewhat", only because I assume currently everyone participating is cognizant of the fact, that this is in some kind of testing stage) But I think the more interesting question is: How quickly can this issue (and others like it) be fixed? If the answer at this point is "we will have to retrain the entire model and just hope for the best" that sounds, like, really bad.

andrewmcwatters 1y ago

Nah, I want a system that obeys the law. I don't need software breaking the law on my behalf. Waymo has proven that it's an exceptional ride experience when you have an automated driver that is cautious and obeys the law, which is more than what 99% of drivers do in the Phoenix metro. Go count how many people obey traffic laws for fun. And guess who's at fault when you're caught? Edit: No, crossing double-lines to avoid obstructions isn't breaking the law. People in the Comma Discord bring up these weird edge cases that are outlined in law, too. No, you're never forced to break the law when driving. You can downvote me all you want. You're wrong. The police would find you wrong, a traffic law court would find you wrong. People are animals and don't want to obey the law. Just obey the law. Drive the speed limit, keep right unless passing or turning left.

nradov 1y ago
There are circumstances where breaking the law is necessary, like crossing a double yellow line to safely get around a lane obstruction.
- nash 1y ago
  Generally that's not actually breaking the law. Avoiding accidents, following reasonable directions from road crews and the like explicitly override other laws.
  - nradov 1y ago
    How do Tesla Robotaxis handle unreasonable directions from road crews? The other day there was a crew patching potholes in my neighborhood and one worker was standing there giving vague hand signals with no sign or anything. I just ignored him and went around when it seemed safe.
    - jasonlotito 1y ago
      > How do Tesla Robotaxis handle unreasonable directions from road crews? Legally.
    - reaperducer 1y ago
      How do Tesla Robotaxis handle unreasonable directions from road crews? The law where I am is that human traffic directors (police, sheriffs, construction crews, etc) take precedent over what's in the book. If they didn't, nobody could ever get around a fire truck at a fire. I just ignored him and went around when it seemed safe. And that's where you get a ticket. Plenty of cops around here sitting at the exit of construction zones waiting for people just like you.
      - nradov 1y ago
        Nah. If there was a cop around he would have made sure the road crew had actual signs.
        reaperducer 1y ago
        How?
        nradov 1y ago
        By telling them what to do.
        reaperducer 1y ago
- moralestapia 1y ago
  Excuse me, what? I get that nobody's perfect and you might do it by mistake (going 35 on a unmarked road that was 30 max or something), but the way you write your comment makes it sound like it's something one does in a deliberate way? Drivers like that shouldn't be on the road.
  - nradov 1y ago
    Excuse me, what? If there's an obstruction in the middle of my lane then obviously I'm going to deliberately go around it. Have you ever driven a car?
- beAbU 1y ago
  > like crossing a double yellow line to safely get around a lane obstruction That's not breaking the law though.

duxup 1y ago

"We're at the corner" Um ... kinda...

energywut 1y ago

Watching one of the videos, the car went 38/39 in a 30, and was the only car nearby. It was not keeping pace with other vehicles in its lane. It seemed like a lot of the roads it was driving on were signed 35 or 40 (it was a lot of stroads), but a few were signed 30, which it just flatly ignored.

mslansn 1y ago
If it was the only car nearby does it matter that it went 39 in a 30?
- vel0city 1y ago
  Yes, the car should be traveling the speed limit if it is the only car around and conditions allow it. It should not be speeding by default on its own.
  - mslansn 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - tweetle_beetle 1y ago
      Ok, but who pays the fine, or has their license revoked when a robotaxi drives over the speed limit to fit in with humans?
    - reaperducer 1y ago
      Speed limits are artificially low because they know drivers will not obey them. Entirely false. Speed limits are determined by dozens of factors, including traffic studies, noise studies, and other needs. There's an entire industry for this. Go to a city council meeting sometime and you'll learn all about it.
      - mslansn 1y ago
        If I wanted to learn about something a city council meeting would be the last place I would go to.

crazygringo 1y ago

> If the speeding is only going with the flow of traffic, that's not a huge deal imo. If it's intentionally programmed to violate speed limits, then sure. If it's intending to follow speed limits but is failing, then that's terrifying, because where is its wrong information coming from, and how catastrophic could the errors be?

rs186 1y ago

True, but AFAIK Waymo strictly follows speed limits.

dzhiurgis 1y ago
Which is why it couldn’t use highways for ages, as otherwise they’d been honked off the road
- JumpCrisscross 1y ago
  > otherwise they’d been honked off the road Slowing down surrounding traffic to the speed limit would be an amazing safety multiplier for AVs.
  - potato3732842 1y ago
    It takes "I'm a good driver, all my accidents have been other people's fault" type ignorance to say such a thing. Have you ever followed a police escorted wide load, snow plow or other road obstruction to that effect? The sort of tightly packed surging traffic that follows those rolling road blocks is far, far, less safe than the baseline for the same road/traffic conditions sans the rolling roadblock. This is readily apparent to anyone who has ever encountered it.
    - seanmcdirmid 1y ago
      Pace cars are a thing. Traffic calming works by a similar principle. Automated traffic calming would be far from unprecedented. If it doesn't work out, it isn't because of the AVs following the speed limit, but the road and its capacity requirements are not actually fitted to that speed limit.
    - JumpCrisscross 1y ago
      > It takes "I'm a good driver, all my accidents have been other people's fault" type ignorance No, it takes a person who hasn’t had an accident outside a parking lot in decades. Speed limits save lives. I am not an angel when it comes to them. And we definitely have an issue with stupid speed limits in towns as revenue traps. But on freeways? 65 to 80 mph is plenty. > tightly packed surging traffic that follows those rolling road blocks is far, far, less safe than the baseline for the same road/traffic conditions sans the rolling roadblock Totally false. Crashes decrease with congestion [2][3]. And mortality in a crash is essentially governed by speed [1]. A surging bolus is only as dangerous as its speed. [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29323934/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29323934/ [2] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10149483/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10149483/ [3] https://www.roads.maryland.gov/OPR_Research/MD-03-SP308B46-Congestion-Vs-Accidents-Report.pdf https://www.roads.maryland.gov/OPR_Research/MD-03-SP308B46-C...

jstummbillig 1y ago

I think there are two distinct types of "bad" here, and to me, one is way more interesting than the other. If we mean, that this is dangerous: Yes, of course. It's an obvious, somewhat dangerous error (and I say "somewhat", only because I assume currently everyone participating is cognizant of the fact, that this is in some kind of testing stage) But I think the more interesting question is: How quickly can this issue (and others like it) be fixed? If the answer at this point is "we will have to retrain the entire model and just hope for the best" that sounds, like, really bad.