4 ms·

Basically correct. I guess my point is Patrick could have saved a lot of typing and simply wrote "Have one or more competing offers."

jt2190 1y ago
Do you consider yourself an _excellent_ negotiator already? It really feels like you’re trying to suggest that negotiation can’t ever work for anyone except a handful of celebrities, even for those who are excellent negotiators. Someone’s already asking about your BATNA, and I’m wondering if you negotiate all benefits (amount of time off for example) since your story focused on salary alone.
- ryandrake 1y ago
  Based on my results, I am clearly not a skilled negotiator! I have found most companies to be inflexible around everything, from salary to equity to vacation time to health benefits to 401(k). The package is what it is, and if you don't want to take it, you can leave it.
  - lazide 1y ago
    Sure, because you personally aren’t in a place you can just leave it. If you don’t have a good competing alternative offer/option, you’re not negotiating, you’re begging. And chances are, they have alternatives.
  - jt2190 1y ago
    Interesting. I think there’s definitely a “meta-game” that negotiation requires you to prepare in advance if you want success. For example, knowing if the job opening is in a “cost center” or “revenue center” for the company, or how the job is funded. Clearly a well-funded department can offer more salary, and a revenue increasing job can pay more than a cost-savings one, since revenue has no upper bound and savings is bounded. Companies that have high revenue per developer can pay more in general. Companies that have to compete globally for talent have pay more than those that only have to compete in a local market. I can go on but you get the idea.
  - danjl 1y ago
    We're you willing to walk away if you didn't get what you wanted? Or were you just hoping they would capitulate? IMHO, The key to negotiating is knowing where your red line is, and being willing to walk away if you don't reach it.
    - systemf_omega 1y ago
      I can imagine many people's view of negotiation is asking "Can I have X" and when they get rejected just moving on with "Ok that's fine".
  - sokoloff 1y ago
    As a hiring manager and someone who’s an employee rep on the 401k committee, I can’t even imagine how I could customize the 401k for an individual candidate. I think the same is true for health insurance. If someone came with that request, I’d probably be amused but I doubt I could change anything.
  - darkerside 1y ago
    Something is going on here. If the company and team is excited about hiring you, there will typically be some flexibility unless you are already coming in at the top of their range, or above. In which case they should be telling you so, and even somewhat apologetic about it. If that's not the case, they are not excited about you (in which case, why are they hiring you?), or you have not made your case firmly and clearly.
k__ 1y ago
I mean, they don't know AND you only need one "yes"...
atrettel 1y ago
In my experience, some employers don't even care if you have a competing offer. They will change nothing. I've written about this before [1]. To me, the best thing about having multiple offers is that you can at least make a choice. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43598192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43598192
- zem 1y ago
  honestly I have no problem with that if they are firm about not negotiating - I actually respect that stance greatly and see it as a green flag. it just bothers me if I am shortchanging myself working somewhere that other people have successfully negotiated higher salaries for and I have not.
  - aianus 1y ago
    This just means you'll be working with people that had no other option. Massive red flag.
    - zem 1y ago
      or that i'll be working with people who also appreciate a culture where your salary is not based on your negotiation skills, and you don't have to worry about making less than someone doing the same job as you simply because you were less convincing or had less leverage when you joined.
      - esseph 1y ago
        Seems like a fight against reality
        heylook 1y ago
        There are plenty of places where this is the standard. Anecdote time: I joined a not-quite-FAANG in an acquihire. Some of my teammates negotiated hard on the way in; I did not. After I got into management, I learned that they're perfectly willing to give you an extra $10k on your initial salary offer, but then you just get a lower raise after the first year, so everyone ends up in the same spot almost immediately anyway. The $10k was a rounding error in the total comp, and anyway they preferred to have steady employees who could be happy in a good situation for many years, rather than mercenaries who were more likely to chase vanity metrics and leave half-finished projects when they left in 18 months. Equity comp was generous and non-negotiable.
roncesvalles 1y ago
In my experience, the proclivity of a company to negotiate entirely depends on how quickly they need to hire someone. If the requirement is to scale up immediately, once at the offer stage you're the fastest person on the planet who can start working in the role, and this gives you significant leverage. If the company can afford to onboard someone any time in the next few months, they don't need to negotiate. They just need to keep the pipeline flowing until some candidate accepts their lowball number.
pcl 1y ago
I don’t get the impression that his brand is based on conciseness.
fuzztester 1y ago
Yes, BATNA is a fanciful and useless buzzword. I saw it when it was first mentioned here, many years ago, and thought the same then. Though yours is good, it can be even simpler: Be ready to say no.

jt2190 1y ago

Do you consider yourself an _excellent_ negotiator already? It really feels like you’re trying to suggest that negotiation can’t ever work for anyone except a handful of celebrities, even for those who are excellent negotiators. Someone’s already asking about your BATNA, and I’m wondering if you negotiate all benefits (amount of time off for example) since your story focused on salary alone.

ryandrake 1y ago
Based on my results, I am clearly not a skilled negotiator! I have found most companies to be inflexible around everything, from salary to equity to vacation time to health benefits to 401(k). The package is what it is, and if you don't want to take it, you can leave it.
- lazide 1y ago
  Sure, because you personally aren’t in a place you can just leave it. If you don’t have a good competing alternative offer/option, you’re not negotiating, you’re begging. And chances are, they have alternatives.
- jt2190 1y ago
  Interesting. I think there’s definitely a “meta-game” that negotiation requires you to prepare in advance if you want success. For example, knowing if the job opening is in a “cost center” or “revenue center” for the company, or how the job is funded. Clearly a well-funded department can offer more salary, and a revenue increasing job can pay more than a cost-savings one, since revenue has no upper bound and savings is bounded. Companies that have high revenue per developer can pay more in general. Companies that have to compete globally for talent have pay more than those that only have to compete in a local market. I can go on but you get the idea.
- danjl 1y ago
  We're you willing to walk away if you didn't get what you wanted? Or were you just hoping they would capitulate? IMHO, The key to negotiating is knowing where your red line is, and being willing to walk away if you don't reach it.
  - systemf_omega 1y ago
    I can imagine many people's view of negotiation is asking "Can I have X" and when they get rejected just moving on with "Ok that's fine".
- sokoloff 1y ago
  As a hiring manager and someone who’s an employee rep on the 401k committee, I can’t even imagine how I could customize the 401k for an individual candidate. I think the same is true for health insurance. If someone came with that request, I’d probably be amused but I doubt I could change anything.
- darkerside 1y ago
  Something is going on here. If the company and team is excited about hiring you, there will typically be some flexibility unless you are already coming in at the top of their range, or above. In which case they should be telling you so, and even somewhat apologetic about it. If that's not the case, they are not excited about you (in which case, why are they hiring you?), or you have not made your case firmly and clearly.

k__ 1y ago

I mean, they don't know AND you only need one "yes"...

atrettel 1y ago

In my experience, some employers don't even care if you have a competing offer. They will change nothing. I've written about this before [1]. To me, the best thing about having multiple offers is that you can at least make a choice. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43598192 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43598192

zem 1y ago
honestly I have no problem with that if they are firm about not negotiating - I actually respect that stance greatly and see it as a green flag. it just bothers me if I am shortchanging myself working somewhere that other people have successfully negotiated higher salaries for and I have not.
- aianus 1y ago
  This just means you'll be working with people that had no other option. Massive red flag.
  - zem 1y ago
    or that i'll be working with people who also appreciate a culture where your salary is not based on your negotiation skills, and you don't have to worry about making less than someone doing the same job as you simply because you were less convincing or had less leverage when you joined.
    - esseph 1y ago
      Seems like a fight against reality
      - heylook 1y ago
        There are plenty of places where this is the standard. Anecdote time: I joined a not-quite-FAANG in an acquihire. Some of my teammates negotiated hard on the way in; I did not. After I got into management, I learned that they're perfectly willing to give you an extra $10k on your initial salary offer, but then you just get a lower raise after the first year, so everyone ends up in the same spot almost immediately anyway. The $10k was a rounding error in the total comp, and anyway they preferred to have steady employees who could be happy in a good situation for many years, rather than mercenaries who were more likely to chase vanity metrics and leave half-finished projects when they left in 18 months. Equity comp was generous and non-negotiable.

roncesvalles 1y ago

In my experience, the proclivity of a company to negotiate entirely depends on how quickly they need to hire someone. If the requirement is to scale up immediately, once at the offer stage you're the fastest person on the planet who can start working in the role, and this gives you significant leverage. If the company can afford to onboard someone any time in the next few months, they don't need to negotiate. They just need to keep the pipeline flowing until some candidate accepts their lowball number.

pcl 1y ago

I don’t get the impression that his brand is based on conciseness.

fuzztester 1y ago

Yes, BATNA is a fanciful and useless buzzword. I saw it when it was first mentioned here, many years ago, and thought the same then. Though yours is good, it can be even simpler: Be ready to say no.