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Most relevant part: > BYD’s solid-state EV batteries set a record by gaining 1,500 km (932 miles) range in just 12 minutes of charging. > The test charged the

by awongh 1y ago

Most relevant part: > BYD’s solid-state EV batteries set a record by gaining 1,500 km (932 miles) range in just 12 minutes of charging. > The test charged the battery to just 80%, meaning total EV range could reach upwards of 1,875 km (1,165 miles). Keep in mind, that is CLTC range. On the EPA scale, it would be closer to 1,300 km (808 miles) Is this true? How quickly will other companies be making these types of batteries? Is there some reason why solid state batteries seem to be being deployed in cars sooner than in phones?

dzhiurgis 1y ago
Volumetric vs gravimetric density. Cars have heaps of space but smallish weight budget. Phones are opposite.
MostlyStable 1y ago
For the last part, my guess is that the advantages are much more valuable in an EV than they are in a phone (where batteries are mostly fine. While longer life and faster charging are always nice to have:they are just that: nice to have), so if you are A) production limited and B) they are still more expensive (the article states they expect them to be price-comparable by the end of the decade), then they probably aren't worth it in a phone (yet). When price comes down and production comes up (assuming those things happen), then I would expect them to start appearing in phones as well.
- Dylan16807 1y ago
  That logic seems crazy to me. Extra hundreds of miles are also just nice to have, and with the same material that goes into a 500kg car pack you could make 10000 double life phone batteries and sell them for $100 each. There's more per-cell overhead in the phone batteries but is it worth a million dollar drop in revenue?
  - MostlyStable 1y ago
    Consumers seem to disagree with you on the first part. I personally think that current battery tech is fine for EVs (I have an EV with a 260 mile range, and only a 77kW max charge rate, and I think it's fine even for 10+ hour road trips), but a segment of the consumer space wants more than that. I personally thought that the more interesting part of the article was where they claimed to be able to add 800 miles of range in 12 minutes. At those kinds of charge rates, my ideal EV would probably have a 300ish mile range that I could charge from 10-80 in <10 minutes (although I believe that part of the way they get those charge rates is with large battery packs, so a smaller pack would probably not charge as fast). Additionally, while the specs for EV sedans are currently fine, batteries are only barely good enough for larger, less efficient vehicles. Maybe the killer app here isn't a sedan that goes 1000 miles, but a truck or SUV that can go 500. The point is, whatever your and my opinions on the adequacy of current EV charging, the market seems to value improved battery specs more highly in the EV space than it does in the phone space (or maybe it doesn't and BYD is making a mistake by keeping their batteries for their cars instead of selling them to phone manufacturers).
    - ikt 1y ago
      don’t know why you’re being downvoted, seems reasonable to me
    - actsasbuffoon 1y ago
      EV batteries degrade more quickly when charged too far above half-way. As a result, your ideal EV might actually have 600 miles of range and you’d just leave it half-charged most of the time.
      - MostlyStable 1y ago
        From everything I've heard/read you can pretty safely go to 80-90% of listed state of charge (manufacturers often also include a hidden buffer for exactly this reason). My car, which like I said has a 260 mile range, I only charge to 80% unless I'm going on a long road trip. So for 90%+ of the time, it's never charged more than 80% (and I very rarely discharge it to less than 15%). For most people, a 300 mile range like I describe would be plenty to be able to not need 100% charge except on rare occasions. But even if it's not for you, or for some people, I very specifically said "my ideal EV". A 600 mile range that I almost never use is just extra weight that I'm carrying around and decreasing efficiency, and isn't actually providing much real battery protection. I am absolutely not someone who drives 360 miles a day (which is what you could do if you were doing an 80% to 20% discharge on a 600 mile battery every day. I'm pretty confident that stats suggest that very few people drive that much on a regular basis. The 150 miles I get from the the 80% to 20% range on my current battery is already more than enough.
  - harry8 1y ago
    I’m out for 2-3 days. Better take an external battery for the phone. Done. Doesn’t work with a car. Really easy to work around Apple’s utterly crap battery life. If it were better that would be nice to have. Going a certain distance so can’t take an ev at all. It’d be nice if you could, if your usage is mostly very urban, sure that’s just nice. Gotta visit Dad on the farm a dozen times a year or whatever? That’s not your life so you don’t see it as essential even if the rest of the driving is much shorter range.
    - nicoburns 1y ago
      It really should work with a car (there's no reason why they couldn't support additional external battery packs in the trunk or as a trailer, etc).
      - harry8 1y ago
        for $10, right?
        mitthrowaway2 1y ago
        Renting a U-Haul starts at $19.95 per day...
        harry8 1y ago
        Uh. How much do car batteries cost again?
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        A hell of a lot less than entire trucks.
        harry8 1y ago
        I think maybe there’s some cross thread confusion. The comparison I’m making is an external phone battery is $10. Replacing an ev battery is, hell i dunno, $10.000? Not needing an external phone battery would be nice. Needing external ev batteries is far more likely to be cost prohibitive. Adjacent to this thread people have raised size and weight issues as well. I didn’t even bother going that far because the straight up price puts it in a different ball park to an external phone battery. Hope we’re all on the same page again!
- cherioo 1y ago
  Battery life is fine but phone company are always after thinner and lighter. I can’t imagine no company will jump on this. Just look at rumored iphone air
  - harry8 1y ago
    I’d take a phone double the thickness to get double the battery life between charges. Options on that front are limited. Had an ulefone for a while which was better than most until the screen started getting constant phantom presses making it unusable.
    - ggm-at-algebras 1y ago
      My hand does not shrink. Try holding and using a phone as thick as a credit card compared to one 5mm thick and ask yourself which feels better. Ie, I agree totally with your sentiment
rob_c 1y ago
> Is there some reason why solid state batteries seem to be being deployed in cars sooner than in phones? Not quite energy density, but the energy density, cost, complexity when combined with the discharge profile generates a very "interesting" phase space. There's a few promising technologies which have very, very good efficiencies but only like very slow predictable discharge cycles. These are excellent for say building giant GW batteries in the desert, but not so great for even car batteries. Phones and tech have bursty power needs based on use, the cost of taking other tech down to the size of a phone is extremely high (especially if you're first to market unless you know you will sell millions of units). Not to mention the reliability of batteries typically decreasing as the size drops. Cars tend to be in the middle with their discharge profiles being relatively smooth compared to say a laptop, but yes you still have economies of scale, complexity, reliability and supply chain and patents to contend with ;)
- awongh 1y ago
  I guess I would have just assumed that because batteries are chemistry the size scales relatively easily. Anyways- isn't a normal cell in an EV battery is like a AA size? Is this still true for solid state?
  - vel0city 1y ago
    > isn't a normal cell in an EV battery is like a AA size? No. Some companies use tons of cylindrical cells that are larger AAs (like 18mmx65mm, 21mmx80mm, or 46mmx80mm). But even then at 46mm in diameter it's a good bit bigger than a AA. But lots of manufacturers use prismatic or pouch like batteries. They're large and rectangular. Like these batteries on this BYD, they're called "blades". Most other major manufacturers use prismatic cells.
jacooper 1y ago
They already exist in Chinese phones, the new one plus has insane battery life because of its 6000mah battery, while still being as thin as a normal phone. Other phones targeting the Chinese market have reached 8000. But companies like Apple and Samsung like to just sit on their laurels and sell the same thing again.
- ksec 1y ago
  They are not using Solid State but Semi Solid State with Silicon Carbon. We should be expecting 400Whr/Kg by end of this year. But yes Apple and Samsung has been very slow in adoption to new Battery Tech, even when it is somewhat market tested by Chinese phone markers.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - vitorgrs 1y ago
    I believe it's been 5 years that some Chinese phones already have Silicon Carbon battery... Samsung/Apple was crazy slow on this, and later this year everyone will get "Shocked" when apple supposedly show up their new phone with the new battery...
    - ksec 1y ago
      >and later this year everyone will get "Shocked" when apple supposedly show up their new phone with the new battery... That is on the assumption they will use the battery....
      - vitorgrs 1y ago
        There was rumors iPhone 17 would have it And considering Samsung showed Galaxy Edge with the new battery...
        jacooper 1y ago
rstuart4133 1y ago
> Is there some reason why solid state batteries seem to be being deployed in cars sooner than in phones? Oh, that's easy. I already knew the answer, which probably means just about every AI could tell you. Phone batteries use Li Polymer (which is solid state BTW), because they can be any shape, including flat, wide and very thin. Other chemistry's can't be thin.
tim333 1y ago
Many companies have been trying to make solid state batteries for years but it's hard to make anything that works at scale as opposed to some 2mm sample on a lab bench. I guess the likes of BYD got there first because they have put a lot of investment dollars and engineers in, being the world's second largest battery maker. I think CATL the largest are also working on it. And Toyota. I'm not sure any have been able to manufacture in quantity at an acceptable price though. Soon probably.

by awongh 1y ago

dzhiurgis 1y ago

Volumetric vs gravimetric density. Cars have heaps of space but smallish weight budget. Phones are opposite.

MostlyStable 1y ago

For the last part, my guess is that the advantages are much more valuable in an EV than they are in a phone (where batteries are mostly fine. While longer life and faster charging are always nice to have:they are just that: nice to have), so if you are A) production limited and B) they are still more expensive (the article states they expect them to be price-comparable by the end of the decade), then they probably aren't worth it in a phone (yet). When price comes down and production comes up (assuming those things happen), then I would expect them to start appearing in phones as well.

Dylan16807 1y ago
That logic seems crazy to me. Extra hundreds of miles are also just nice to have, and with the same material that goes into a 500kg car pack you could make 10000 double life phone batteries and sell them for $100 each. There's more per-cell overhead in the phone batteries but is it worth a million dollar drop in revenue?
- MostlyStable 1y ago
  Consumers seem to disagree with you on the first part. I personally think that current battery tech is fine for EVs (I have an EV with a 260 mile range, and only a 77kW max charge rate, and I think it's fine even for 10+ hour road trips), but a segment of the consumer space wants more than that. I personally thought that the more interesting part of the article was where they claimed to be able to add 800 miles of range in 12 minutes. At those kinds of charge rates, my ideal EV would probably have a 300ish mile range that I could charge from 10-80 in <10 minutes (although I believe that part of the way they get those charge rates is with large battery packs, so a smaller pack would probably not charge as fast). Additionally, while the specs for EV sedans are currently fine, batteries are only barely good enough for larger, less efficient vehicles. Maybe the killer app here isn't a sedan that goes 1000 miles, but a truck or SUV that can go 500. The point is, whatever your and my opinions on the adequacy of current EV charging, the market seems to value improved battery specs more highly in the EV space than it does in the phone space (or maybe it doesn't and BYD is making a mistake by keeping their batteries for their cars instead of selling them to phone manufacturers).
  - ikt 1y ago
    don’t know why you’re being downvoted, seems reasonable to me
  - actsasbuffoon 1y ago
    EV batteries degrade more quickly when charged too far above half-way. As a result, your ideal EV might actually have 600 miles of range and you’d just leave it half-charged most of the time.
    - MostlyStable 1y ago
      From everything I've heard/read you can pretty safely go to 80-90% of listed state of charge (manufacturers often also include a hidden buffer for exactly this reason). My car, which like I said has a 260 mile range, I only charge to 80% unless I'm going on a long road trip. So for 90%+ of the time, it's never charged more than 80% (and I very rarely discharge it to less than 15%). For most people, a 300 mile range like I describe would be plenty to be able to not need 100% charge except on rare occasions. But even if it's not for you, or for some people, I very specifically said "my ideal EV". A 600 mile range that I almost never use is just extra weight that I'm carrying around and decreasing efficiency, and isn't actually providing much real battery protection. I am absolutely not someone who drives 360 miles a day (which is what you could do if you were doing an 80% to 20% discharge on a 600 mile battery every day. I'm pretty confident that stats suggest that very few people drive that much on a regular basis. The 150 miles I get from the the 80% to 20% range on my current battery is already more than enough.
- harry8 1y ago
  I’m out for 2-3 days. Better take an external battery for the phone. Done. Doesn’t work with a car. Really easy to work around Apple’s utterly crap battery life. If it were better that would be nice to have. Going a certain distance so can’t take an ev at all. It’d be nice if you could, if your usage is mostly very urban, sure that’s just nice. Gotta visit Dad on the farm a dozen times a year or whatever? That’s not your life so you don’t see it as essential even if the rest of the driving is much shorter range.
  - nicoburns 1y ago
    It really should work with a car (there's no reason why they couldn't support additional external battery packs in the trunk or as a trailer, etc).
    - harry8 1y ago
      for $10, right?
      - mitthrowaway2 1y ago
        Renting a U-Haul starts at $19.95 per day...
        harry8 1y ago
        Uh. How much do car batteries cost again?
        Dylan16807 1y ago
        A hell of a lot less than entire trucks.
        harry8 1y ago
        I think maybe there’s some cross thread confusion. The comparison I’m making is an external phone battery is $10. Replacing an ev battery is, hell i dunno, $10.000? Not needing an external phone battery would be nice. Needing external ev batteries is far more likely to be cost prohibitive. Adjacent to this thread people have raised size and weight issues as well. I didn’t even bother going that far because the straight up price puts it in a different ball park to an external phone battery. Hope we’re all on the same page again!
cherioo 1y ago
Battery life is fine but phone company are always after thinner and lighter. I can’t imagine no company will jump on this. Just look at rumored iphone air
- harry8 1y ago
  I’d take a phone double the thickness to get double the battery life between charges. Options on that front are limited. Had an ulefone for a while which was better than most until the screen started getting constant phantom presses making it unusable.
  - ggm-at-algebras 1y ago
    My hand does not shrink. Try holding and using a phone as thick as a credit card compared to one 5mm thick and ask yourself which feels better. Ie, I agree totally with your sentiment

rob_c 1y ago

> Is there some reason why solid state batteries seem to be being deployed in cars sooner than in phones? Not quite energy density, but the energy density, cost, complexity when combined with the discharge profile generates a very "interesting" phase space. There's a few promising technologies which have very, very good efficiencies but only like very slow predictable discharge cycles. These are excellent for say building giant GW batteries in the desert, but not so great for even car batteries. Phones and tech have bursty power needs based on use, the cost of taking other tech down to the size of a phone is extremely high (especially if you're first to market unless you know you will sell millions of units). Not to mention the reliability of batteries typically decreasing as the size drops. Cars tend to be in the middle with their discharge profiles being relatively smooth compared to say a laptop, but yes you still have economies of scale, complexity, reliability and supply chain and patents to contend with ;)

awongh 1y ago
I guess I would have just assumed that because batteries are chemistry the size scales relatively easily. Anyways- isn't a normal cell in an EV battery is like a AA size? Is this still true for solid state?
- vel0city 1y ago
  > isn't a normal cell in an EV battery is like a AA size? No. Some companies use tons of cylindrical cells that are larger AAs (like 18mmx65mm, 21mmx80mm, or 46mmx80mm). But even then at 46mm in diameter it's a good bit bigger than a AA. But lots of manufacturers use prismatic or pouch like batteries. They're large and rectangular. Like these batteries on this BYD, they're called "blades". Most other major manufacturers use prismatic cells.

jacooper 1y ago

They already exist in Chinese phones, the new one plus has insane battery life because of its 6000mah battery, while still being as thin as a normal phone. Other phones targeting the Chinese market have reached 8000. But companies like Apple and Samsung like to just sit on their laurels and sell the same thing again.

ksec 1y ago
They are not using Solid State but Semi Solid State with Silicon Carbon. We should be expecting 400Whr/Kg by end of this year. But yes Apple and Samsung has been very slow in adoption to new Battery Tech, even when it is somewhat market tested by Chinese phone markers.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- vitorgrs 1y ago
  I believe it's been 5 years that some Chinese phones already have Silicon Carbon battery... Samsung/Apple was crazy slow on this, and later this year everyone will get "Shocked" when apple supposedly show up their new phone with the new battery...
  - ksec 1y ago
    >and later this year everyone will get "Shocked" when apple supposedly show up their new phone with the new battery... That is on the assumption they will use the battery....
    - vitorgrs 1y ago
      There was rumors iPhone 17 would have it And considering Samsung showed Galaxy Edge with the new battery...
      - jacooper 1y ago

rstuart4133 1y ago

> Is there some reason why solid state batteries seem to be being deployed in cars sooner than in phones? Oh, that's easy. I already knew the answer, which probably means just about every AI could tell you. Phone batteries use Li Polymer (which is solid state BTW), because they can be any shape, including flat, wide and very thin. Other chemistry's can't be thin.

tim333 1y ago

Many companies have been trying to make solid state batteries for years but it's hard to make anything that works at scale as opposed to some 2mm sample on a lab bench. I guess the likes of BYD got there first because they have put a lot of investment dollars and engineers in, being the world's second largest battery maker. I think CATL the largest are also working on it. And Toyota. I'm not sure any have been able to manufacture in quantity at an acceptable price though. Soon probably.