5 ms·

Men, where have you gone? Please come back

16 points by 012673 1y ago

labrador 1y ago
As a father of a son, this is heartbreaking. I understand the motivation behind #metoo as outrage against predatory men. Men and women alike feel this outrage. But it's gone too far. My 39 year old single son was publicly shamed by Gen Z people around him for approaching a 22 yr old woman. Last I checked, 22 yr old women are adults who can say no if they want. It feels to me like my son has given up in this environment. He wants to get married and have kids, but it's not looking good at this point.
- bell-cot 1y ago
  Yeah. Obviously there's a huge amount of nuance in approaching another person. OTOH, I certainly know men who simply stay away from women - because "that's the best possible outcome anyway, and the least painful way of reaching it".
  - nchmy 1y ago
    Cold approaching someone to ask them out - especially if they hadn't yet AT LEAST exchanged smiles - seems to be the sign of a deluded/misguided person. And even moreso with such an enormous - and generally creepy - age difference. More prudent and effective would be to approach a group, chat with them, and build a rapport. Then see where things go. Even more prudent would be to not be so utterly pathetic and desperate, and instead just focus on doing things that bring you fulfillment. And then meet people who also do those things, some of who you will just click with. And perhaps even romantically. There's no "approach anxiety" that way because there's no "approach" at all! Just live an authentic, contented life - that's what's actually attractive to people. The problem is that most people do not live an authentic life. But there's nothing stopping them from starting today and endless options for it. But keep "dating" out of your mind - just go and connect with people, develop interests, skills, self confidence etc
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
- nchmy 1y ago
  Why approach a 22 yr old though when you are 39? Nothing about that makes any sense. He could literally be her father.
  - dinkusmcgrawkus 1y ago
    Well, didn't you just prove his point and your comment is exactly the same sort of finger wagging, virtue signalling bs that got us here. SHE IS 22, SHE IS AN ADULT! If you think that throughout history, 40 year old men have NOT sought out younger woman to mate with, you're fucking delusional. SHE IS AN ADULT, GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. Your "disgust" over the relationship is no different then having disgust over a black man dating a white woman. Go outside and touch grass.
    - nchmy 1y ago
      You seem to be the only one exhibiting disgust here, friend. The main reason for my comment - though there's plenty more - is that a 38yr old and 22 yr old are literally a generation, and hopefully (for the older person's sake) immense life experience and maturity levels, apart. I'm late 30s and couldn't possibly fathom being in a fulfilling relationship with a 22 year old - unless I was only interested in her as an object to be enjoyed. That this guy had interest in her says to me that he's woefully misguided/underdeveloped. And she/the "defenders" could surely see that as well. This is compounded by just cold approaching her in public. If they happened to meet through some common activity and got to know each other and hit it off - which is how normal people go about such things - it would be a different story. I feel sorry for the guy, and all those here who are defending him.
      - labrador 1y ago
        You're assuming a cold approach from a stranger. They knew each other and were friendly. He asked, she declined. That should’ve been the end of it. But instead, she chose public shaming, which wasn’t about boundaries, it was about performing victimhood. That kind of social punishment teaches men to disappear, not to grow. What do you think that does to a generation of men already struggling with connection?
tolerance 1y ago
This is a really weird article. For one, I'm shocked that the New York Times would even publish this from an editorial perspective because it has the ChatGPT's streaks all over it. Second. Reading a eulogy for late-stage hook-up culture written by someone old enough to be by mother is awkward. Worst of all, and I hate be crude, but she has to romanticize, I'm so sorry, I hate to say it...getting piped and objectified. And that somehow there is a subtle nobility to this and that men—ostensibly her age and possibly younger—in spite of all the nonsense taking place in the world should chase more booty. She'd be better off packaging her ChatGPT prompts as a Lena Dunham Agent.
- nchmy 1y ago
  I didn't get LLM vibes at all. But I completely agree with you. She sounds like a cougar. And, worse, apparently has no ability for introspection - for herself or her collective gender. I'm not saying that she or women are "the problem" in this story, but surely the question must be raised. Eg "ladies, do we have a part to play in this disappearance of men?"
atlgator 1y ago
Did men ever enjoy the process of "connecting" on dates? Or was it a means to an end of establishing a sexual relationship? A ritual to reach the desired goal?
- bell-cot 1y ago
  Many did...though perhaps only after they'd gained some maturity, and their testosterone levels had fall from the "24/7 beer goggles" level of teenagers. Not so much anymore. OTOH: I know a fair number of older women. From their PoV, trying to "date" in the past couple decades or so has also gone a long, long way downhill.
- carabiner 1y ago
  Good dates are amazing and you feel like you don't want the night to end. Most on HN cannot conceive of this.
axiologist 1y ago
The article is telling much more about the author than about men. The author appears to be exactly the kind of woman many men looking for actual love instead of just sex actively prefer to avoid.
axiologist 1y ago
Might be closely related to the author's complains: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44348016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44348016
BoredSmurf 1y ago
Why should one ever court a woman on a date, if 98% of the time you are not allowed to interrupt her dabbling with her smartphone? As if they were afraid of talking. Most of them only want dinner and taxi for free and have three pics for insta: one of the dinner, one of the dessert and one of the fool paying. I met my girlfriend at a metro station just like that, unprepared, both with empty smartphones, we exchanged the numbers oldschool, on napkins. Just avoid any situation that looks like "dating" - too many rules, expectations and pretexts. Too much lying and deceptions.
dinkusmcgrawkus 1y ago
This "woman" is so original, she had to use Chat GPT to write her article. So, after decades of letting universities sell kids an "experience" and shoveling them into the mass brainwashing humanities departments, where young woman are taught to hate men by bull dyke lesbian professors this "author" is wondering why men are absent? Married with kids, and a divorce? You can bet the man will be getting the shitty end of the stick. You can bet the man will be paying all the expenses, you can bet the man will be blamed for everything. Look at a woman on the street who's wearing a thong bikini as she goes to pick up groceries? You're an animal who was raping her with your eyes. Want to make a connection with a woman you adore? Oh wait, she's got her checklist of requirements you need to meet before that will happen. And they wonder why.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
matt-attack 1y ago
Paywalled. Anyone have a link?
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- metaprofessor 1y ago
  neuralkoi's link to archive.ph works.
neuralkoi 1y ago
https://archive.ph/VDwIl https://archive.ph/VDwIl
neuralkoi 1y ago
My ChatGPT meter tells me that it *feels* like this was written by AI: Notice the excessive use of the em dash throughout the article combined with the sycophantic contrasts ChatGPT loves to use so much: "It wasn’t intimacy. It wasn’t mutuality. It was access to simulation — clean, fast and frictionless." A sad state of affairs if the NYT is letting AI-slop through.
- voskresenie 1y ago
  Let me guess—you watched a tiktok video telling you that em-dashes are a sure sign of AI, and you accepted it without question. Go find a couple NYT articles from 10 years ago and check how many em-dashes they use—the answer might surprise you! (Hint: AI uses a lot of em-dashes because its training data uses a lot of em-dashes. What is its training data?)
- audunw 1y ago
  Yeah cause it’s completely unimaginable that a professional writer would use em dash /s https://www.nightwater.email/em-dash-ai/ https://www.nightwater.email/em-dash-ai/ I do dread the wave of AI slop coming our way. But honestly what I dread even more is the comments that’s going to second guess every other article and comment, just because they use some character or style that people have decided is a sign of being AI generated. That’s gonna get tedious real fast.
  - voskresenie 1y ago
    I'm an amateur composer and it pains me to know that, given my lack of credentials, my work will always be viewed with the suspicion of AI involvement. I version control my scores for this reason, at the very least I can prove that it took me weeks, months, or sometimes years of effort and revisions to compose something, even if I can't prove that each revision wasn't just the output of an AI. It was already bad enough worrying that a melody or sequence I wrote is too similar to some other existing work and judged to be plagiarism, but that pales in comparison to AI suspicions.
- inkywatcher 1y ago
  The dashes thing is really only a tell for high schoolers and obvious illiterates –writers can and do use them. Next we need to teach GPT about interrobangs.
bell-cot 1y ago
3 Observations: "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife." (Jane Austin, 1813) Vs. modern capitalism has, for most American men, optimized away any chance of enjoying basic financial security. To paraphrase Burma Shave - don't expect them to put their chins out there, if they feel hopeless about affording the ring and the flat. Between older-style advertising, the web, and smart phones, modern capitalism's Borg has gotten incredibly good at optimizing human behavior for its own profit. Men having quality relationships with women is not very profitable for the Borg. It ain't just men. Over the past decade, especially during the COVID mess, many of the women I know decided to seriously cut back their social engagement - "to take better care of myself" and other phrases. (Yes, I know the NYT's "Modern Love" series is far more poetic than analytical.)

16 points by 012673 1y ago

As a father of a son, this is heartbreaking. I understand the motivation behind #metoo as outrage against predatory men. Men and women alike feel this outrage. But it's gone too far. My 39 year old single son was publicly shamed by Gen Z people around him for approaching a 22 yr old woman. Last I checked, 22 yr old women are adults who can say no if they want. It feels to me like my son has given up in this environment. He wants to get married and have kids, but it's not looking good at this point.

bell-cot 1y ago
Yeah. Obviously there's a huge amount of nuance in approaching another person. OTOH, I certainly know men who simply stay away from women - because "that's the best possible outcome anyway, and the least painful way of reaching it".
- nchmy 1y ago
  Cold approaching someone to ask them out - especially if they hadn't yet AT LEAST exchanged smiles - seems to be the sign of a deluded/misguided person. And even moreso with such an enormous - and generally creepy - age difference. More prudent and effective would be to approach a group, chat with them, and build a rapport. Then see where things go. Even more prudent would be to not be so utterly pathetic and desperate, and instead just focus on doing things that bring you fulfillment. And then meet people who also do those things, some of who you will just click with. And perhaps even romantically. There's no "approach anxiety" that way because there's no "approach" at all! Just live an authentic, contented life - that's what's actually attractive to people. The problem is that most people do not live an authentic life. But there's nothing stopping them from starting today and endless options for it. But keep "dating" out of your mind - just go and connect with people, develop interests, skills, self confidence etc
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
nchmy 1y ago
Why approach a 22 yr old though when you are 39? Nothing about that makes any sense. He could literally be her father.
- dinkusmcgrawkus 1y ago
  Well, didn't you just prove his point and your comment is exactly the same sort of finger wagging, virtue signalling bs that got us here. SHE IS 22, SHE IS AN ADULT! If you think that throughout history, 40 year old men have NOT sought out younger woman to mate with, you're fucking delusional. SHE IS AN ADULT, GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. Your "disgust" over the relationship is no different then having disgust over a black man dating a white woman. Go outside and touch grass.
  - nchmy 1y ago
    You seem to be the only one exhibiting disgust here, friend. The main reason for my comment - though there's plenty more - is that a 38yr old and 22 yr old are literally a generation, and hopefully (for the older person's sake) immense life experience and maturity levels, apart. I'm late 30s and couldn't possibly fathom being in a fulfilling relationship with a 22 year old - unless I was only interested in her as an object to be enjoyed. That this guy had interest in her says to me that he's woefully misguided/underdeveloped. And she/the "defenders" could surely see that as well. This is compounded by just cold approaching her in public. If they happened to meet through some common activity and got to know each other and hit it off - which is how normal people go about such things - it would be a different story. I feel sorry for the guy, and all those here who are defending him.
    - labrador 1y ago
      You're assuming a cold approach from a stranger. They knew each other and were friendly. He asked, she declined. That should’ve been the end of it. But instead, she chose public shaming, which wasn’t about boundaries, it was about performing victimhood. That kind of social punishment teaches men to disappear, not to grow. What do you think that does to a generation of men already struggling with connection?

tolerance 1y ago

This is a really weird article. For one, I'm shocked that the New York Times would even publish this from an editorial perspective because it has the ChatGPT's streaks all over it. Second. Reading a eulogy for late-stage hook-up culture written by someone old enough to be by mother is awkward. Worst of all, and I hate be crude, but she has to romanticize, I'm so sorry, I hate to say it...getting piped and objectified. And that somehow there is a subtle nobility to this and that men—ostensibly her age and possibly younger—in spite of all the nonsense taking place in the world should chase more booty. She'd be better off packaging her ChatGPT prompts as a Lena Dunham Agent.

nchmy 1y ago
I didn't get LLM vibes at all. But I completely agree with you. She sounds like a cougar. And, worse, apparently has no ability for introspection - for herself or her collective gender. I'm not saying that she or women are "the problem" in this story, but surely the question must be raised. Eg "ladies, do we have a part to play in this disappearance of men?"

atlgator 1y ago

Did men ever enjoy the process of "connecting" on dates? Or was it a means to an end of establishing a sexual relationship? A ritual to reach the desired goal?

bell-cot 1y ago
Many did...though perhaps only after they'd gained some maturity, and their testosterone levels had fall from the "24/7 beer goggles" level of teenagers. Not so much anymore. OTOH: I know a fair number of older women. From their PoV, trying to "date" in the past couple decades or so has also gone a long, long way downhill.
carabiner 1y ago
Good dates are amazing and you feel like you don't want the night to end. Most on HN cannot conceive of this.

axiologist 1y ago

The article is telling much more about the author than about men. The author appears to be exactly the kind of woman many men looking for actual love instead of just sex actively prefer to avoid.

axiologist 1y ago

Might be closely related to the author's complains: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44348016 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44348016

BoredSmurf 1y ago

Why should one ever court a woman on a date, if 98% of the time you are not allowed to interrupt her dabbling with her smartphone? As if they were afraid of talking. Most of them only want dinner and taxi for free and have three pics for insta: one of the dinner, one of the dessert and one of the fool paying. I met my girlfriend at a metro station just like that, unprepared, both with empty smartphones, we exchanged the numbers oldschool, on napkins. Just avoid any situation that looks like "dating" - too many rules, expectations and pretexts. Too much lying and deceptions.

dinkusmcgrawkus 1y ago

This "woman" is so original, she had to use Chat GPT to write her article. So, after decades of letting universities sell kids an "experience" and shoveling them into the mass brainwashing humanities departments, where young woman are taught to hate men by bull dyke lesbian professors this "author" is wondering why men are absent? Married with kids, and a divorce? You can bet the man will be getting the shitty end of the stick. You can bet the man will be paying all the expenses, you can bet the man will be blamed for everything. Look at a woman on the street who's wearing a thong bikini as she goes to pick up groceries? You're an animal who was raping her with your eyes. Want to make a connection with a woman you adore? Oh wait, she's got her checklist of requirements you need to meet before that will happen. And they wonder why.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

matt-attack 1y ago

Paywalled. Anyone have a link?

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
metaprofessor 1y ago
neuralkoi's link to archive.ph works.

neuralkoi 1y ago

https://archive.ph/VDwIl https://archive.ph/VDwIl

neuralkoi 1y ago

My ChatGPT meter tells me that it *feels* like this was written by AI: Notice the excessive use of the em dash throughout the article combined with the sycophantic contrasts ChatGPT loves to use so much: "It wasn’t intimacy. It wasn’t mutuality. It was access to simulation — clean, fast and frictionless." A sad state of affairs if the NYT is letting AI-slop through.

voskresenie 1y ago
Let me guess—you watched a tiktok video telling you that em-dashes are a sure sign of AI, and you accepted it without question. Go find a couple NYT articles from 10 years ago and check how many em-dashes they use—the answer might surprise you! (Hint: AI uses a lot of em-dashes because its training data uses a lot of em-dashes. What is its training data?)
audunw 1y ago
Yeah cause it’s completely unimaginable that a professional writer would use em dash /s https://www.nightwater.email/em-dash-ai/ https://www.nightwater.email/em-dash-ai/ I do dread the wave of AI slop coming our way. But honestly what I dread even more is the comments that’s going to second guess every other article and comment, just because they use some character or style that people have decided is a sign of being AI generated. That’s gonna get tedious real fast.
- voskresenie 1y ago
  I'm an amateur composer and it pains me to know that, given my lack of credentials, my work will always be viewed with the suspicion of AI involvement. I version control my scores for this reason, at the very least I can prove that it took me weeks, months, or sometimes years of effort and revisions to compose something, even if I can't prove that each revision wasn't just the output of an AI. It was already bad enough worrying that a melody or sequence I wrote is too similar to some other existing work and judged to be plagiarism, but that pales in comparison to AI suspicions.
inkywatcher 1y ago
The dashes thing is really only a tell for high schoolers and obvious illiterates –writers can and do use them. Next we need to teach GPT about interrobangs.

bell-cot 1y ago

3 Observations: "It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a single man in possession of a good fortune, must be in want of a wife." (Jane Austin, 1813) Vs. modern capitalism has, for most American men, optimized away any chance of enjoying basic financial security. To paraphrase Burma Shave - don't expect them to put their chins out there, if they feel hopeless about affording the ring and the flat. Between older-style advertising, the web, and smart phones, modern capitalism's Borg has gotten incredibly good at optimizing human behavior for its own profit. Men having quality relationships with women is not very profitable for the Borg. It ain't just men. Over the past decade, especially during the COVID mess, many of the women I know decided to seriously cut back their social engagement - "to take better care of myself" and other phrases. (Yes, I know the NYT's "Modern Love" series is far more poetic than analytical.)