12 ms·

Windows 8 productivity: Who moved my cheese? Oh, there it is.

168 points by nigelsampson 14y ago

DodgyEggplant 14y ago
Something weird or hard to catch in those screenshots. Can't put the finger where though
- vacri 14y ago
  Glass isn't enabled?
  - Auguste 14y ago
    Wasn't Aero removed altogether to make way for Metro?
    - panacea 14y ago
      I think you mean [+], the interface paradigm formerly know as Metro.
lmm 14y ago
So I guess windows 8 is fine for super-experts who know all the shortcuts, as well as for the completely new. But I expect both categories make up quite a small proportion of the userbase.
- ralfn 14y ago
  This seems a more common trend. Windows really was the exception, where they aimed to please neither professionals, nor "average consumers", but this mythical "poweruser". They didnt exist, Microsoft created them. And that was not a good thing. Many of them had a beaten wife syndrome: they became experts because even doing mundane trivial tasks, like burning a cd, organising your documents, installing software, required "poweruser level skills". Now they are afraid of change. They worry, they have to relearn all they know. They prefer to stick to the man they already know. Sure, he may beat them, but after all these years they know where its going hurt, and what his triggers are. Who knows how much more another man will beat them? Im glad Microsoft is cleaning ship, and i understand that the windows "power users" will need counseling. I dont like the walled garden future though. But wouldnt it be great if my mom buys a new pc and she was actually capable of doing things with it, like she can with her ipad, without needing the assistance of a power user? So, there i stand: death to the poweruser. They have to either man up and get professional, or lounge in the casual area, but lets not have them keep things back. From people being scared of shortcuts or powerusers dismissing linux because they have nightmares of terminal commands. Grow a pair, or embrace the new usability for casual users.
  - spinchange 14y ago
    >Im glad Microsoft is cleaning ship, and i understand that the windows "power users" will need counseling. I think the subtext of these posts is that time will tell if they're cleaning ship or just filling it with a whole new generation of powerusers around a system designed primarily for casual use. That's nothing to say if casual users find it useful either. Ultimately the whole casual/power user is sort of a false dichotomy. On a long enough curve, all users are powerusers for their case.
    - ralfn 14y ago
      I agree that time will tell if they were able to clean the ship succesfully. But all the complaining about how radical the changes are for powerusers at least suggest they are honestly trying for once. I like the curve analogy. It seems to suggest that good UI is like a partial ordering of usecases, where there is a clear relationship between complexity, position on the learning curve and popularity of the usecase. From that perspective one might say the traditional windows desktop starts off its learning curve with too much complexity and puts system maintainance tasks too far down on the curve.
  - gizmo686 14y ago
    What I don't like is that Windows is forcing users into a specific interface paradigm. In the Linux world, most distributions offer a wide variety of desktop paradigms, so when Ubuntu wanted to switch to Unity, users were just a couple of clicks away from logging into Ubuntu Classic (Gnome2), or if they don't like any of the ones that come pre-installed, they can easily install others. That way, you can have one computer with a "traditional" interface (Gnome2, qvwm...), an innovative interface (Gnome3, Unity...), and different types that just never got mainstream attention (xmonad, Awesome ...) Besides giving users choice and creating competition, this allows people to experiment and inovate with new systems with much less risk than Windows model of forcing people to use their latest and hoping for the best.
podperson 14y ago
Good article -- more constructive than whining -- but none of this seems easy to learn (or remember) which is probably the problem.
- sequoia 14y ago
  If you use windows regularly it is easy to learn/remember. Win+E.xplorer Win+D.esktop Win+left move win left. Start there then learn a new one every few days, soon you'll be a power user ;)
  - DeepDuh 14y ago
    I'm pretty sure podperson wasn't talking about himself. The main problem with Win8 seems to be that it's going to be difficult to learn for not so technically versed people, e.g. at least 80% of their userbase. And no, it's not true that they will just 'stay on win7'. a) They don't even know what version they're on anyway, b) they will just buy whatever is in store. I expect a massive wave of complaints to store support and OEM support hotlines, possibly enough to give some traction to easy-to-use preinstalled linux distros.
    - gizmo686 14y ago
      From a usability standpoint, Windows 8 seems to be one of the easiest full desktop OSes I've seen, the windows key takes to to a large icon screen with all of your programs, and you click on the one you want to run. I think that some of the decisions made to accomplish that goal hurt productivity for more experienced users, and those experienced users experience that as a hard interface. I had the same reaction when I had to use windows 7 after years of a tiling window manager and the terminal.
  - teamonkey 14y ago
    The Win+arrow keys work in Win7 and are fantastic for developers, especially for those that work with multiple displays. Whenever I have to go back to Vista I miss those hotkeys the most.
- keithpeter 14y ago
TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago
I really like the new Windows 8 Task Manager. It actually works as you would expect!
nhebb 14y ago
I'm an avid Win+{Key} user, so I won't have problem adapting. My family, though ... I'm not so sure. I'm a Windows developer, and I confess that I haven't tried Windows 8 yet. I'm usually eager to try new OS's and learn new things, but this time I'm not. I think it's a sense of dread about having to spent several hours learning an environment that just seems tedious.
- danieldk 14y ago
  I guess it's not really important. Many companies and consumers will stay for Windows 7 for a while and Windows 8 will enter the markets primarily via tablets. By the time Windows 8 SP1 or Windows 9 we'll see how that strategy worked out, and they'll probably tune the experience to make it an acceptable desktop operating system (either on real desktops or docked x86 tablets). That said, I have used Windows 8 out of curiosity for some weeks (as a UNIX user since 1994), and I have to admit that I quite liked it. I didn't really use Metro, except for checking Facebook and Twitter every now and then. Of course, I am not a regular Windows user who has learnt usage patterns over the years, but I think there's also a lot of inertia.
  - melling 14y ago
    Microsoft has a 90% desktop market share. How many new PC's are sold every year? Win8 sounds like a solid product so I think the adoption rate will be good. Is there really a really to ask for Win7 on a new PC after Win8 is released?
    - sigkill 14y ago
      You've got a point. I've been scouring the internet for an MSDN iso to go with the key. On certain ocean-theme based web sites I see people activating Windows 8 by the automated phone option. Assuming this is legitimate, is it a bug from Microsoft's side? Strategically, since this represents a paradigm shift I can't help but have this sneaky suspicion that MS is going a bit lax on pirates. I mean, they are trying your new PC OS, aren't they? Once you've got them converted, you can milk them in the future directly (when they buy Windows phones/tablets) or indirectly (when they recommend the entire Windows eco-system to their family/friends by bragging about how they got their copy and how awesome it is).
hdivider 14y ago
I've been using Windows 8 for months (always upgrading to the latest version), and don't have any problems whatsoever. In fact, I'm certain the thing actually runs way faster than Win7. This is because I've basically got everything configured like Windows 7 (I don't really use the Start screen), but the Win+(key) combination is what makes the difference. Take a typical almost-every-day activity for instance: checking the weather report. On Win7 (unless you had things specially configured for this event), you'd have to go online via a browser, find a suitable website, and wait for results - quite possibly having to physically type in your location if the site couldn't get it automatically. On Windows 8, I just press Windows + (the letters w e a) and the search instantly finds the Weather app - I've got it open in less than 0.3 seconds, and the app itself fetches the data in just a few seconds. This kind of stuff works straight out of the box, and wasn't possible on Win7. It shows that even desktop-only users like me can make at least >some< good use of the RT apps.
- wazoox 14y ago
  > On Windows 8, I just press Windows + (the letters w e a) and the search instantly finds the Weather app Good to see that they got this done at last. OS X had spotlight for what, 7 years?
  - sp332 14y ago
    It's not really about search. If you had a weather app installed already, Vista and 7 would do the same. But I guess it's nice that there's a built-in weather app now?
  - bornhuetter 14y ago
    Its been in Windows since Vista.
    - pedalpete 14y ago
      Unfortunately it was always slow in Vista, and not as well implemented as Spotlight. To me, spotlight is the shining light of my mac. Is the Win8 search faster and does it have a better design? I haven't heard anything about it.
ck2 14y ago
Windows 8 is the Digg of OS. Complete redesign for no purpose at all. And the fact they HAD a start menu interface until the final release (it was in the beta/candidates) is just a bigger insult. W8 is actually usable once you add back in the start menu and have it go immediately to the desktop via a 3rd party program. Why microsoft didn't allow that option when they original did, is clear demonstration of them being obstinant. Once again the lesson is - if you must change your product: 1. change it gradually 2. give an option for the old way
- vitobcn 14y ago
  I wouldn't say for no purpose at all. From my perspective there seems to be a very clear purpose: unifying the interface across platforms, which is one of the disadvantages they had when compared to Apple. With Windows 8, they will basically have the same UI for desktops, tablets and phones. Even hotmail.com's look has been revamped into outlook.com; and not only that, but Microsoft went as far to even update their logo from 1987, to match their new tile approach. Were all these changes necessary? Time will tell, but strategically it seems to make sense to unify the desktop experience (where they are dominant) to grow 2 of their new market segments: windows phone and tablet (surface).
  - css771 14y ago
    That's all fine for Microsoft's business strategy? But what does Win8 bring to the table for me, the consumer, that I couldn't have already gotten by using an 3rd party app on win7/xp?
  - ck2 14y ago
    Windows/Metro on mobile has terrible sales. Why would they want to unify DOWN to that level? It's crazy how much a lead Microsoft had with personal computers in the 80s and how far they've fallen. Once arm starts becoming powerful enough for desktops, Windows is pretty much done and the days of the wintel tax are over. We're almost there, give it about 3-4 years.
    - corporalagumbo 14y ago
Negitivefrags 14y ago
I really love the improvements in Windows 8 that have been made to the standard desktop applications. It's just a shame that they bolted on Metro and then force feed it to you by making it your start menu. The metro interface is truly unintuitive. I feel more at home on in OS X than I do in Metro, and I hate OS X.
- allwein 14y ago
  I wouldn't be surprised to see some pushback from "normal" Windows users that return new machines because they expected "windows" and got "some sort of tile OS".
jader201 14y ago
> Here's another crazy idea for shutting down your PC or Laptop - Press the Power Button. You can thank Windows for this. Back in the day when we went from DOS to Windows, this notion of a "proper shutdown" was introduced, and God forbid you press the power button, or bad things would happen. I'm not positive Windows was the first to do this, but I think it's safe to say it was the one that started this habit for most people. And now, it has became so engraved in our brain that it's nearly impossible to un-train. I to this day never use the power button on any device to shut it down out of uncertainty that I don't know what will happen[1] if I do. [1]http://www.aeropause.com/wordpress/archives/images/2008/11/accf-resetti.jpg http://www.aeropause.com/wordpress/archives/images/2008/11/a...
- stinos 14y ago
  I use power buttons all the time and never had any serious, or maybe just any, problem with it whatsoever. It also makes 100% sense: press button to power on, press button again to power off. Just like in the analog days.
- masklinn 14y ago
  In the very rare cases I need to reboot or shut down my macbook, I'll press the power button: it pops up a standard 4-button dialog with [Restart] on [SPC] and [Shutdown] on [Return]. Also available are [Sleep] and [Cancel] (on [Esc]). Way faster than going through the Apple menu.
- dhughes 14y ago
  FYI over at Reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/ysty8/windows_8_shut_down_is_a_lie/ http://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/ysty8/windows_8_sh... It seems shutting down just "mini hibernates" it does not shutdown Windows 8, you need to choose restart when installing updates.
- ekianjo 14y ago
  The AmigaOS, since the beginning, had no problem to deal with power off-s. That's only when I arrived on the PC that I felt very strange to have to do a software shut down instead of pressing a hardware button. Nonsense.
Bill_Dimm 14y ago
I haven't used Win8, so maybe I'm completely off-base here, but from the article it sounds like removal of the Start Menu has made it difficult to do a lot of things without either typing in commands or memorizing special key combinations (see, for example, the section called "Run Power User or Administrative Tools - WinKey+X is EVERYTHING"). So, how does anyone get anything done using Win8 on a tablet that doesn't have a keyboard?
- jodoherty 14y ago
  Just out of curiosity, does anyone try to get things done with a tablet? With the exception of pen-based note taking and drawing, all the activities I do on a tablet are consumption based (reading, web browsing, etc.) and easy to accomplish using Windows 8's metro interface. With that in mind, I think the added keyboard shortcuts really help clean up the interface for tablet users while giving desktop and notebook users a fast way of getting things done. But to answer your question, I think the real plan is that you don't try to do your work on a Windows 8 tablet without a keyboard. Instead, you get a lightweight, convertible Windows 8 tablet. That way, you can have your cake and eat it too.
- numo16 14y ago
  Actually, you can even get around the need for shortcut keys for admin tools if you really need to. Admin tools can be added to the start screen from the settings menu on the home screen: Settings -> Tiles -> "Show administrative tools".For other applications, if you don't want to interact with the tiles, you can hit the Win key and just start typing to search for applications, just as you could in Win7.
simplexion 14y ago
If you pander to people who are scared of change you will move forward so slowly you might as well stop. I feel that Microsoft haven't pushed hard enough for change. I'm tired of all the people complaining about change. I love Unity on Ubuntu. It took a little getting used to but it didn't stop my computer from being functional. I could do everything I could before just in a slightly different way. Change is awesome and all you bitches need to stop tripping on some old bullshit.
- stinos 14y ago
  while you do have a point, is it really necessary to throw insults and hip bitchin' lingo around?
- eckyptang 14y ago
  You in the minority of people who actually give a shit about the thing that sits in front of them in the office and find it interesting. The rest of the planet just want it to work just how it always did and piss off at the end of the day so they can go home, cook dinner, dig holes in the garden, watch television, build LEGO with their kids and play golf. Our job as software engineers is to SERVE those people unconditionally, make their lives less laborious and to reduce the burden of their jobs. After all what else is technology for? Marketing driven change does nothing but enslave people further and demand more attention. Incremental changes and improvements are much more useful as they allow people to adapt slowly without having to deal with life-changing events every few years. To hell with everyone who doesn't see it this way - you are doing a disservice to humanity.
  - recoiledsnake 14y ago
    That way there would no progress at all. When Windows 95 came out, there was a huge bunch of folks that wanted to stick to Windows 3.11 because Windows 95 was a big change. There was even an animation at boot-up that pointed to the Start button saying 'Click Here'. If we listened to those folks, we would not even have a task bar that no wants to switch from now. Also, see the below: The Macintosh uses an experimental pointing device called a 'mouse.' There is no evidence that people want to use these things. -- John Dvorak
nileshk 14y ago
I love seeing useful keyboard shortcuts being added. I've always used various Window key shortcuts whenever I use Windows. I even use the context menu key. But I wish the Window key was more like the Cmd key in OS X. That is, I wish it was a modifier key that can be used in key combinations, and ideally have it be the primary modifier. When you have 3 different modifier keys, this increases the number of key combinations exponentially vs 2. So take for example a cross platform IDE that is keyboard shortcut friendly, with lots of actions you can assign to keyboard shortcuts, like Eclipse. In the Windows version you only have shortcuts that can be a combination of Ctrl and Alt plus another key. With OS X (and Linux), you can have any combination of Ctrl, Alt, and Command plus another key, giving many more possibilities. I miss the lack of context menu key support in OS X, though. As a UNIX/Emacs user, a side benefit of having Command as the primary modifier key in OS X, used for many of the typical actions, is that typical OS X keyboard shortcuts don't generally get in the way of UNIX/Emacs keyboard shortcuts, which use Ctrl and Alt as modifiers exclusively. I can use Emacs keyboard shortcuts right alongside OS X keyboard shortcuts in the same application (I'm accustomed to both; for example, I might paste with either Cmd-V or Ctrl-Y, depending on whether my right hand is on the home row or not). But I don't expect that most Windows users would benefit from that particular aspect. However, I think having an extra modifier key, available to applications, would benefit a good portion of Windows users.
- davidp 14y ago
  > But I wish the Window key was more like the Cmd key in OS X. That is, I wish it was a modifier key that can be used in key combinations, and ideally have it be the primary modifier. I disagree; the entire point of the Windows key is that it isn't interpreted by applications. It provides instant keyboard-driven access to OS/shell functions (i.e. cross-application functions), and I love it. Linux (really X Window and window managers, I suppose) could benefit from using that key in the same way; Ubuntu's Unity does so to a limited extent. Imagine having useful keyboard-driven system/window management that's guaranteed not to conflict with any of your applications. (If that already exists, someone please clue me in, I'm less familiar with Linux than I am with Windows.)
  - 14y ago
Axsuul 14y ago
The overall feeling of Windows has changed dramatically with 7 and now 8. Before it felt like a very enterprise and cold operating system. Now, it actually feels refreshing, futuristic, and dare I say hip? Great job to the Windows team for this amazing feat. As for Windows 8 itself, I feel like the Task Manager alone is something worth upgrading for.
- daigoba66 14y ago
  If all you want is a better task manager, download process explorer. I still use process explorer on win8.
- gizmo686 14y ago
  I had a very similar experience with Gnome3. After months of complaining about how they completely ruined the UI and all the other flames (enough to motivate me to switch to a tiling window manager), I logged into it to see what was going on, and it looked really cool, and seemed more productive than the old Gnome2. I suspect I would have had a simmilar experience with Windows 8 if not for its horrid use of green, but that was an early developers preview, and I will be shocked if they haven't improved the cosmetics for the general release.
peacebeuntoyou 14y ago
Thank God I'm using Linux now - and a tiling window manager... I have been too long on the MS side. That's my only regret.
cs702 14y ago
Quoting from the article: "It's initially confusing but I have been using it every day all day since it was released and have got myself productive again." In other words, it's just like learning to use a different OS!
- eckyptang 14y ago
  I think it's more: "In other words, it knackered my productivity for a while". This is not acceptable. Also, don't forget Scott Hanselman works for Microsoft in the web platform team, so I'd say that is enough bias to ignore the article.
  - leddt 14y ago
    Ignore the article ? It's just tips on how to use Win8 effectively, meant to help you get started with it. If you don't plan on using Win8, okay, you can ignore it. Besides, of course he's not gonna bash the product, but Scott usually won't lie to your face about how good something is if he thinks it's crap.
    - eckyptang 14y ago
      Sorry I should have put "ignore the positive tone of the article". I have used Windows 8 for the last 6-7 days and regardless of this information, it's still a pain to use. The learning curve doesn't go away that easily.
- corporalagumbo 14y ago
  So Microsoft should be condemned for, after 20 years or so of WIMP, trying something really new?
  - davidwparker 14y ago
    I don't think cs702 is saying that. I'm guessing that he means it's like learning something completely different. My parents and my in-laws already had a ton of grief with changing from Office 2003 to Ribbon, when it came out; They also had trouble with XP -> 7. When they use my wife's MBP, they also have trouble. I'm pretty sure it's not going to be easy for them to use 8.
lawdawg 14y ago
When I see this image from the article: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/content/binary/Windows-Live-Writer/How-I-learned-to-stop-worry-and-learned-_1365A/image_22.png http://www.hanselman.com/blog/content/binary/Windows-Live-Wr... I have to ask myself, how can anyone think this: 1. Looks good. 2. Is ideal usage of screen real estate. And even this: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/content/binary/Windows-Live-Writer/How-I-learned-to-stop-worry-and-learned-_1365A/image_25.png http://www.hanselman.com/blog/content/binary/Windows-Live-Wr... Now you have a bunch of icons without text labels, how do you know what does what? Obviously the 3rd party apps are clear if you use them, but the main Windows apps aren't clear. For example, what is that purple icon next to the blue clouds? (And what are the blue clouds? Weather? or is the Sun weather?)
- corporalagumbo 14y ago
  1) Compared to a normal desktop, where most of your functional navigation is crammed into a small bar (which has pop-up cascading menus filled potentially with stacks of small application shortcuts, and lots of folders) a full screen of evenly-sized tiles with prominent identifying symbols seems okay to me. Maybe even an improvement, once you factor in live-tile info display. And certainly it seems far simpler to use - it only has one level of depth - click on anything and you're in an application. 2) Metro does look a little odd with such a tall screen. It makes more sense on a widescreen laptop or tablet display. Also he chose a pretty garish background. 3) Also remember most of these icons are legacy. Will look better when more of your apps are Metro-ised. 4) And of course Metro looks best - really only makes sense - when seen and used in motion. Metro is an extremely fluid, motion-heavy OS - traditional WIMP in comparison is as heavy and immobile as a pile of rocks. 5) Purple icon is maps. Blue clouds are skydrive (cloud service.) Sun is weather (once you've used the app once, local weather conditions are displayed on the tile.)
  - slantyyz 14y ago
    >> Compared to a normal desktop, where most of your functional navigation is crammed into a small bar This is a taste thing. Myself, I'll take the crammed bar over the grid any day. Even though I'm primarily a Mac user these days, I'm a Luddite when it comes to Windows - I still prefer the look and feel of Windows 2000 over its successors.
sharms 14y ago
As someone who primarily runs Ubuntu Linux and Mountain Lion, the interfaces and screenshots in the article definitely look pretty neat. I haven't had a chance to install Windows 8, and I definitely don't like the ideas about restricting the platform more. However, from an interface perspective, am I alone in thinking that it could be a positive change? (Maybe I am jaded from going through the Ubuntu Gnome -> Unity transition)
corporalagumbo 14y ago
Nice to see someone thinking constructively about W8. Too many people have just been nit-picking, and I think failing to see what W8 represents: a radical first-step in a long-overdue next step in the evolution of computer UIs. People like us should be applauding Microsoft for their audacity, not obsessing over the details. Change is always complicated. W8 is just one step, one which Microsoft will continue to evolve. People complained when DOS was being replaced by Windows right? It had to happen eventually. Windows 7 and OS X 10.8 are really nothing more than highly-polished iterations of the basic WIMP GUI. Apple has done nice work with iOS but seems loathe to rethink OS X beyond tossing in a few multitouch gestures. Enough has changed in computing technology, from processor power to network connectivity to interface technologies to the whole suite of activities people use computers for, that WIMP is really starting to show its age. And even more will change over the next 20 years - we should prepare ourselves for departures even more radical than W8. The WIMP desktop isn't the pinnacle for UI evolution. At least, let's hope it isn't! It is pretty clunky. Microsoft, now in the weaker position to Apple, is the company to usher in that shift. We should be glad we have a Microsoft in 2012.
- gizmo686 14y ago
  Do you mind pointing out what radical first step Windows 8 is taking. The metro interface stikes me as an adaptation of smart phone interfaces, and the desktop is a minor change to the old desktop system.
  - corporalagumbo 14y ago
    (apologies for the long response) I see W8 as a reaction to a new world of computing: more powerful computers, a proliferation of device formats, ubiquitous connectivity, a dissolving desktop-cloud barrier, pervasive social/identity services, mass-consumer computing, mostly for a whole emerging range of novel, non-traditional computer tasks. The WIMP desktop is a legacy product from the days of computers as workstations and computer-users as skilled specialists. The desktop is very static and rigid. Windows only move when clicked and dragged, only change size when their edges are pulled. The desktop can become as cluttered as you want with multiple windows and desktop folders and icons. This made sense in 1995, but now computers are far more powerful, and graphical display techniques are better too. W8 is fluid and dynamic where WIMP is sluggish and static. Tap or click on a tile and a whole new screen flips up, filling the screen. Even compared to iOS, Metro is far more dynamic, mainly due to its radically simpler design language. The basic fonts and block colours of Metro can squish and stretch and dynamically resize in a way which is largely impossible with the carefully detailed chrome of iOS. This fluidity also extends to the way the tasks flow into one another in the OS. Talking mostly from my experience with WP7, it’s remarkable how wall-less the OS can be. The way you can move from a messaging thread to your messagee’s contact card, simply by tapping their name, and seeing all their latest social activity on Facebook, is great. Ideally, Metro is wall-less - the opposite of iOS’s carefully segregated app ghettos. The platonic Metro ideal is that all the parts of the OS flow seamlessly together (it remains to be seen how successfully Microsoft can pull this off - also this quite different model may be difficult for developers used to iOS to get their heads around and take full advantage of). Furthermore, visually the Metro frontend is clearly the cleanest and simplest consumer OS ever. It's a massive decluttering effort to display only relevant info, and much much easier to understand than any previous OS. And Microsoft is aiming to make this design language uniform across phones, tablets and PCs, and their web presence. It has the most common net identity services baked in - and the whole platform is tied together with Windows ID, and all your files and info synced seamlessly across all of your Windows devices with Skydrive. So, for example, if I made an account on a W8 PC, it would prepare all of my contacts from Facebook and my calendar appointments because it knows me from my Windows phone. The aim as I understand it is radical flexibility - you can shift seamlessly from device to device and the environment is consistent throughout - it just works. Also part of the idea with Metro is to dissolve the web/desktop barrier - instead of just accessing web services through a browser and some dedicated programs (IM, torrent clients etc) and perhaps some desktop widgets, the web is baked in to the skeleton of the OS. Which makes sense. Not sure if I'm explaining this well... As I said, it remains to be seen whether Microsoft makes good on this potential. I’m just trying to articulate what I think Metro represents, what I sense is possible here. And trying to do so without just sounding like Microsoft PR :) It seems like maybe a lot of people are offended by W8 because it's too simple and potentially interferes with the quite complex workflows I assume average HN readers do with their computers. But for the average user, I think W8 is going to be great. Computers need to be democratised further - right now, the vast majority have almost no idea how to use WIMP. It’s just too complex. OS X is just as bad - in some ways even worse than W7! The value of W8 will be through hiding 95% of the compexity of computers from the average user, while preserving the technical backend for more advanced users. Normal users get a massively more approachable experience, allowing them to think less and spend more time doing the stuff they really want to with their computers. Advanced users can still go deeper (unlike Apple, which seems intent on locking down their entire system at the expense of advanced desktop users - and without giving any real gains in useability to justify it!) People forget, I think, that Microsoft focuses a lot on useability. Metro is the result of a lot of hard work thinking how to make computers more useable. Apple focuses on products that wow people. But from my experience with the iPad, it seems Apple thinks less about useability than people might expect (non-resizable thumb keyboard, I’m looking at you...) I think W8 is best seen as a transition product, making the first steps away from the old WIMP desktop. So yeah, right now, they haven't tinkered with the old desktop much. But a split is forming: between the simple easy-to-use frontend of the OS and the technical backend. Expect this split to become more coherent in W9.
EpaL 14y ago
Just installed Win 8 in Parallels on an rMBP and I have to be honest, I don't hate it as much as when I tried the preview release in a window on an iMac. Some of the tips in this article are great and the more you dig, the more you find they actually HAVE improved a lot of things in the 'old' OS as well (this seems to get ignored/glossed over in alot of reviews, especially the negative ones). So far, Metro/Win8 is just a toy without touch. I honestly can't see myself getting much work done here but it seems to keep out of the way enough. Ultimately (for me), would I use Windows at all unless I had to for work? And would I replace OS X 10.8 with Win8 as my primary OS? Quite simply: hell no. You'll have to pry this rMBP out of my cold dead hands (not just because Retina is such a game changer visually - I still MUCH prefer the speed, power, efficiency, apps and overall experience of OS X. It's no competition IMO). Whether Win8 is a winner on touch devices like Surface, time will tell. Metro/Win8 is nice enough but there are next to zero apps for it. I'm also still not convinced having the 'old desktop' on a tablet really is what people are going to want. Obviously it's a stopgap until Win8 takes off but is it really much of a selling point? Anyone who has done RDP or Citrix from an iPad can get an idea of what it's like (I've used it enough times to know): It's OK in a pinch, but shoot me if I had to use it to actually get serious work done. Microsoft have definitely thrown a Hail Mary here, not long to find out if it will work...
- numo16 14y ago
  > I'm also still not convinced having the 'old desktop' on a tablet really is what people are going to want Just a note that ARM tablets running WinRT will not have the desktop, except for few Microsoft programs, specifically office. So, we really don't need to worry too much about the old desktop on a tablet problem. For tablets like the surface pro, running Win8 x86, I don't see why using a mouse would be a big deal if you are power user-y enough to specifically get the not ARM version of the tablet.
pbz 14y ago
This is a classic example of solving the vendor's problem rather than the user's problem. A unified UI is scratching MS's itch. They have a problem with tablets eating away at their pie so they sacrifice usability because they don't want to have to write two different OSes, or rather two experiences. They already tried this when they brought the mouse to a phone, now they do the reverse.
ehosca 14y ago
windows 8 is particularly bad on a 30 inch monitor when running its native metro apps in full screen with no ability to re-size anything. this may work great for a 10 inch tablet screen but its a serious problem for any modern professional workstation/content creation setup. i also had issues (explorer freezing) with my external USB3 drive even for simple things like copying files back and forth. it seems like with each iteration of Windows the basic file copy operation gets slower and slower. all this on hardware that's current. (win7 experience score 7.9) i'd rather be focused on making cheese instead of figuring out who moved it where.
- numo16 14y ago
  How likely are people using a professional workstation/content creation setup to use metro? Until their creation/development/productivity apps are developed and optimized for the type of machines they use (large monitors, etc..) as metro apps, they'll continue to use them in the desktop as they always have. I think the only time I really see the metro/start screen when I'm in windows 8 is when I'm developing metro apps, everything else I see in the desktop.
- mkhalil 14y ago
  Actually the Windows RT apps (metro apps) are REQUIRED (if they want to be in the store) to support split screening and they change their orientation to do so as well.
makecheck 14y ago
It's good to see an article that focuses on more than the usual changes people obsess about in Windows 8. These "not bad" changes in Windows 8 also underscore a recurring problem with software: people are forced to choose between "take the good and the bad" or "nothing", they can't just take the "good". Software updates are too big and bundled when the reality is that a lot of components could sensibly be upgraded by themselves. Changes in Task Manager for instance could have been folded into any version of Windows to date, and if a few programmers had access to the right source code I'm sure they could have added this at least to XP. Yet they can't, and Microsoft won't, and users of any version other than 8 are kept from a perfectly sensible improvement. Rather than charging $200 for an "upgrade", sometimes I think it would make a lot more sense if you could pay Microsoft $10 for the "new system utilities package" (which would update your Windows XP Task Manager alone, and whatever else falls into that category). In other words, don't restrict access to the truly useful upgrades just because no one wants Metro.
- jinushaun 14y ago
  Best idea I've heard to date regarding Windows 8. I would pay to get the Win8 desktop improvements on Windows 7: task manager, file transfer dialog, file explorer ribbon, etc.
  - WiseWeasel 14y ago
    Explorer Ribbon is an improvement?
    - Refefer 14y ago
      You have your workflow, he/she has theirs.
    - recursive 14y ago
      Yes.
  - kenjackson 14y ago
    Why not just get Win8 then? You want them to create two product lines because you want to keep the start button? Furthermore, when someone does send you a link for a Win8 app you won't be able to run it. Or if you want to developer a Win8 app then you won't be able to. I've been using Win8 since the release preview as my main desktop machine and as a desktop OS it's almost strictly better than Win7. The Metro UI is just a curiosity at the moment as I don't have a touch screen, but Win8 is still a better desktop OS than Win7.
makmanalp 14y ago
> There's a bunch of folks who have said that you have to "swipe up" or "slide away" from the Login or Lock screen to log in. Some websites have even suggested you disable the lock screen. That is stupid and wrong cough NBCNews cough and you shouldn't turn off the lock screen. Just press any key. Or just start typing. Or click the mouse. Or ANYTHING. You don't have to "swipe up" to log in just click or press anything. What happened to affordances? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordance All these people aren't stupid. They're coming up with these crazy ideas because they don't know what else to do. One task of good design is to make it obvious what I can do and how I can do it. No one likes to discover, 3 months later, that you could do a 3 finger pinch with a middle finger wiggle gesture to do what you wanted. I shouldn't have to sit there and try all the combos of what I can do.
- ender7 14y ago
  In older versions of Windows 8, swiping up was indeed necessary. And, in fact, there was an affordance (of sorts) to let you know that that was what you were supposed to do: if you did anything that was not a swipe-up, the screen bounced up slightly, revealing a little bit of the login screen underneath. After seeing that, it was a little more obvious what to do. Now, obviously that was still a pain in the ass and Microsoft wisely axed that requirement for mouse-based computers. Now I think things are much better -- yes, there is no affordance telling you what to do, but if you do literally _anything_, then you get what you wanted. That's not too bad.
  - nigelsampson 14y ago
    It's had the "do anything" behavior since the Consumer Preview back in February.
- joe_the_user 14y ago
  Yes, affordance... Any interface has to take into account a variety of "cognative styles". Some people, when they don't know what to do, start exploring and discover what to do. But people just freeze and do nothing until they discover the right thing. If you making a mass-market UI, you have to take both styles into account, especially when you are talking about entry-points and exit-points.
jfb 14y ago
I'm always surprised at how many of my non-techie friends struggle with keyboard shortcuts; it seems to be deeply counterintuitive to me, some of the contortions that people go through because, cognitively, they wont or can't devote space to the shortcuts. I have a sneaking suspicion that the sort of fearful respect with which they treat computers is the norm. Anything that makes using a computer simpler is IMHO a good thing; if it increases the utility f computers for the 99% at the cost of messing with the expectations of the 1%, well that seems like a reasonable trade off to make.
mavis 14y ago
Hadn't heard about Hyper-V support getting added. Goodbye VirtualBox.
jpxxx 14y ago
As someone who is spent the last 20 years of my life on a computer for a minimum of 10 hours a day, I can confirm that Windows 8 stumped me for 5 to 10 minutes while I tried to figure out how to invoke the login screen. While I am so thrilled that this power user enjoyed his experience, mine was infuriating for the first two hours and made me feel stupid. Those with dramatically less patience and investment in personal computing will probably feel the same way.
- hackinthebochs 14y ago
  Perhaps this is a good experience for all developers to have at one point or another. I'm sure the majority of everyday users feel like this all the time. It's good to gain some perspective once a decade.
- timc3 14y ago
  I have zero patience, want complete tasks with the minimum of fuss, but if found if stopped trying. To wrk things out with W8 and instead just tried to do them how thy should work then I was able to complete tasks so damn quickly. It was quiet a shock because I am used to investing time in learning tools ( openindiana and VIM I am looking at you) and totally expected to go into the experience expecting the same, but I found myself just thinking about the task at hand and not so much interacting with a computer.
BasDirks 14y ago
Once in a while I will throw out a useless and nonconstructive comment: Isn't it super cute to see these windows "power-users" at work? Pretending that their new OS is for anything other than their grandma checking their email? And look at all you "hackers" congratulating Microsoft for an improvement on the dumbest series of operating systems (per dollar spent on it) of the last two decades. Awww, the intellectual poverty is really adorable.
hhudolet 14y ago
I really didn't like idea of mixing metro with normal desktop style of work. Now, after two weeks of using it on work and at home, I can just say that it works great - metro doesn't interfere with desktop apps, I'm using them like i did on win7, and win8 is better with regular desktop style of work in every way! Startup/shutdown speed is also totally awesome, even I basically don't power off my computer, never. So, now, when there's no much metro style apps, win8 as desktop OS works great, and in about one year when Store fills up, it'll be even better. Other things I really like that are much improved over win7: HyperV inside OS, ISO Mount, multi-monitor support (taskbar, wallpapers), cloud integration, copy/delete/move dialogs with speed graph, task manager.
meatpopsicle 14y ago
I especially liked the "Disclaimer: I don't work for the Windows Team" line. Nowhere does he say anything about Microsoft proper, just the Windows Team. Just wait, in 6 months, we'll see that Mr. Hanselman was paid for this pro-Metro blog post. By then, the positive spin will have made us all forget the past two months of anti-Metro postings.

168 points by nigelsampson 14y ago

DodgyEggplant 14y ago

Something weird or hard to catch in those screenshots. Can't put the finger where though

vacri 14y ago
Glass isn't enabled?
- Auguste 14y ago
  Wasn't Aero removed altogether to make way for Metro?
  - panacea 14y ago
    I think you mean [+], the interface paradigm formerly know as Metro.

lmm 14y ago

So I guess windows 8 is fine for super-experts who know all the shortcuts, as well as for the completely new. But I expect both categories make up quite a small proportion of the userbase.

ralfn 14y ago
This seems a more common trend. Windows really was the exception, where they aimed to please neither professionals, nor "average consumers", but this mythical "poweruser". They didnt exist, Microsoft created them. And that was not a good thing. Many of them had a beaten wife syndrome: they became experts because even doing mundane trivial tasks, like burning a cd, organising your documents, installing software, required "poweruser level skills". Now they are afraid of change. They worry, they have to relearn all they know. They prefer to stick to the man they already know. Sure, he may beat them, but after all these years they know where its going hurt, and what his triggers are. Who knows how much more another man will beat them? Im glad Microsoft is cleaning ship, and i understand that the windows "power users" will need counseling. I dont like the walled garden future though. But wouldnt it be great if my mom buys a new pc and she was actually capable of doing things with it, like she can with her ipad, without needing the assistance of a power user? So, there i stand: death to the poweruser. They have to either man up and get professional, or lounge in the casual area, but lets not have them keep things back. From people being scared of shortcuts or powerusers dismissing linux because they have nightmares of terminal commands. Grow a pair, or embrace the new usability for casual users.
- spinchange 14y ago
  >Im glad Microsoft is cleaning ship, and i understand that the windows "power users" will need counseling. I think the subtext of these posts is that time will tell if they're cleaning ship or just filling it with a whole new generation of powerusers around a system designed primarily for casual use. That's nothing to say if casual users find it useful either. Ultimately the whole casual/power user is sort of a false dichotomy. On a long enough curve, all users are powerusers for their case.
  - ralfn 14y ago
    I agree that time will tell if they were able to clean the ship succesfully. But all the complaining about how radical the changes are for powerusers at least suggest they are honestly trying for once. I like the curve analogy. It seems to suggest that good UI is like a partial ordering of usecases, where there is a clear relationship between complexity, position on the learning curve and popularity of the usecase. From that perspective one might say the traditional windows desktop starts off its learning curve with too much complexity and puts system maintainance tasks too far down on the curve.
- gizmo686 14y ago
  What I don't like is that Windows is forcing users into a specific interface paradigm. In the Linux world, most distributions offer a wide variety of desktop paradigms, so when Ubuntu wanted to switch to Unity, users were just a couple of clicks away from logging into Ubuntu Classic (Gnome2), or if they don't like any of the ones that come pre-installed, they can easily install others. That way, you can have one computer with a "traditional" interface (Gnome2, qvwm...), an innovative interface (Gnome3, Unity...), and different types that just never got mainstream attention (xmonad, Awesome ...) Besides giving users choice and creating competition, this allows people to experiment and inovate with new systems with much less risk than Windows model of forcing people to use their latest and hoping for the best.

podperson 14y ago

Good article -- more constructive than whining -- but none of this seems easy to learn (or remember) which is probably the problem.

sequoia 14y ago
If you use windows regularly it is easy to learn/remember. Win+E.xplorer Win+D.esktop Win+left move win left. Start there then learn a new one every few days, soon you'll be a power user ;)
- DeepDuh 14y ago
  I'm pretty sure podperson wasn't talking about himself. The main problem with Win8 seems to be that it's going to be difficult to learn for not so technically versed people, e.g. at least 80% of their userbase. And no, it's not true that they will just 'stay on win7'. a) They don't even know what version they're on anyway, b) they will just buy whatever is in store. I expect a massive wave of complaints to store support and OEM support hotlines, possibly enough to give some traction to easy-to-use preinstalled linux distros.
  - gizmo686 14y ago
    From a usability standpoint, Windows 8 seems to be one of the easiest full desktop OSes I've seen, the windows key takes to to a large icon screen with all of your programs, and you click on the one you want to run. I think that some of the decisions made to accomplish that goal hurt productivity for more experienced users, and those experienced users experience that as a hard interface. I had the same reaction when I had to use windows 7 after years of a tiling window manager and the terminal.
- teamonkey 14y ago
  The Win+arrow keys work in Win7 and are fantastic for developers, especially for those that work with multiple displays. Whenever I have to go back to Vista I miss those hotkeys the most.
keithpeter 14y ago

TazeTSchnitzel 14y ago

I really like the new Windows 8 Task Manager. It actually works as you would expect!

nhebb 14y ago

I'm an avid Win+{Key} user, so I won't have problem adapting. My family, though ... I'm not so sure. I'm a Windows developer, and I confess that I haven't tried Windows 8 yet. I'm usually eager to try new OS's and learn new things, but this time I'm not. I think it's a sense of dread about having to spent several hours learning an environment that just seems tedious.

danieldk 14y ago
I guess it's not really important. Many companies and consumers will stay for Windows 7 for a while and Windows 8 will enter the markets primarily via tablets. By the time Windows 8 SP1 or Windows 9 we'll see how that strategy worked out, and they'll probably tune the experience to make it an acceptable desktop operating system (either on real desktops or docked x86 tablets). That said, I have used Windows 8 out of curiosity for some weeks (as a UNIX user since 1994), and I have to admit that I quite liked it. I didn't really use Metro, except for checking Facebook and Twitter every now and then. Of course, I am not a regular Windows user who has learnt usage patterns over the years, but I think there's also a lot of inertia.
- melling 14y ago
  Microsoft has a 90% desktop market share. How many new PC's are sold every year? Win8 sounds like a solid product so I think the adoption rate will be good. Is there really a really to ask for Win7 on a new PC after Win8 is released?
  - sigkill 14y ago
    You've got a point. I've been scouring the internet for an MSDN iso to go with the key. On certain ocean-theme based web sites I see people activating Windows 8 by the automated phone option. Assuming this is legitimate, is it a bug from Microsoft's side? Strategically, since this represents a paradigm shift I can't help but have this sneaky suspicion that MS is going a bit lax on pirates. I mean, they are trying your new PC OS, aren't they? Once you've got them converted, you can milk them in the future directly (when they buy Windows phones/tablets) or indirectly (when they recommend the entire Windows eco-system to their family/friends by bragging about how they got their copy and how awesome it is).

hdivider 14y ago

I've been using Windows 8 for months (always upgrading to the latest version), and don't have any problems whatsoever. In fact, I'm certain the thing actually runs way faster than Win7. This is because I've basically got everything configured like Windows 7 (I don't really use the Start screen), but the Win+(key) combination is what makes the difference. Take a typical almost-every-day activity for instance: checking the weather report. On Win7 (unless you had things specially configured for this event), you'd have to go online via a browser, find a suitable website, and wait for results - quite possibly having to physically type in your location if the site couldn't get it automatically. On Windows 8, I just press Windows + (the letters w e a) and the search instantly finds the Weather app - I've got it open in less than 0.3 seconds, and the app itself fetches the data in just a few seconds. This kind of stuff works straight out of the box, and wasn't possible on Win7. It shows that even desktop-only users like me can make at least >some< good use of the RT apps.

wazoox 14y ago
> On Windows 8, I just press Windows + (the letters w e a) and the search instantly finds the Weather app Good to see that they got this done at last. OS X had spotlight for what, 7 years?
- sp332 14y ago
  It's not really about search. If you had a weather app installed already, Vista and 7 would do the same. But I guess it's nice that there's a built-in weather app now?
- bornhuetter 14y ago
  Its been in Windows since Vista.
  - pedalpete 14y ago
    Unfortunately it was always slow in Vista, and not as well implemented as Spotlight. To me, spotlight is the shining light of my mac. Is the Win8 search faster and does it have a better design? I haven't heard anything about it.

ck2 14y ago

Windows 8 is the Digg of OS. Complete redesign for no purpose at all. And the fact they HAD a start menu interface until the final release (it was in the beta/candidates) is just a bigger insult. W8 is actually usable once you add back in the start menu and have it go immediately to the desktop via a 3rd party program. Why microsoft didn't allow that option when they original did, is clear demonstration of them being obstinant. Once again the lesson is - if you must change your product: 1. change it gradually 2. give an option for the old way

vitobcn 14y ago
I wouldn't say for no purpose at all. From my perspective there seems to be a very clear purpose: unifying the interface across platforms, which is one of the disadvantages they had when compared to Apple. With Windows 8, they will basically have the same UI for desktops, tablets and phones. Even hotmail.com's look has been revamped into outlook.com; and not only that, but Microsoft went as far to even update their logo from 1987, to match their new tile approach. Were all these changes necessary? Time will tell, but strategically it seems to make sense to unify the desktop experience (where they are dominant) to grow 2 of their new market segments: windows phone and tablet (surface).
- css771 14y ago
  That's all fine for Microsoft's business strategy? But what does Win8 bring to the table for me, the consumer, that I couldn't have already gotten by using an 3rd party app on win7/xp?
- ck2 14y ago
  Windows/Metro on mobile has terrible sales. Why would they want to unify DOWN to that level? It's crazy how much a lead Microsoft had with personal computers in the 80s and how far they've fallen. Once arm starts becoming powerful enough for desktops, Windows is pretty much done and the days of the wintel tax are over. We're almost there, give it about 3-4 years.
  - corporalagumbo 14y ago

Negitivefrags 14y ago

I really love the improvements in Windows 8 that have been made to the standard desktop applications. It's just a shame that they bolted on Metro and then force feed it to you by making it your start menu. The metro interface is truly unintuitive. I feel more at home on in OS X than I do in Metro, and I hate OS X.

allwein 14y ago
I wouldn't be surprised to see some pushback from "normal" Windows users that return new machines because they expected "windows" and got "some sort of tile OS".

jader201 14y ago

> Here's another crazy idea for shutting down your PC or Laptop - Press the Power Button. You can thank Windows for this. Back in the day when we went from DOS to Windows, this notion of a "proper shutdown" was introduced, and God forbid you press the power button, or bad things would happen. I'm not positive Windows was the first to do this, but I think it's safe to say it was the one that started this habit for most people. And now, it has became so engraved in our brain that it's nearly impossible to un-train. I to this day never use the power button on any device to shut it down out of uncertainty that I don't know what will happen[1] if I do. [1]http://www.aeropause.com/wordpress/archives/images/2008/11/accf-resetti.jpg http://www.aeropause.com/wordpress/archives/images/2008/11/a...

stinos 14y ago
I use power buttons all the time and never had any serious, or maybe just any, problem with it whatsoever. It also makes 100% sense: press button to power on, press button again to power off. Just like in the analog days.
masklinn 14y ago
In the very rare cases I need to reboot or shut down my macbook, I'll press the power button: it pops up a standard 4-button dialog with [Restart] on [SPC] and [Shutdown] on [Return]. Also available are [Sleep] and [Cancel] (on [Esc]). Way faster than going through the Apple menu.
dhughes 14y ago
FYI over at Reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/ysty8/windows_8_shut_down_is_a_lie/ http://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/ysty8/windows_8_sh... It seems shutting down just "mini hibernates" it does not shutdown Windows 8, you need to choose restart when installing updates.
ekianjo 14y ago
The AmigaOS, since the beginning, had no problem to deal with power off-s. That's only when I arrived on the PC that I felt very strange to have to do a software shut down instead of pressing a hardware button. Nonsense.

Bill_Dimm 14y ago

I haven't used Win8, so maybe I'm completely off-base here, but from the article it sounds like removal of the Start Menu has made it difficult to do a lot of things without either typing in commands or memorizing special key combinations (see, for example, the section called "Run Power User or Administrative Tools - WinKey+X is EVERYTHING"). So, how does anyone get anything done using Win8 on a tablet that doesn't have a keyboard?

jodoherty 14y ago
Just out of curiosity, does anyone try to get things done with a tablet? With the exception of pen-based note taking and drawing, all the activities I do on a tablet are consumption based (reading, web browsing, etc.) and easy to accomplish using Windows 8's metro interface. With that in mind, I think the added keyboard shortcuts really help clean up the interface for tablet users while giving desktop and notebook users a fast way of getting things done. But to answer your question, I think the real plan is that you don't try to do your work on a Windows 8 tablet without a keyboard. Instead, you get a lightweight, convertible Windows 8 tablet. That way, you can have your cake and eat it too.
numo16 14y ago
Actually, you can even get around the need for shortcut keys for admin tools if you really need to. Admin tools can be added to the start screen from the settings menu on the home screen: Settings -> Tiles -> "Show administrative tools".For other applications, if you don't want to interact with the tiles, you can hit the Win key and just start typing to search for applications, just as you could in Win7.

simplexion 14y ago

If you pander to people who are scared of change you will move forward so slowly you might as well stop. I feel that Microsoft haven't pushed hard enough for change. I'm tired of all the people complaining about change. I love Unity on Ubuntu. It took a little getting used to but it didn't stop my computer from being functional. I could do everything I could before just in a slightly different way. Change is awesome and all you bitches need to stop tripping on some old bullshit.

stinos 14y ago
while you do have a point, is it really necessary to throw insults and hip bitchin' lingo around?
eckyptang 14y ago
You in the minority of people who actually give a shit about the thing that sits in front of them in the office and find it interesting. The rest of the planet just want it to work just how it always did and piss off at the end of the day so they can go home, cook dinner, dig holes in the garden, watch television, build LEGO with their kids and play golf. Our job as software engineers is to SERVE those people unconditionally, make their lives less laborious and to reduce the burden of their jobs. After all what else is technology for? Marketing driven change does nothing but enslave people further and demand more attention. Incremental changes and improvements are much more useful as they allow people to adapt slowly without having to deal with life-changing events every few years. To hell with everyone who doesn't see it this way - you are doing a disservice to humanity.
- recoiledsnake 14y ago
  That way there would no progress at all. When Windows 95 came out, there was a huge bunch of folks that wanted to stick to Windows 3.11 because Windows 95 was a big change. There was even an animation at boot-up that pointed to the Start button saying 'Click Here'. If we listened to those folks, we would not even have a task bar that no wants to switch from now. Also, see the below: The Macintosh uses an experimental pointing device called a 'mouse.' There is no evidence that people want to use these things. -- John Dvorak

nileshk 14y ago

I love seeing useful keyboard shortcuts being added. I've always used various Window key shortcuts whenever I use Windows. I even use the context menu key. But I wish the Window key was more like the Cmd key in OS X. That is, I wish it was a modifier key that can be used in key combinations, and ideally have it be the primary modifier. When you have 3 different modifier keys, this increases the number of key combinations exponentially vs 2. So take for example a cross platform IDE that is keyboard shortcut friendly, with lots of actions you can assign to keyboard shortcuts, like Eclipse. In the Windows version you only have shortcuts that can be a combination of Ctrl and Alt plus another key. With OS X (and Linux), you can have any combination of Ctrl, Alt, and Command plus another key, giving many more possibilities. I miss the lack of context menu key support in OS X, though. As a UNIX/Emacs user, a side benefit of having Command as the primary modifier key in OS X, used for many of the typical actions, is that typical OS X keyboard shortcuts don't generally get in the way of UNIX/Emacs keyboard shortcuts, which use Ctrl and Alt as modifiers exclusively. I can use Emacs keyboard shortcuts right alongside OS X keyboard shortcuts in the same application (I'm accustomed to both; for example, I might paste with either Cmd-V or Ctrl-Y, depending on whether my right hand is on the home row or not). But I don't expect that most Windows users would benefit from that particular aspect. However, I think having an extra modifier key, available to applications, would benefit a good portion of Windows users.

davidp 14y ago
> But I wish the Window key was more like the Cmd key in OS X. That is, I wish it was a modifier key that can be used in key combinations, and ideally have it be the primary modifier. I disagree; the entire point of the Windows key is that it isn't interpreted by applications. It provides instant keyboard-driven access to OS/shell functions (i.e. cross-application functions), and I love it. Linux (really X Window and window managers, I suppose) could benefit from using that key in the same way; Ubuntu's Unity does so to a limited extent. Imagine having useful keyboard-driven system/window management that's guaranteed not to conflict with any of your applications. (If that already exists, someone please clue me in, I'm less familiar with Linux than I am with Windows.)
- 14y ago

Axsuul 14y ago

The overall feeling of Windows has changed dramatically with 7 and now 8. Before it felt like a very enterprise and cold operating system. Now, it actually feels refreshing, futuristic, and dare I say hip? Great job to the Windows team for this amazing feat. As for Windows 8 itself, I feel like the Task Manager alone is something worth upgrading for.

daigoba66 14y ago
If all you want is a better task manager, download process explorer. I still use process explorer on win8.
gizmo686 14y ago
I had a very similar experience with Gnome3. After months of complaining about how they completely ruined the UI and all the other flames (enough to motivate me to switch to a tiling window manager), I logged into it to see what was going on, and it looked really cool, and seemed more productive than the old Gnome2. I suspect I would have had a simmilar experience with Windows 8 if not for its horrid use of green, but that was an early developers preview, and I will be shocked if they haven't improved the cosmetics for the general release.

peacebeuntoyou 14y ago

Thank God I'm using Linux now - and a tiling window manager... I have been too long on the MS side. That's my only regret.

cs702 14y ago

Quoting from the article: "It's initially confusing but I have been using it every day all day since it was released and have got myself productive again." In other words, it's just like learning to use a different OS!

eckyptang 14y ago
I think it's more: "In other words, it knackered my productivity for a while". This is not acceptable. Also, don't forget Scott Hanselman works for Microsoft in the web platform team, so I'd say that is enough bias to ignore the article.
- leddt 14y ago
  Ignore the article ? It's just tips on how to use Win8 effectively, meant to help you get started with it. If you don't plan on using Win8, okay, you can ignore it. Besides, of course he's not gonna bash the product, but Scott usually won't lie to your face about how good something is if he thinks it's crap.
  - eckyptang 14y ago
    Sorry I should have put "ignore the positive tone of the article". I have used Windows 8 for the last 6-7 days and regardless of this information, it's still a pain to use. The learning curve doesn't go away that easily.
corporalagumbo 14y ago
So Microsoft should be condemned for, after 20 years or so of WIMP, trying something really new?
- davidwparker 14y ago
  I don't think cs702 is saying that. I'm guessing that he means it's like learning something completely different. My parents and my in-laws already had a ton of grief with changing from Office 2003 to Ribbon, when it came out; They also had trouble with XP -> 7. When they use my wife's MBP, they also have trouble. I'm pretty sure it's not going to be easy for them to use 8.

lawdawg 14y ago

When I see this image from the article: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/content/binary/Windows-Live-Writer/How-I-learned-to-stop-worry-and-learned-_1365A/image_22.png http://www.hanselman.com/blog/content/binary/Windows-Live-Wr... I have to ask myself, how can anyone think this: 1. Looks good. 2. Is ideal usage of screen real estate. And even this: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/content/binary/Windows-Live-Writer/How-I-learned-to-stop-worry-and-learned-_1365A/image_25.png http://www.hanselman.com/blog/content/binary/Windows-Live-Wr... Now you have a bunch of icons without text labels, how do you know what does what? Obviously the 3rd party apps are clear if you use them, but the main Windows apps aren't clear. For example, what is that purple icon next to the blue clouds? (And what are the blue clouds? Weather? or is the Sun weather?)

corporalagumbo 14y ago
1) Compared to a normal desktop, where most of your functional navigation is crammed into a small bar (which has pop-up cascading menus filled potentially with stacks of small application shortcuts, and lots of folders) a full screen of evenly-sized tiles with prominent identifying symbols seems okay to me. Maybe even an improvement, once you factor in live-tile info display. And certainly it seems far simpler to use - it only has one level of depth - click on anything and you're in an application. 2) Metro does look a little odd with such a tall screen. It makes more sense on a widescreen laptop or tablet display. Also he chose a pretty garish background. 3) Also remember most of these icons are legacy. Will look better when more of your apps are Metro-ised. 4) And of course Metro looks best - really only makes sense - when seen and used in motion. Metro is an extremely fluid, motion-heavy OS - traditional WIMP in comparison is as heavy and immobile as a pile of rocks. 5) Purple icon is maps. Blue clouds are skydrive (cloud service.) Sun is weather (once you've used the app once, local weather conditions are displayed on the tile.)
- slantyyz 14y ago
  >> Compared to a normal desktop, where most of your functional navigation is crammed into a small bar This is a taste thing. Myself, I'll take the crammed bar over the grid any day. Even though I'm primarily a Mac user these days, I'm a Luddite when it comes to Windows - I still prefer the look and feel of Windows 2000 over its successors.

sharms 14y ago

As someone who primarily runs Ubuntu Linux and Mountain Lion, the interfaces and screenshots in the article definitely look pretty neat. I haven't had a chance to install Windows 8, and I definitely don't like the ideas about restricting the platform more. However, from an interface perspective, am I alone in thinking that it could be a positive change? (Maybe I am jaded from going through the Ubuntu Gnome -> Unity transition)

corporalagumbo 14y ago

Nice to see someone thinking constructively about W8. Too many people have just been nit-picking, and I think failing to see what W8 represents: a radical first-step in a long-overdue next step in the evolution of computer UIs. People like us should be applauding Microsoft for their audacity, not obsessing over the details. Change is always complicated. W8 is just one step, one which Microsoft will continue to evolve. People complained when DOS was being replaced by Windows right? It had to happen eventually. Windows 7 and OS X 10.8 are really nothing more than highly-polished iterations of the basic WIMP GUI. Apple has done nice work with iOS but seems loathe to rethink OS X beyond tossing in a few multitouch gestures. Enough has changed in computing technology, from processor power to network connectivity to interface technologies to the whole suite of activities people use computers for, that WIMP is really starting to show its age. And even more will change over the next 20 years - we should prepare ourselves for departures even more radical than W8. The WIMP desktop isn't the pinnacle for UI evolution. At least, let's hope it isn't! It is pretty clunky. Microsoft, now in the weaker position to Apple, is the company to usher in that shift. We should be glad we have a Microsoft in 2012.

gizmo686 14y ago
Do you mind pointing out what radical first step Windows 8 is taking. The metro interface stikes me as an adaptation of smart phone interfaces, and the desktop is a minor change to the old desktop system.
- corporalagumbo 14y ago
  (apologies for the long response) I see W8 as a reaction to a new world of computing: more powerful computers, a proliferation of device formats, ubiquitous connectivity, a dissolving desktop-cloud barrier, pervasive social/identity services, mass-consumer computing, mostly for a whole emerging range of novel, non-traditional computer tasks. The WIMP desktop is a legacy product from the days of computers as workstations and computer-users as skilled specialists. The desktop is very static and rigid. Windows only move when clicked and dragged, only change size when their edges are pulled. The desktop can become as cluttered as you want with multiple windows and desktop folders and icons. This made sense in 1995, but now computers are far more powerful, and graphical display techniques are better too. W8 is fluid and dynamic where WIMP is sluggish and static. Tap or click on a tile and a whole new screen flips up, filling the screen. Even compared to iOS, Metro is far more dynamic, mainly due to its radically simpler design language. The basic fonts and block colours of Metro can squish and stretch and dynamically resize in a way which is largely impossible with the carefully detailed chrome of iOS. This fluidity also extends to the way the tasks flow into one another in the OS. Talking mostly from my experience with WP7, it’s remarkable how wall-less the OS can be. The way you can move from a messaging thread to your messagee’s contact card, simply by tapping their name, and seeing all their latest social activity on Facebook, is great. Ideally, Metro is wall-less - the opposite of iOS’s carefully segregated app ghettos. The platonic Metro ideal is that all the parts of the OS flow seamlessly together (it remains to be seen how successfully Microsoft can pull this off - also this quite different model may be difficult for developers used to iOS to get their heads around and take full advantage of). Furthermore, visually the Metro frontend is clearly the cleanest and simplest consumer OS ever. It's a massive decluttering effort to display only relevant info, and much much easier to understand than any previous OS. And Microsoft is aiming to make this design language uniform across phones, tablets and PCs, and their web presence. It has the most common net identity services baked in - and the whole platform is tied together with Windows ID, and all your files and info synced seamlessly across all of your Windows devices with Skydrive. So, for example, if I made an account on a W8 PC, it would prepare all of my contacts from Facebook and my calendar appointments because it knows me from my Windows phone. The aim as I understand it is radical flexibility - you can shift seamlessly from device to device and the environment is consistent throughout - it just works. Also part of the idea with Metro is to dissolve the web/desktop barrier - instead of just accessing web services through a browser and some dedicated programs (IM, torrent clients etc) and perhaps some desktop widgets, the web is baked in to the skeleton of the OS. Which makes sense. Not sure if I'm explaining this well... As I said, it remains to be seen whether Microsoft makes good on this potential. I’m just trying to articulate what I think Metro represents, what I sense is possible here. And trying to do so without just sounding like Microsoft PR :) It seems like maybe a lot of people are offended by W8 because it's too simple and potentially interferes with the quite complex workflows I assume average HN readers do with their computers. But for the average user, I think W8 is going to be great. Computers need to be democratised further - right now, the vast majority have almost no idea how to use WIMP. It’s just too complex. OS X is just as bad - in some ways even worse than W7! The value of W8 will be through hiding 95% of the compexity of computers from the average user, while preserving the technical backend for more advanced users. Normal users get a massively more approachable experience, allowing them to think less and spend more time doing the stuff they really want to with their computers. Advanced users can still go deeper (unlike Apple, which seems intent on locking down their entire system at the expense of advanced desktop users - and without giving any real gains in useability to justify it!) People forget, I think, that Microsoft focuses a lot on useability. Metro is the result of a lot of hard work thinking how to make computers more useable. Apple focuses on products that wow people. But from my experience with the iPad, it seems Apple thinks less about useability than people might expect (non-resizable thumb keyboard, I’m looking at you...) I think W8 is best seen as a transition product, making the first steps away from the old WIMP desktop. So yeah, right now, they haven't tinkered with the old desktop much. But a split is forming: between the simple easy-to-use frontend of the OS and the technical backend. Expect this split to become more coherent in W9.

EpaL 14y ago

Just installed Win 8 in Parallels on an rMBP and I have to be honest, I don't hate it as much as when I tried the preview release in a window on an iMac. Some of the tips in this article are great and the more you dig, the more you find they actually HAVE improved a lot of things in the 'old' OS as well (this seems to get ignored/glossed over in alot of reviews, especially the negative ones). So far, Metro/Win8 is just a toy without touch. I honestly can't see myself getting much work done here but it seems to keep out of the way enough. Ultimately (for me), would I use Windows at all unless I had to for work? And would I replace OS X 10.8 with Win8 as my primary OS? Quite simply: hell no. You'll have to pry this rMBP out of my cold dead hands (not just because Retina is such a game changer visually - I still MUCH prefer the speed, power, efficiency, apps and overall experience of OS X. It's no competition IMO). Whether Win8 is a winner on touch devices like Surface, time will tell. Metro/Win8 is nice enough but there are next to zero apps for it. I'm also still not convinced having the 'old desktop' on a tablet really is what people are going to want. Obviously it's a stopgap until Win8 takes off but is it really much of a selling point? Anyone who has done RDP or Citrix from an iPad can get an idea of what it's like (I've used it enough times to know): It's OK in a pinch, but shoot me if I had to use it to actually get serious work done. Microsoft have definitely thrown a Hail Mary here, not long to find out if it will work...

numo16 14y ago
> I'm also still not convinced having the 'old desktop' on a tablet really is what people are going to want Just a note that ARM tablets running WinRT will not have the desktop, except for few Microsoft programs, specifically office. So, we really don't need to worry too much about the old desktop on a tablet problem. For tablets like the surface pro, running Win8 x86, I don't see why using a mouse would be a big deal if you are power user-y enough to specifically get the not ARM version of the tablet.

pbz 14y ago

This is a classic example of solving the vendor's problem rather than the user's problem. A unified UI is scratching MS's itch. They have a problem with tablets eating away at their pie so they sacrifice usability because they don't want to have to write two different OSes, or rather two experiences. They already tried this when they brought the mouse to a phone, now they do the reverse.

ehosca 14y ago

windows 8 is particularly bad on a 30 inch monitor when running its native metro apps in full screen with no ability to re-size anything. this may work great for a 10 inch tablet screen but its a serious problem for any modern professional workstation/content creation setup. i also had issues (explorer freezing) with my external USB3 drive even for simple things like copying files back and forth. it seems like with each iteration of Windows the basic file copy operation gets slower and slower. all this on hardware that's current. (win7 experience score 7.9) i'd rather be focused on making cheese instead of figuring out who moved it where.

numo16 14y ago
How likely are people using a professional workstation/content creation setup to use metro? Until their creation/development/productivity apps are developed and optimized for the type of machines they use (large monitors, etc..) as metro apps, they'll continue to use them in the desktop as they always have. I think the only time I really see the metro/start screen when I'm in windows 8 is when I'm developing metro apps, everything else I see in the desktop.
mkhalil 14y ago
Actually the Windows RT apps (metro apps) are REQUIRED (if they want to be in the store) to support split screening and they change their orientation to do so as well.

makecheck 14y ago

It's good to see an article that focuses on more than the usual changes people obsess about in Windows 8. These "not bad" changes in Windows 8 also underscore a recurring problem with software: people are forced to choose between "take the good and the bad" or "nothing", they can't just take the "good". Software updates are too big and bundled when the reality is that a lot of components could sensibly be upgraded by themselves. Changes in Task Manager for instance could have been folded into any version of Windows to date, and if a few programmers had access to the right source code I'm sure they could have added this at least to XP. Yet they can't, and Microsoft won't, and users of any version other than 8 are kept from a perfectly sensible improvement. Rather than charging $200 for an "upgrade", sometimes I think it would make a lot more sense if you could pay Microsoft $10 for the "new system utilities package" (which would update your Windows XP Task Manager alone, and whatever else falls into that category). In other words, don't restrict access to the truly useful upgrades just because no one wants Metro.

jinushaun 14y ago
Best idea I've heard to date regarding Windows 8. I would pay to get the Win8 desktop improvements on Windows 7: task manager, file transfer dialog, file explorer ribbon, etc.
- WiseWeasel 14y ago
  Explorer Ribbon is an improvement?
  - Refefer 14y ago
    You have your workflow, he/she has theirs.
  - recursive 14y ago
    Yes.
- kenjackson 14y ago
  Why not just get Win8 then? You want them to create two product lines because you want to keep the start button? Furthermore, when someone does send you a link for a Win8 app you won't be able to run it. Or if you want to developer a Win8 app then you won't be able to. I've been using Win8 since the release preview as my main desktop machine and as a desktop OS it's almost strictly better than Win7. The Metro UI is just a curiosity at the moment as I don't have a touch screen, but Win8 is still a better desktop OS than Win7.

makmanalp 14y ago

> There's a bunch of folks who have said that you have to "swipe up" or "slide away" from the Login or Lock screen to log in. Some websites have even suggested you disable the lock screen. That is stupid and wrong cough NBCNews cough and you shouldn't turn off the lock screen. Just press any key. Or just start typing. Or click the mouse. Or ANYTHING. You don't have to "swipe up" to log in just click or press anything. What happened to affordances? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordance All these people aren't stupid. They're coming up with these crazy ideas because they don't know what else to do. One task of good design is to make it obvious what I can do and how I can do it. No one likes to discover, 3 months later, that you could do a 3 finger pinch with a middle finger wiggle gesture to do what you wanted. I shouldn't have to sit there and try all the combos of what I can do.

ender7 14y ago
In older versions of Windows 8, swiping up was indeed necessary. And, in fact, there was an affordance (of sorts) to let you know that that was what you were supposed to do: if you did anything that was not a swipe-up, the screen bounced up slightly, revealing a little bit of the login screen underneath. After seeing that, it was a little more obvious what to do. Now, obviously that was still a pain in the ass and Microsoft wisely axed that requirement for mouse-based computers. Now I think things are much better -- yes, there is no affordance telling you what to do, but if you do literally _anything_, then you get what you wanted. That's not too bad.
- nigelsampson 14y ago
  It's had the "do anything" behavior since the Consumer Preview back in February.
joe_the_user 14y ago
Yes, affordance... Any interface has to take into account a variety of "cognative styles". Some people, when they don't know what to do, start exploring and discover what to do. But people just freeze and do nothing until they discover the right thing. If you making a mass-market UI, you have to take both styles into account, especially when you are talking about entry-points and exit-points.

jfb 14y ago

I'm always surprised at how many of my non-techie friends struggle with keyboard shortcuts; it seems to be deeply counterintuitive to me, some of the contortions that people go through because, cognitively, they wont or can't devote space to the shortcuts. I have a sneaking suspicion that the sort of fearful respect with which they treat computers is the norm. Anything that makes using a computer simpler is IMHO a good thing; if it increases the utility f computers for the 99% at the cost of messing with the expectations of the 1%, well that seems like a reasonable trade off to make.

mavis 14y ago

Hadn't heard about Hyper-V support getting added. Goodbye VirtualBox.

jpxxx 14y ago

As someone who is spent the last 20 years of my life on a computer for a minimum of 10 hours a day, I can confirm that Windows 8 stumped me for 5 to 10 minutes while I tried to figure out how to invoke the login screen. While I am so thrilled that this power user enjoyed his experience, mine was infuriating for the first two hours and made me feel stupid. Those with dramatically less patience and investment in personal computing will probably feel the same way.

hackinthebochs 14y ago
Perhaps this is a good experience for all developers to have at one point or another. I'm sure the majority of everyday users feel like this all the time. It's good to gain some perspective once a decade.
timc3 14y ago
I have zero patience, want complete tasks with the minimum of fuss, but if found if stopped trying. To wrk things out with W8 and instead just tried to do them how thy should work then I was able to complete tasks so damn quickly. It was quiet a shock because I am used to investing time in learning tools ( openindiana and VIM I am looking at you) and totally expected to go into the experience expecting the same, but I found myself just thinking about the task at hand and not so much interacting with a computer.

BasDirks 14y ago

Once in a while I will throw out a useless and nonconstructive comment: Isn't it super cute to see these windows "power-users" at work? Pretending that their new OS is for anything other than their grandma checking their email? And look at all you "hackers" congratulating Microsoft for an improvement on the dumbest series of operating systems (per dollar spent on it) of the last two decades. Awww, the intellectual poverty is really adorable.

hhudolet 14y ago

I really didn't like idea of mixing metro with normal desktop style of work. Now, after two weeks of using it on work and at home, I can just say that it works great - metro doesn't interfere with desktop apps, I'm using them like i did on win7, and win8 is better with regular desktop style of work in every way! Startup/shutdown speed is also totally awesome, even I basically don't power off my computer, never. So, now, when there's no much metro style apps, win8 as desktop OS works great, and in about one year when Store fills up, it'll be even better. Other things I really like that are much improved over win7: HyperV inside OS, ISO Mount, multi-monitor support (taskbar, wallpapers), cloud integration, copy/delete/move dialogs with speed graph, task manager.

meatpopsicle 14y ago

I especially liked the "Disclaimer: I don't work for the Windows Team" line. Nowhere does he say anything about Microsoft proper, just the Windows Team. Just wait, in 6 months, we'll see that Mr. Hanselman was paid for this pro-Metro blog post. By then, the positive spin will have made us all forget the past two months of anti-Metro postings.