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I believe the article is based on a wrong assumption. The author argues that everything could look more realistic and that VFX could pop more with stronger HDR,

I believe the article is based on a wrong assumption. The author argues that everything could look more realistic and that VFX could pop more with stronger HDR, but in my opinion it makes a lot of sense to keep a stylized cartoon game also stylized in its brightness choices. When you drive towards the sun, what is more fun? A realistic HDR brightness that blinds you, or a „wrong“ brightness level that helps the background stay in the background without interrupting your flow? Similarly, should eye candy like little sparks grab your attention by being the brightest object on screen? I’d say no. The hardware can handle full HDR and more brightness, but one could argue that the game is more fun with incorrect brightness scaling…

MBCook 1y ago
That’s not the problem. The game should look like a normal Mario game at a minimum. It should use its additional color palette available in HDR to look better, and the additional brightness to make make effects pop as you describe. The problem is that’s not what it’s doing. Some things pop better, but it’s not because they’re using extra colors. It may be a little brightness, but mostly it’s that everything else just got toned down so it looks kinda washed out. If they did nothing but use the expanded color palette and did not use the additional brightness at all I would be a lot happier than with what we have right now. I haven’t turned it back to SDR mode but I’m legitimately considering it. Because I suspect the game looks better that way.
- BoorishBears 1y ago
  Mario Kart World generally looks more saturated than previous games if anything, so it definitely meets that minimum. And the article is about they missed out on the optionality of using the additional gamut, but that additional gamut wouldn't intrinsically look better. It's easy enough to edit a screenshot to show us what could have been, but even in that single screenshot there are things that look worse: like the flames gained saturation but lost the depth the smoke was adding, and some reasonable atmospheric haze vanished. (similarly the game in the side-by-side has some downright awful looking elements, like the over-saturated red crystals that punch a hole through my HDR display...) Given Nintendo's track record for stylization over raw image quality, I'm not sure why this isn't just as likely them intentionally prioritizing SDR quality and taking a modest-but-safe approach to HDR... especially when the built-in screen maxes out at 450 nits.
  - zapzupnz 1y ago
    > Mario Kart World generally looks more saturated than previous games if anything, so it definitely meets that minimum. Compare any of the retro tracks to their World counterpart, then say that again. The game’s general palette and design is so washed out and bland compared to the DS, Wii, 3DS, and Tour versions of those tracks.
    - BoorishBears 1y ago
      I mean you included a title that launched on a frontlit TFT with 18-bit color and maybe 60% sRGB coverage, for example. If there's a track that's actually less saturated than it was then, it's definitely not the result of an SDR-first workflow.
- arghwhat 1y ago
  > It should use its additional color palette available in HDR to look better, and the additional brightness to make make effects pop as you describe. It could, but that's different than shouldn't. There could be good reasons for it, such as not wanting the primary gameplay to lie outside a color palette available to people playing on their TV in sRGB or in the common complete shit HDR modes that lie about their capabilities. It would be neat if more was used, but nothing about being HDR means that you should, or that it's even a good idea, to rely on the maximum capabilities. > I haven’t turned it back to SDR mode but I’m legitimately considering it. Because I suspect the game looks better that way. To be honest, without a TV with proper HDR, SDR mode will often look much better. The problem is that TVs are often quite awful when it comes to color volume, specular lighting and calibration. The SDR mode is often very untrue to the content, but stretches things within the TV capabilities to make it bright and vivid to look nice. The HDR mode on the other hand has to give up the charade, and in particular SDR tonemapped content, which if the TV didn't lie would have looked identical to SDR mode, looks really awful. A favorite of mine is to switch Apple TV's between SDR and (tone-mapped) HDR mode and see how different the main menu and YouTube app looks. I have yet to find a TV where UI doesn't look muted and bland in HDR.
_carbyau_ 1y ago
Every game I first start requires a trip to turn off music, in-game VoIP, HDR, bloom, lensflare, screenshake if possible. It's like a keyword bingo for usually poor implementations. I grant that maybe the implementation is good for any specific game you care to mention - but history has shaped my habits.
- Infernal 1y ago
  Don’t forget motion blur!
  - 3eb7988a1663 1y ago
    Motion blur is my only instant disable. I paid a lot of money and self-justification for this expensive GPU, and you want to make things look a blurry mess?
    - jasonjmcghee 1y ago
      Motion blur can look fantastic / realistic. But almost never does. Especially when it's temporal.
  - _carbyau_ 1y ago
    I had forgotten it for my comment, but not when I see it in the graphics options! Yes, that is an absolute off switch every time.
- JohnBooty 1y ago
  You automatically turn off music? The presence of in-game music is a poor implementation indicator? I am a big proponent of "there's no wrong way to enjoy a game" but wow. In nearly 50 years of gaming that's a new one for me. Congratulations. But do whatever works for you... and I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically or dismissively.
  - zapzupnz 1y ago
    I can’t believe that in 50 years, you’ve been unable to imagine people disabling music. I turn it off in games like Minecraft because it serves no purpose, and my husband routinely disables it in Factorio. Then you’ve got people with hearing difficulties I would rather hear the sound effects as they help gameplay. Truly, in 50 years, none of this has occurred to you or you’ve never witnessed it in friends or family? That seems hyperbolic
animal531 1y ago
I agree on the HDR blinding you, its mostly just a gimmick. Where it works is in for example Diablo 4 when there is something really shiny lying on the ground, which makes it pop out. Other games like Senua did actually manage to pull off an amazing sun/scene though. Because its slower they can use it to accentuate, for example you walk around a corner and go from the darkness into full on sunlight which is blinding, but then falls off so as to become bearable.
sim7c00 1y ago
HDR is a scam. u can do exactly the same with SDR. its just a different format to express things. the monitor can display what it can display. format of transfer doesn't change hardware capabilities, just how you express what u want towards them
- freeone3000 1y ago
  SDR literally has fewer brightness bits. You can tonemap with the darkest in a scene pulled to zero and the brightest to 1, but, this is not usually what the color grader intended so usually isn’t done automatically. And when you do this, you end up with gaps in the middle (like 18-bit color). So usually, a range “in the middle” is reserved for SDR, and the extra two (or four, or six) bits of brightness in HDR allow you to pull it darker or brighter.
  - sim7c00 1y ago
    thanks for your insights. my comment was overly cynical. in practice though visually , on a good (really good) monitor, you really can not see a difference. trained eyes, cannot really see a real difference. the difference becomes visible more due to a monitors own quircks not displaying accurately (mapping of this sdr/hdr to colourspace). this was posted before here on HN and i dont think its wrong. though ofcourse, technically, there are differences, which might be in some applicaitons ( but usually are not) exploited to the viewers benefit. (?? maybe?? someone with real good eyes :)) https://yedlin.net/DebunkingHDR/index.html https://yedlin.net/DebunkingHDR/index.html maybe my interpretation is wrong, but i dont think it is far off if it is. specification differences and differences in human perception are not the same thing
- brookst 1y ago
  Would you say 8 bit audio can express the same audio quality as 16 bit audio?
  - sim7c00 1y ago
    32 bit audio is higher resolution, it can have effects applied to it in higher detail. like subpixel coordinates might more clearly specify a pixels colours... anything beyond 16bit (which is streamed to your speakers) is not audible though in the sense of playing it to the speaker. it matters in processing (dsp). (44 or 48khz inguess?)
ratmeadow 1y ago
Not to detract from your point, but ironically if they created the design with a more "HDR" (i.e. physically based) colour pipeline, it would probably be easier to tune the brightness of the sun correctly...

MBCook 1y ago

That’s not the problem. The game should look like a normal Mario game at a minimum. It should use its additional color palette available in HDR to look better, and the additional brightness to make make effects pop as you describe. The problem is that’s not what it’s doing. Some things pop better, but it’s not because they’re using extra colors. It may be a little brightness, but mostly it’s that everything else just got toned down so it looks kinda washed out. If they did nothing but use the expanded color palette and did not use the additional brightness at all I would be a lot happier than with what we have right now. I haven’t turned it back to SDR mode but I’m legitimately considering it. Because I suspect the game looks better that way.

BoorishBears 1y ago
Mario Kart World generally looks more saturated than previous games if anything, so it definitely meets that minimum. And the article is about they missed out on the optionality of using the additional gamut, but that additional gamut wouldn't intrinsically look better. It's easy enough to edit a screenshot to show us what could have been, but even in that single screenshot there are things that look worse: like the flames gained saturation but lost the depth the smoke was adding, and some reasonable atmospheric haze vanished. (similarly the game in the side-by-side has some downright awful looking elements, like the over-saturated red crystals that punch a hole through my HDR display...) Given Nintendo's track record for stylization over raw image quality, I'm not sure why this isn't just as likely them intentionally prioritizing SDR quality and taking a modest-but-safe approach to HDR... especially when the built-in screen maxes out at 450 nits.
- zapzupnz 1y ago
  > Mario Kart World generally looks more saturated than previous games if anything, so it definitely meets that minimum. Compare any of the retro tracks to their World counterpart, then say that again. The game’s general palette and design is so washed out and bland compared to the DS, Wii, 3DS, and Tour versions of those tracks.
  - BoorishBears 1y ago
    I mean you included a title that launched on a frontlit TFT with 18-bit color and maybe 60% sRGB coverage, for example. If there's a track that's actually less saturated than it was then, it's definitely not the result of an SDR-first workflow.
arghwhat 1y ago
> It should use its additional color palette available in HDR to look better, and the additional brightness to make make effects pop as you describe. It could, but that's different than shouldn't. There could be good reasons for it, such as not wanting the primary gameplay to lie outside a color palette available to people playing on their TV in sRGB or in the common complete shit HDR modes that lie about their capabilities. It would be neat if more was used, but nothing about being HDR means that you should, or that it's even a good idea, to rely on the maximum capabilities. > I haven’t turned it back to SDR mode but I’m legitimately considering it. Because I suspect the game looks better that way. To be honest, without a TV with proper HDR, SDR mode will often look much better. The problem is that TVs are often quite awful when it comes to color volume, specular lighting and calibration. The SDR mode is often very untrue to the content, but stretches things within the TV capabilities to make it bright and vivid to look nice. The HDR mode on the other hand has to give up the charade, and in particular SDR tonemapped content, which if the TV didn't lie would have looked identical to SDR mode, looks really awful. A favorite of mine is to switch Apple TV's between SDR and (tone-mapped) HDR mode and see how different the main menu and YouTube app looks. I have yet to find a TV where UI doesn't look muted and bland in HDR.

_carbyau_ 1y ago

Every game I first start requires a trip to turn off music, in-game VoIP, HDR, bloom, lensflare, screenshake if possible. It's like a keyword bingo for usually poor implementations. I grant that maybe the implementation is good for any specific game you care to mention - but history has shaped my habits.

Infernal 1y ago
Don’t forget motion blur!
- 3eb7988a1663 1y ago
  Motion blur is my only instant disable. I paid a lot of money and self-justification for this expensive GPU, and you want to make things look a blurry mess?
  - jasonjmcghee 1y ago
    Motion blur can look fantastic / realistic. But almost never does. Especially when it's temporal.
- _carbyau_ 1y ago
  I had forgotten it for my comment, but not when I see it in the graphics options! Yes, that is an absolute off switch every time.
JohnBooty 1y ago
You automatically turn off music? The presence of in-game music is a poor implementation indicator? I am a big proponent of "there's no wrong way to enjoy a game" but wow. In nearly 50 years of gaming that's a new one for me. Congratulations. But do whatever works for you... and I mean that sincerely, not sarcastically or dismissively.
- zapzupnz 1y ago
  I can’t believe that in 50 years, you’ve been unable to imagine people disabling music. I turn it off in games like Minecraft because it serves no purpose, and my husband routinely disables it in Factorio. Then you’ve got people with hearing difficulties I would rather hear the sound effects as they help gameplay. Truly, in 50 years, none of this has occurred to you or you’ve never witnessed it in friends or family? That seems hyperbolic

animal531 1y ago

I agree on the HDR blinding you, its mostly just a gimmick. Where it works is in for example Diablo 4 when there is something really shiny lying on the ground, which makes it pop out. Other games like Senua did actually manage to pull off an amazing sun/scene though. Because its slower they can use it to accentuate, for example you walk around a corner and go from the darkness into full on sunlight which is blinding, but then falls off so as to become bearable.

sim7c00 1y ago

HDR is a scam. u can do exactly the same with SDR. its just a different format to express things. the monitor can display what it can display. format of transfer doesn't change hardware capabilities, just how you express what u want towards them

freeone3000 1y ago
SDR literally has fewer brightness bits. You can tonemap with the darkest in a scene pulled to zero and the brightest to 1, but, this is not usually what the color grader intended so usually isn’t done automatically. And when you do this, you end up with gaps in the middle (like 18-bit color). So usually, a range “in the middle” is reserved for SDR, and the extra two (or four, or six) bits of brightness in HDR allow you to pull it darker or brighter.
- sim7c00 1y ago
  thanks for your insights. my comment was overly cynical. in practice though visually , on a good (really good) monitor, you really can not see a difference. trained eyes, cannot really see a real difference. the difference becomes visible more due to a monitors own quircks not displaying accurately (mapping of this sdr/hdr to colourspace). this was posted before here on HN and i dont think its wrong. though ofcourse, technically, there are differences, which might be in some applicaitons ( but usually are not) exploited to the viewers benefit. (?? maybe?? someone with real good eyes :)) https://yedlin.net/DebunkingHDR/index.html https://yedlin.net/DebunkingHDR/index.html maybe my interpretation is wrong, but i dont think it is far off if it is. specification differences and differences in human perception are not the same thing
brookst 1y ago
Would you say 8 bit audio can express the same audio quality as 16 bit audio?
- sim7c00 1y ago
  32 bit audio is higher resolution, it can have effects applied to it in higher detail. like subpixel coordinates might more clearly specify a pixels colours... anything beyond 16bit (which is streamed to your speakers) is not audible though in the sense of playing it to the speaker. it matters in processing (dsp). (44 or 48khz inguess?)

ratmeadow 1y ago

Not to detract from your point, but ironically if they created the design with a more "HDR" (i.e. physically based) colour pipeline, it would probably be easier to tune the brightness of the sun correctly...