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A significant portion of the problems listed, e.g. performance, "unpredictable focus", glitches, freezes, etc., will generally be purely KiCad bugs. Others are

A significant portion of the problems listed, e.g. performance, "unpredictable focus", glitches, freezes, etc., will generally be purely KiCad bugs. Others are feature requests that there were recently released protocols for e.g. window restoration and cursor warping, but with adoption needing to pick up. Nothing negative towards KiCad team as they and the community sort things out, but it's easy for others to read this and conflate "problems with application's Wayland support" as "problems with Wayland". It's a new platform for them, and support for a new platform will always have some growing pains. Xwayland is also under continued development, and these distribution are not dropping X11 support through Xwayland, just native X11 sessions.

superkuh 1y ago
>it's easy for others to read this and conflate "problems with application's Wayland support" as "problems with Wayland". Yes, it's easy because that's explicitly what they say. >The following problems are known issues in Wayland protocols or their implementation in desktop compositors, window managers or other layers in the display stack that are beyond our ability to resolve: So we have two opposite claims. One from the developers of kicad in this write-up with examples and one from you above.
- arghwhat 1y ago
  > So we have two opposite claims. One from the developers of kicad in this write-up with examples and one from you above. You have the organizations maintaining entire Linux distributions with countless applications they support giving their vote of confidence based on their experiences. You have the organizations backing and developing Wayland. You have all the developers of Xorg ditching it and working on Wayland instead (the person vocally claiming to pick up the slack recently had almost all their work reverted when it was found to have been completely broken). That's a lot of people voting with their time (and in some cases, money) on Wayland and its capabilities. So no it's not my claim that Wayland works vs. KiCad devs, it's the claim of everyone that actually have skin in the display server game. (They will also agree that some features are missing, but things like focus, graphical glitches and performance are not Wayland issues, just application bugs.)
  - DrillShopper 1y ago
    > things like focus, graphical glitches and performance are not Wayland issues, just application bugs Perhaps the Wayland developers could help developers transitioning from X11 to fix those issues because those issues make Wayland look bad/unusable.
    - arghwhat 1y ago
      The Wayland developers also include major toolkit authors, and a bunch of them contribute far and wide. But, to most users, switching to Wayland just means that everything got smoother, and easier ot use, with everything working. Even X11 applications will work just fine. Even if Wayland has an omission that is greatly upsetting to an individual, the X11 mode of the app will usually work exactly like it always have without leaving the Wayland server. Anyone using extremes like "unusable" (or "perfect"!) is not providing meaningful information and can safely be ignored.
  - superkuh 1y ago
    It is clear that in the article and this comment thread your claim is the opposite that of the kicad developers. Your comment attempted to make it seem like their article was in agreement with you. That was a lie you wrote rather than actually saying what you meant: that you disagreed with the kicad developers. It's hard to believe you are arguing in good faith after such a disengenous start. Especially given your wild perception of the post-fork reverts of all the code which obviously weren't spurred by code quality but instead the fork itself. edit additionally: your major re-write of your original post changing this can be hidden from most but I, and others, saw them and responded to the original with quotes in our own comments. This is more evidence for bad faith activity.
    - arghwhat 1y ago
      What in the world are you on about? Editing a comment for clarification is not bad faith. It avoids misunderstanding and helps those reading it, even if some have already read an earlier version of it. It makes it sound as if you consider comments a battle, with changes being cheating or foul play, which... Is just wrong. Nothing about my comment was bad faith or disengenious, nor did I say that I agreed with KiCad developers. I just said that, and will stand by, that it is erroneous to read their claims of e.g. performance issues when using their wayland platform code as being an issue with Wayland. If you write new code that is slow, you don't start by blaming your CPU, then your compiler, then your OS, and Wayland is generally known to perform better than X11 by virtue of being designed by people also working on the GPU driver stack.
delfinom 1y ago
Window restoration was not recently released, it was put in as experimental and it'll probably be another 5 years before it's available on stable distros as a non-experimental flag protocol. >A significant portion of the problems listed, e.g. performance, "unpredictable focus", glitches, freezes, etc., will generally be purely KiCad bugs The issues have been looked into and they are purely Wayland bugs. If things work on Windows, macOS and X11 without any platform specific ifdefs, the problem is Wayland ;)
- arghwhat 1y ago
  > Window restoration was not recently released, it was put in as experimental and it'll probably be another 5 years before it's available on stable distros as a non-experimental flag protocol. That's not how Wayland protocol maturity works. Protocols of interest are picked up immediately and graduate to stable after wide adoption. The naming was also changed to "staging" instead of "unstable" to clarify this. (Case in point, linux-dmabuf was only recently stabilized, and many protocols in mainstream use are not "stable"). > The issues have been looked into and they are purely Wayland bugs. Bugs reproducible only with their Wayland platform code ≠ Bugs in Wayland. > If things work on Windows, macOS and X11 without any platform specific ifdefs, the problem is Wayland ;) Not at all how things work, no. :)
  - IshKebab 1y ago
    > Protocols of interest are picked up immediately and graduate to stable after wide adoption. Yeah... good luck changing your protocol after it's been "staging" for 5 years and everyone has adopted it.
    - arghwhat 1y ago
      Again, not how Wayland protocol maturity works. All released protocols are versioned, and do not break existing clients. Servers offer a maximum version number for their protocols, and clients can request any version up until that maximum version. If they request an older version, the server will behave in accordance to the older specification. A staging protocol may end up being replaced and slowly deprecated, or have more breaking changes in new versions than you would find in a stable protocol, but a client using a particular protocol can rest assured that a server offering the protocol will adhere to the same version of the protocol contract the application was written against.
varispeed 1y ago
But from the post it sounds more like Wayland is just enshittification in open source fashion. Fewer options traded for...? What is the point of Wayland?
- dekhn 1y ago
  The point of wayland was that the developers of X11 with the greatest experience concluded they no longer wanted to work on Xorg, and designed a new protocol taking into account their experience as well as knowledge of how desktops have changed over the past 40 years. If there is enshittification, it's intentional on the part of the developers, and I doubt they think it's enshittification so much as sage design choices made designing an architecture they think will eventually run on billions of devices.
  - ur-whale 1y ago
    So the guys responsible for the giant wreckage that is X11 are now in charge of wreckage 2.0 No wonder.
phkahler 1y ago
>> Others are feature requests that there were recently released protocols for e.g. window restoration and cursor warping, but with adoption needing to pick up. IMHO window restoration is the job of the DE. Implement it once there, not in every application.
- arghwhat 1y ago
  That's why there was a protocol released to do just that, by having the client set a unique tag when it creates its windows so the display server can recognize when a window has come back. Wayland in general is all about leaving stuff up to the display server, with the display server representing the current user and their current window management preferences.

superkuh 1y ago

>it's easy for others to read this and conflate "problems with application's Wayland support" as "problems with Wayland". Yes, it's easy because that's explicitly what they say. >The following problems are known issues in Wayland protocols or their implementation in desktop compositors, window managers or other layers in the display stack that are beyond our ability to resolve: So we have two opposite claims. One from the developers of kicad in this write-up with examples and one from you above.

arghwhat 1y ago
> So we have two opposite claims. One from the developers of kicad in this write-up with examples and one from you above. You have the organizations maintaining entire Linux distributions with countless applications they support giving their vote of confidence based on their experiences. You have the organizations backing and developing Wayland. You have all the developers of Xorg ditching it and working on Wayland instead (the person vocally claiming to pick up the slack recently had almost all their work reverted when it was found to have been completely broken). That's a lot of people voting with their time (and in some cases, money) on Wayland and its capabilities. So no it's not my claim that Wayland works vs. KiCad devs, it's the claim of everyone that actually have skin in the display server game. (They will also agree that some features are missing, but things like focus, graphical glitches and performance are not Wayland issues, just application bugs.)
- DrillShopper 1y ago
  > things like focus, graphical glitches and performance are not Wayland issues, just application bugs Perhaps the Wayland developers could help developers transitioning from X11 to fix those issues because those issues make Wayland look bad/unusable.
  - arghwhat 1y ago
    The Wayland developers also include major toolkit authors, and a bunch of them contribute far and wide. But, to most users, switching to Wayland just means that everything got smoother, and easier ot use, with everything working. Even X11 applications will work just fine. Even if Wayland has an omission that is greatly upsetting to an individual, the X11 mode of the app will usually work exactly like it always have without leaving the Wayland server. Anyone using extremes like "unusable" (or "perfect"!) is not providing meaningful information and can safely be ignored.
- superkuh 1y ago
  It is clear that in the article and this comment thread your claim is the opposite that of the kicad developers. Your comment attempted to make it seem like their article was in agreement with you. That was a lie you wrote rather than actually saying what you meant: that you disagreed with the kicad developers. It's hard to believe you are arguing in good faith after such a disengenous start. Especially given your wild perception of the post-fork reverts of all the code which obviously weren't spurred by code quality but instead the fork itself. edit additionally: your major re-write of your original post changing this can be hidden from most but I, and others, saw them and responded to the original with quotes in our own comments. This is more evidence for bad faith activity.
  - arghwhat 1y ago
    What in the world are you on about? Editing a comment for clarification is not bad faith. It avoids misunderstanding and helps those reading it, even if some have already read an earlier version of it. It makes it sound as if you consider comments a battle, with changes being cheating or foul play, which... Is just wrong. Nothing about my comment was bad faith or disengenious, nor did I say that I agreed with KiCad developers. I just said that, and will stand by, that it is erroneous to read their claims of e.g. performance issues when using their wayland platform code as being an issue with Wayland. If you write new code that is slow, you don't start by blaming your CPU, then your compiler, then your OS, and Wayland is generally known to perform better than X11 by virtue of being designed by people also working on the GPU driver stack.

delfinom 1y ago

Window restoration was not recently released, it was put in as experimental and it'll probably be another 5 years before it's available on stable distros as a non-experimental flag protocol. >A significant portion of the problems listed, e.g. performance, "unpredictable focus", glitches, freezes, etc., will generally be purely KiCad bugs The issues have been looked into and they are purely Wayland bugs. If things work on Windows, macOS and X11 without any platform specific ifdefs, the problem is Wayland ;)

arghwhat 1y ago
> Window restoration was not recently released, it was put in as experimental and it'll probably be another 5 years before it's available on stable distros as a non-experimental flag protocol. That's not how Wayland protocol maturity works. Protocols of interest are picked up immediately and graduate to stable after wide adoption. The naming was also changed to "staging" instead of "unstable" to clarify this. (Case in point, linux-dmabuf was only recently stabilized, and many protocols in mainstream use are not "stable"). > The issues have been looked into and they are purely Wayland bugs. Bugs reproducible only with their Wayland platform code ≠ Bugs in Wayland. > If things work on Windows, macOS and X11 without any platform specific ifdefs, the problem is Wayland ;) Not at all how things work, no. :)
- IshKebab 1y ago
  > Protocols of interest are picked up immediately and graduate to stable after wide adoption. Yeah... good luck changing your protocol after it's been "staging" for 5 years and everyone has adopted it.
  - arghwhat 1y ago
    Again, not how Wayland protocol maturity works. All released protocols are versioned, and do not break existing clients. Servers offer a maximum version number for their protocols, and clients can request any version up until that maximum version. If they request an older version, the server will behave in accordance to the older specification. A staging protocol may end up being replaced and slowly deprecated, or have more breaking changes in new versions than you would find in a stable protocol, but a client using a particular protocol can rest assured that a server offering the protocol will adhere to the same version of the protocol contract the application was written against.

varispeed 1y ago

But from the post it sounds more like Wayland is just enshittification in open source fashion. Fewer options traded for...? What is the point of Wayland?

dekhn 1y ago
The point of wayland was that the developers of X11 with the greatest experience concluded they no longer wanted to work on Xorg, and designed a new protocol taking into account their experience as well as knowledge of how desktops have changed over the past 40 years. If there is enshittification, it's intentional on the part of the developers, and I doubt they think it's enshittification so much as sage design choices made designing an architecture they think will eventually run on billions of devices.
- ur-whale 1y ago
  So the guys responsible for the giant wreckage that is X11 are now in charge of wreckage 2.0 No wonder.

phkahler 1y ago

>> Others are feature requests that there were recently released protocols for e.g. window restoration and cursor warping, but with adoption needing to pick up. IMHO window restoration is the job of the DE. Implement it once there, not in every application.

arghwhat 1y ago
That's why there was a protocol released to do just that, by having the client set a unique tag when it creates its windows so the display server can recognize when a window has come back. Wayland in general is all about leaving stuff up to the display server, with the display server representing the current user and their current window management preferences.